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Ship model kits which may or may not be based historical vessels

shine sharke resolution hunter

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#1
CharlieZardoz

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Hi everyone! I wanted to start a new topic dealing with a few weird kits I've found in my research which sort of look like they've been based on actual plans from some sort of archive yet I can't seem to find any concise evidence that they existed or are just made up by the kit companies.   My thoughts are that a lot of these older kits were made by some ship builder decades ago and then sold to the kit companies who over time lost track of what plans they were based on.  But I am convinced that for most of these listed some real set of plans existed, possibly for a generic unidentified ship since I have to imagine it being a lot easier to make a model based on a historical plan than just made up in ones head. So this forum is an attempt to try and determine which plans (if any) were used for these models as a basis.

 

First up are two kits by Mantua HMS Sharke and HMS Shine. Sharke looks vaguely like the plan from the national maritime museum and Shine looks sort of like the armed Bermuda sloop yet has two masts.

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Edited by CharlieZardoz, 29 September 2015 - 08:47 PM.

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#2
CharlieZardoz

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Next up is Corel's HMS Resolution which I can't find any info on anywhere.

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#3
CharlieZardoz

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Next up is HMS Lyde by Euromodel which is supposedly 1/70 scale at 34" yet looks very much like the Halifax which would only be like 19" at that scale.  Another one where I can't find any info on.

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#4
CharlieZardoz

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Then we have Mamoli's Hunter which could very well be a generic cutter similar to the Sherbourne however again curious what plan this one was based off of if any.

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#5
CharlieZardoz

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Last (for now) we have the Golden Star by Mantua. Again lets have fun with this, a bit of detective work could help determine the intent of these modeler's of yore.  Also feel free to contribute other kits that you may be curious about though a few have been discussed in prior postings :)

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#6
mtaylor

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My favorite in this type of discussion is AL's Constellation.  Billed as the 1797 frigate.  It's not.  The hull is from the 1854 Sloop of War (and are reasonably accurate) and the deck plans, etc., come from the way she sat in the Baltimore harbor for years.  For more info, read "Fouled Anchors....." here's the PDF: http://www.google.co...103627116,d.eXY


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Mark

"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me


Current Build:

Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0

Past Builds:
Triton Cross-Section
USS Constellaton (kit bashed to 1854 Sloop of War (Gallery) Build Log
Wasa (Gallery)


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#7
Brian the extraordinaire

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you can also add to the list - HMS Ajax by Euromodel kits. Its a lovely model but a total work of fantasy. 


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#8
CharlieZardoz

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That's true Ajax should be a 3rd rate not a frigate like they show.  I also think Mamoli made up a kit as the HMS Surprise and nothing to do with the historic ship but the latter mamoli kits were all junk anyway.  But like I said some of these kits may have origin stories elsewhere and are then bought by the model companies, repackaged into something totally different and given a name a fake back story (like AL's Independence).  While I am sure quite a few of them are total fiction a few that are listed above like the Resolution, or something like Mantua's Peregrine Galley do look like they were based on something historical so I'm just trying to track down what they were actually meant to be.


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#9
mtaylor

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I think many are based on the drawings Chapman.   The HMS Unicorn is based on them and company's history for her says that he designed it in 1700... A bit of a stretch... but it looks to be a mix of a late 1700's English "Unicorn" and the French "Licorne" as for awhile she was listed in some records as the translated "Unicorn".


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Mark

"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me


Current Build:

Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0

Past Builds:
Triton Cross-Section
USS Constellaton (kit bashed to 1854 Sloop of War (Gallery) Build Log
Wasa (Gallery)


Member of the Nautical Research Guild


#10
grsjax

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"Shine looks sort of like the armed Bermuda sloop yet has two masts."

 

Entirely possible.  It wasn't unknown for a cutter or sloop hull to be remasted and rigged as a schooner or brig.

 

BTW The smallest fully rigged brig I can find reference to was only 50' overall and it worked for a long time as a merchantman around Britian.


Edited by grsjax, 30 September 2015 - 02:14 AM.

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My advice and comments are always worth what you paid for them.


#11
CharlieZardoz

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The Hms Unicorn is based off of an admiralty plan (or at the very least a convincing reconstruction) for the Lyme class frigate of 1748 and considered one of the first "true" frigates. But here is an example of a kit where the source is identifiable and at least there is some rationale as to it's creation though you may be right Mark a lot of these kits may be based on Chatham drawings as well. As for Constellation I am at a loss as to why no one has built a better kit of the sloop of war she gets no love, lol.

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#12
jbshan

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There has been so much controversy about Constellation's appearance that it isn't that surprising there has been no kit of her.  For years there was a group pushing for her inclusion in the 'original' frigate club, in competition with Constitution.  If the link above (which didn't work for me) is the 'Fouled Anchors' article read it and you will find this group forged documents in their attempt to legitimize their claims.  Part of the work of this group included remaking the hull into a 1790s frigate.  In doing so, they butchered up the hull.  Now that it has been settled that the vessel currently at Baltimore is the 1853 vessel, the curators are trying to restore her to that appearance.  With all that going on, possibly manufacturers were reluctant to invest in a vessel in flux.  There is a kit by one of the European companies, but I'm not sure how faithful it is to any version of the ship.


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#13
CharlieZardoz

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I think the controversy is largely settled now.  And the way the she looks in Baltimore now is a lot closer to her original appearance than ever before so really I imagine a kit could be made using original plans and reference her current appearance. I do believe that the majority of model builders who sell kits to the companies have a personal preference to ships in that 1750-1810 bracket which is of course considered the high age of sail and anything after sort of gets the shrug lol. :)


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#14
jbshan

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"a personal preference to ships in that 1750-1810 bracket"

Well, I do, fer shure.  There is probably a marketing bonus if you can say 'the famous ship of the war of 1812' rather than 'the last purely sailing warship built to use up excess timber stocks in 1853'.


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#15
mtaylor

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Part of the problem with the Constellation is the some drawings were burned (allegedly) when the Brits burned Washingtion  and then others were destroyed by that group in Baltimore.  No one is really sure what happened to all of them.


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Mark

"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me


Current Build:

Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0

Past Builds:
Triton Cross-Section
USS Constellaton (kit bashed to 1854 Sloop of War (Gallery) Build Log
Wasa (Gallery)


Member of the Nautical Research Guild


#16
CharlieZardoz

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Ah now that's being harsh. What did the HMS Diana do other than sail to Egypt and get sold to the dutch?  Doesn't make her any less of an impressive model but one could easily rationalize a USS Congress 1841 kit or USS Hartford both with very relevant historical significance and would make equally excellent models.  I think (without trying to sound rude) that there is a bit of prejudice attached to the last age of sail kinda like the age where all the majesty went away (no more figureheads, gildings all that piratey looking stuff) and things got weird (paddles, smoke stacks and various Frankenstein ideas). I mean one cannot argue the works of art that British ship of the lines like Victory or Vanguard were/are and how they make gorgeous models but maybe I just have a thing for the underdog I happen to find all that 19th century tech fascinating as well.  :)


Edited by CharlieZardoz, 01 October 2015 - 03:32 AM.

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#17
CharlieZardoz

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Anyone care to offer a proper explanation of what the Chatham drawings actually are? I think the Unicorn which I posted above is a Chatham draught though wondering if there is a book that has a collection of said works. :)

#18
mtaylor

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You mean Chapman?   I recall reading somewhere, he wasn't so much a designer but for lack of a better word, a manager of a shipyard....???   He was well traveled for his time and made lots of drawings of the ships he saw and apparently, when he could, copied drawings.  His book is basically types of ship. I really have no idea if they're accurate or not. 


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Mark

"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me


Current Build:

Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0

Past Builds:
Triton Cross-Section
USS Constellaton (kit bashed to 1854 Sloop of War (Gallery) Build Log
Wasa (Gallery)


Member of the Nautical Research Guild


#19
jbshan

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Dover Publications did a volume of Chapman's draughts.  The Plates are at a reduced scale, but the printing is quite clear.  The title is 'Architectura Navalis Mercatoria'.  His complete name is Fredrik Henrik Af Chapman.  The Volume was first printed in 1768.


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#20
CharlieZardoz

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Thanks ill look into it (wonder where I got Chatham from lol). With any luck some of those kits above will be represented. More books to buy then yay! :)


Edited by CharlieZardoz, 02 October 2015 - 01:35 PM.

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