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American sailing warships with no plans or records

John Adams Alliance General Greene Enterprise Congress

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#21
Talos

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I have that monograph, it’s a really excellent one. There’s a section devoted in the beginning of it devoted to that. As I recall, he had the draught of a similar-size East Indiaman from the same area and another larger one. The gallery is pretty large. I wonder if some of that is the legacy of the larger ship he was working off of. Even if is that size, would they have gone to the expense and time to reduce or remove it during her refit? Would JPJ’s ego have allowed it?

 

With Columbia, that’s pretty early in her construction. I’m not sure what percentage she was at in 1827 and how she was suspended at until her completion in the 1830s. I wonder if he meant the rake of the bow. We know this was variable, with Santee having much reduced stem and stern post rake.


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#22
uss frolick

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The round-sterned USS Brandywine was the second built, but the first launched ahead of the older square-sterned sister USS Potomac, and the sister USS Columbia was constructed on Brandywine's ways. But Potomac and Columbia were both completed in normal, quick time, but sat on the ways seasoning until needed. Both were complete by 1827.

 

Jones superintended the construction of the America, 74, in Portsmouth, NH, in 1782, and ordered the heavy stern galleries left off.


Edited by uss frolick, 07 June 2015 - 05:17 PM.

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#23
CharlieZardoz

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It's a great interpretation of the Duc, much better than that awful Aeropiccola kit. :) Also I'm surprised no kit was ever made of a Potomac/Brandywine class frigate/sloop.  Considering how many of them were made they were kind of the backbone of the sailing navy for some time.  A little re-working/bashing and you could build the set. ;)



#24
Talos

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Ah, alright, thanks frolick. I wasn't sure what state Columbia had been left in. I presume she was pretty much boarded over and sealed up for the ten years until launching?

 

And yeah, I was thinking about the quarter galleries when I wrote that. Sorry, really need to not post that early in the morning, I'm not a morning person! I wasn't thinking of the "balcony", which was being removed from many ships at the time anyway. I believe Victory had her's off in a refit well before Trafalger.

 

@Charlie: Any US frigate that doesn't start with Con- doesn't get any love at all. Not just the Potomac/Brandywines (which I love for the round stern, it really stands out. Potomac excepted, of course), but the wartime Java-class that was mentioned in another thread. Also the final pair, Santee and Sabine, which were the only US 44s outside of the rebuilt Congress to have any real length changes, both being stretched 15 feet during construction.

 

Speaking of those two, whenever I get around to redrawing the draught in Chapelle's book of Santee, I want to do a version replicating Sabine as well, which had the original rake to her stem and stern that the older ships had (Santee's were both reduced when she was constructed, while Sabine's were the same as the oddball St Lawrence's). Chapelle mentioned a host of coversion proposals I'd like to do side views of, including additional stretches and cutting them down into huge corvettes. I also had in mind seeing what they would look converted into steamers. Anyone got any more information on proposals for those two? Especially any additional conversions I didn't touch on.


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#25
CharlieZardoz

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That sounds great Talos!  I would definitely like to see what notes you come up with when you get to replicating those ships.  The poor Santee. Lasted as a training ship along with Constitution for so many years, yet no one thought of preserving her.  It's true that other than Essex and the sloop Constellation, other than revolutionary ships not much love is given to the American frigates though sounds like we all plan on changing that ;)  I like the Java class as well.  It's all part of an evolutionary line that began with Constitution and ended with Congress it all fits together and the evolution of design is quite fascinating.  I'd love to see conjectures of what might have been had the sailing frigate kept evolving in a world with no ironclads. :)


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#26
trippwj

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Following are notes on the Pennsylvania and the Santisima Trinidad in the Humphreys notebook (date to sometime after 1829)

 

Dimensions of the Santissima Trinidad, Spanish three decker – in English measure.

Length between perpendiculars 204 feet 9 inches, beam moulded 54 feet

 

Tonnage of Ship of the Line Pennsylvania Made out for Comm Stewart- June 1829

Keel for Tonnage Custom House Measurement 183 feet

Beam for Do Do Do 57 ft 9

Burthen in tons Custom House Measurement 3212 18/95 (say 3241 tons corrected tonnage)

Burthen in Tons Sheer carpenters (old) measurement 2940 83/95 Tons

Length between perpendiculars from the aft side of Rabbet of Stem to fore side of Rabbet of post at crossbeam 210 feet

Deduct Thickness of apron & Transom 3 feet 6 inches will leave the length of Gun deck 206 feet 6 inches.

Length of Spar Deck 220 feet 8 inches Tread of the deck.

Length between perpendiculars 210 feet

Beam moulded 56 ft 9

Depth of Hold 22 ft 3

Length of Keel Carpenters tonnage 173 feet 6 inches

Beam Do Do 56 feet 9 inches


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Wayne

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#27
Talos

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Thanks, Charlie. I was waiting to do the larger plans like most of the frigates and all the ships of the line, because they were spread across two pages. Last month I got a cheap, old copy of the book to take apart. Because of the discussion here, I finally got around to doing it, should start working on a frigate drawing soon, probably the base Santee. Speaking of the Constellation, this makes me want to see how she looks wth a second deck like Macedonian had originally. Twelve feet longer (a foot longer than the 44s), she should be able to carry the armament of a 36-gun frigate well. Hmm....must draw.

 

@Wayne: Nice. Thanks for that. Is there any mention of Royal Sovereign's plans in there? Chapelle mentions him having a copy of that draught too.


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#28
CharlieZardoz

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Coincidentally have you ever watched the 1991 film Ironclad's with Virginia Madsen?  The Cumberland's stern is all wrong, square like a box and with no aft cannon's lol.  The Congress was pretty decent as was the Minnesota though the Pawnee looked nothing like it did in real life. :)


Edited by CharlieZardoz, 09 June 2015 - 06:22 AM.


#29
CharlieZardoz

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I found photo's of this model, not sure where it is displayed but it says Boston 1776 however looking at the model she very much like the 1799 Boston. Could be wrong though take a look at the plans and see what you think. :)

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#30
trippwj

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Any clue as to the age of the model? very nice model, but unless somewhat contemporary (18th or early 19th century), it is just one builders best guess at what she looked like. This model looks much newer than that.

Wayne

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#31
Talos

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I was trying to track down the provenance of the model, all I was able to find was an auction listing for it from a couple years ago. I agree with Wayne and think it's much more modern than contemporary.

 

https://www.liveauct...-frigate-boston


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#32
CharlieZardoz

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It's definitely not the 1776 frigate in my opinion.  The design of it doesn't look like a 24 gun frigate the builder probably took the plans from the later Boston as a source.  A 1776 small frigate would look much for like the Virginia with 12 gun ports instead of 13.  Nice model though not sure if the stern is fiction but it's believable.


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#33
CharlieZardoz

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Just out of curiosity I was wondering if anyone could answer this question about the Lexington.  Lumberyard/Seaways has one kit that looks rather different from most depictions of the brig and was wondering if there was more evidence towards one rather than the other.  Some have poop decks but most look like the larger brig. I must admit the larger brig looks more attractive overall but that doesn't mean it's historically accurate. ;)

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Edited by CharlieZardoz, 12 June 2015 - 04:20 AM.

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#34
Talos

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I don't have any specific answers for Lexington, but the hull style on the left, without the navy head and with the poop deck really reminds me of the schooner Marblehead on a larger scale.

 

1419958485_4198_FT0_marble_head_-_import


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#35
CharlieZardoz

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Well she was a purchase from the Dutch West Indies so I imagine she was probably hastily converted to a warship like many of the Continental ships were (rather than a proper naval brig).  Seeing as how she was captured by the British I am wondering if official lines were drawn and if she was renamed after her capture (since I can't find her on the maritime collections website). If not this guy Dr Feldman from the Nautical Research Guild seems to have done a lot of research on this ship and I imagine his rendition (the upper photo) is more in keeping with what she must have really looked like.


Edited by CharlieZardoz, 12 June 2015 - 02:10 PM.


#36
Talos

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This is all Winfield has on Lexington. Silverstone doesn't have anything after her capture, just details on her service life before that. Not sure if she was ever taken into RN service.

 

 

Lexington (brig Wild Duck), 14 x 4pdrs. Taken 20.9.1777 by Alert.


Edited by Talos, 12 June 2015 - 03:33 PM.


#37
CharlieZardoz

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I suspect she wasn't taken to RN as well.  Thank you for the info and thoughts on the matter.  I'll probably invest in Feldman's Lexington at some point in the future and get a better understanding of the work done.  I also have a 3/16" plan set copy that was drawn by Charles G. Davis for The Built Up Ship Model which is what I suspect the Aeropiccola and Mamoli kits are using as a basis.  It'll be a few years before I get to it but I suspect it'll be a fun project to research and work on. :)


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#38
Chuck Seiler

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Dr. Clay Feldman is a master modeler in his own right and former owner/publisher of Ships in Scale. He has done work/research on Fair American as well.

He has done extensive research into LEXINGTON. He has discussed the Davis model and why it is not correct. Several years ago (maybe 10, by now) when he first came out with the LEXINGTON model, he had an online information about the building...it was a group project. I believe most of that info is included in the Feldman package on LEX available from SiS. If you are interested in LEX, it is a must.
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Chuck Seiler
San Diego Ship Modelers Guild
Nautical Research Guild

 
Current Build:
Continental Sloop PROVIDENCE
Continental Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (1/2" Scale Model Shipways Kit)
Colonial Schooner SULTANA (scratch from Model Expo Plans)


On Hold:
Colonial Pinnace VIRGINIA (1607)(scratch)
18th Century Longboat (Model Expo Kit)
 
Completed:
Missouri Riverboat FAR WEST (1876) Scratch
1776 Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (Scratch 1/4 scale-Model Shipways plans)


#39
CharlieZardoz

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Thank you Chuck I do sincerely appreciate your input on the matter.  Will definitely check the Lex out during my journey through ship modeling as I find the continental navy and it's history quite fascinating and enigmatic.

 

Charlie


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#40
CaptArmstrong

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Three John Adams 1799 plans do survive, enough for a complete reconstruction. Chapelle missed them.

 

1. Original body lines, pre 1829: National Archives, presumably (published in Charleston's Maritime Heritage, Coker.)

 

2. Out board profile, which includes partial inboard profile, partial waterlines (or are they diagonal projections?), as designed, 1/4" scale

Peabody Museum, Fox Papers. Note twenty-four broadside ports, but with no bridle port. The latter was added, along with a five feet extension of keel in Charleston. Not labeled as JA in Fox Papers.

 

3. Half-breadth of Decks, all, with stowage, 1/8th scale, as converted to a corvette, circa 1807, Fox papers. Position of projected stern chase ports indicate an original six window design, with ports in the two and five windows, with the others planked over. All they did was remove the spar deck in 1807-08. Shows length, mast and gunport position as built. (Labeled as "Decks Chesapeake" in Fox Papers, by some long dead, blind, crack-smoking staff volunteer!!)

 

I forgot one!

 

4. There is an inboard profile plan from the 1850s showing her final configuration. I've seen it, but I don't have a copy, from the NA, that shows ten ports aside - down from the 1829 rebuild's twelve - a full projecting stem-post, and a sketch of her bust figurehead.

What a find!!   :dancetl6: How much decorative detail is there? (partial transom in 1. and 3? headrails in all four?) does it bear any similarities to the 24 gun ship of 1799 (figure 22, pg.155 of the blue cover edition of History of the American Sailing Navy) found by Chapelle? Also one confusing point, I thought that while both Adams and John Adams were cut down prior to the War of 1812, only Adams was lengthened? 


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