Jump to content

Welcome to Model Ship World
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Ship model kits which may or may not be based historical vessels

shine sharke resolution hunter

  • Please log in to reply
71 replies to this topic

#21
CharlieZardoz

CharlieZardoz
  • Members
  • 795 posts
  • LocationQueens New York

Is this the one you speak of?

Attached Thumbnails

  • 51RV7ATS5CL1.jpg

  • avsjerome2003 and Landlubber Mike like this

#22
daves

daves
  • Members
  • 1,299 posts

I think we are mixing apples and oranges here. The ship model kits are considerd part of the toy and hobby industry. They do not have to be historically accurate they do not even have to be real. Take for example the Star Ship Enterprise it actually is not a real ship but people love building models of it. Just like people love to build an old pirate ship model it does not have to be a real ship it can be totally made up. What goes through the head of designers is fantasy and the market the product is intended for. If i were to be approached to design a ship with say a steampunk theme the first thing that comes to mind is the Nautilus and the father of steampunk Jules Verns. My creation would be based on part fact, part research and in part total fantasy, this is what model ship kits are. If your looking for real historic ships and or well researched models you looking in the wrong genra. Model ship building like everything else begins at the level of toys then a hobby then into a serious hobby from here an art form where the builder does serious research and builds from sometimes exotic materials etc. building hobby kits has nothing to do with models built for museum or historical display or for research purposes like the model shop at Texas A&M.
You may wonder why don't manufactures make historical accurate kits? Well it is all about time and money, the people who work on the prototype are toy designers not historians or researchers. They are given basic information and told "make it look something like this". The finished product is for the toy and hobby market not for academic circles or the art world. If you find yourself getting serious about model ship building perhaps it is time to do your own research, draw your own plans, and build from scratch because you will not find that level in the kit genra.


Edited by daves, 02 October 2015 - 03:46 PM.

  • dgbot, avsjerome2003, bogeygolpher and 5 others like this

#23
Landlubber Mike

Landlubber Mike
  • Members
  • 1,614 posts
  • LocationWashington D.C.

That's the one Charlie.

 

For what it's worth, the Unicorn and the Lyme were members of the Lyme class and the first "true frigates" as has been said earlier.  Ian, John and many other Unicorn kit builders and I have done quite a bit of research.  I purchased the Lyme plans, and the plans in the Chapman book above for the Unicorn match up quite well.  So, I think that the Chapman plans for the Unicorn are pretty accurate.

 

Where I think the Corel kit fails is in the various details - particularly with the deck plan and the very narrow waist.  Ian and others have suspected that Corel sorta merged the details of later period ships with the Lyme class, coming up with a model that is not particularly accurate.  That being said, with a little research, I think the Corel kit can be improved to come up with a historically accurate Lyme class vessel.


  • riverboat, JohnB40, Canute and 1 other like this

Mike

 

Current builds:  Amati/Victory Pegasus  MS Charles W. Morgan  Euromodel La Renommèe

 

Completed builds :  Caldercraft Brig Badger   Amati Hannah - Ship in Bottle

 

Terminated build:  HMS Lyme (based on Corel Unicorn)  

 

On the shelf:  Euromodel Friedrich Wilhelm zu Pferde

 

Future scratch builds:  HMS Lyme (from NMM plans); Le Gros Ventre (from Ancre monographs)


#24
CharlieZardoz

CharlieZardoz
  • Members
  • 795 posts
  • LocationQueens New York

Mike: Just bought the book off amazon for a whopping $9 ;)

 

Daves: I do agree that most of the kits sold by the model companies are hardly well detailed and quite a few are fictitious, however I do believe that many are based on some sort of plan or draught that the original model builder used as a basis.  It's my strong suspicion that model kit companies function in the past kinda like they do now where a company would contract a model builder to build a ship or chose from a bunch of ships already built they would ask for something like "a British schooner from the 18th century" or "French cutter from the 17th century" or something like that.  Once they got the model they would likely want to give it a name (regardless of whether it's historical or not) and some sort of back story. Add to the 50 years and a few change of hands and the intent of the original model maker is all but forgotten but a little research and a keen eye and I think one can track down what resources were used.

 

My want in this forum post is partly for my own research since many of these kits are small ships which I've considered building somewhere down the line and for me at least I'd like to invest the time in models which have a historical counterpart. As with Sultana I plan on doing thorough research on each model ship I build so as to know as much as I can about the ship's history and detailing, etc.  Doing research I was able to track down (impostors) like AL's Independence which is really just the Halifax slightly redressed, or Constructo's Enterprise which appears to be off the draught of the Vixen with a few details added.  But research can also help determine ships that were based on actual draughts, the Revenue cutters Alert and Ranger which are unnamed in Chapelle's books, or Caldercraft's Bader ex Pitt the admiralty draught is available online, or The Albatros or Harvey which are based off of the same plans found in Chapelle's book on Baltimore Clippers.  Same as what Mike said above about the Unicorn a little research led me to the Chapman book I just ordered so in the end whether or not I build any of them I'm learning more about period ships so that now I can just look at a model like Mamoli's Blue Shadow and know it to be fantasy. :)


Edited by CharlieZardoz, 02 October 2015 - 07:07 PM.

  • Canute likes this

#25
trippwj

trippwj

    Scullery Maid

  • Members
  • 3,492 posts
  • LocationEastport, Maine, USA
There is a (Swedish?) website with extensive info on Chapman, including high res of his drawings (I think it is Chapman.net). Official site, I think part of a museum.

Chapman was quite a character and worth reading up on.
  • mtaylor, dgbot, Canute and 1 other like this

Wayne

Neither should a ship rely on one small anchor, nor should life rest on a single hope.
Epictetus


#26
Stockholm tar

Stockholm tar
  • Members
  • 1,040 posts
  • LocationStockholm

Frederick Henrik af Chapman was one of the first ship designers, if not the first, to base ship design on scientific principles. He is thought a great deal of, not only here in Sweden.

 

There are some beautiful models of some of his ships, many in large scale, in Stockholm Maritime Museum. Most of his ships were good sailers although that, unfortunately, couldn't have been said for the Royal yacht Amphion which he also designed and which by all accounts didn't live up to expectations. He was much better at warships. Amphion's stern and cabin are preserved and on display in the museum. Besides modernising Sweden's offshore fleet, he built her inshore galley fleet and also many of the dockyard buildings at Karlskrona naval base. These are still in existance, including the mast crane – a photo of which I seem to remember appeared on an MSW thread recently under, I think, 'Amazing Photographs'.

 

I have been meaning to get the Dover publication, but I do have another interesting book on Chapman. This is 'F.H. Chapman – the First Naval Architect and his Work', by Daniel G Harris. Harris is Canadian, but his wife is Swedish and he studied Chapman for much of his life. The book was first printed in 1989. I don't know if there have been subsequent revisions, but it is probably available second hand. It is a first class read if you are interested.


Edited by Stockholm tar, 04 October 2015 - 07:52 AM.

  • trippwj, mtaylor, avsjerome2003 and 5 others like this

Kester

 

Current builds: Sherbourne (Caldercraft) scale – 1/64th;

 

Statsraad Lehmkuhl (half model) 1/8th" – 1'.

 

Victory Bow Section (Panart/Mantua) scale – 1/78th  (on hold).

 

Previous build: Bluenose ll (Billings) scale – 1/100th.


#27
jbshan

jbshan
  • Members
  • 1,134 posts
  • LocationWest Coast of NH

That's the book, Charlie.  $9 is a pretty good price.

I read somewhere that the 'typical European kit' was meant to be displayed on a mantle as part of the decor and that the mix of woods was because wood tones were popular.  As long as it looked like a ship that was all that mattered.  The back story was concocted to attract the buyer in the store, not to fulfill any sort of historical accuracy.  To my mind, better to do your own research into a prototype that actually existed than waste time on those 'decorative' models.


  • mtaylor, Canute and CharlieZardoz like this

#28
CharlieZardoz

CharlieZardoz
  • Members
  • 795 posts
  • LocationQueens New York

I see the website you mean Wayne, I could get lost in there lol 8) Thank you everyone for the explanation of Chapman I think I understand better now what he represents to ship history, pretty amazing stuff!  Swedish ships in general are pretty amazing, I've seen a few books, definitely do not get enough credit in their design and contribution to naval evolution.  And yeah I have quite a few ships planned to be built down the line so probably best to simply ignore these "decorative" models though I do have a spreadsheet of all model kits and their significance so if I do wind up finding some more information about them I'll post it on this forum :)

 

For example I can already see that Hunter was based on this Chapman drawing.

Attached Thumbnails

  • 601.JPG

Edited by CharlieZardoz, 03 October 2015 - 03:19 PM.

  • mtaylor, dgbot, avsjerome2003 and 1 other like this

#29
CharlieZardoz

CharlieZardoz
  • Members
  • 795 posts
  • LocationQueens New York

Also just out of fun curiosity I found this one, the HMS Racehorse, which isn't based on the 1757 ship plans (of which there are none), but instead of the 1781 ship that was a purchase.  Also the scale 1:47 is an error since at 23" that would make the ship tiny and the draught appears to be over 100' probably closer to 75 or 96 scale even? :)

Attached Thumbnails

  • hms_racehorse_7931.jpg
  • racehorse.jpg

  • trippwj, mtaylor, Canute and 1 other like this

#30
jbshan

jbshan
  • Members
  • 1,134 posts
  • LocationWest Coast of NH

I make the gundeck length to be something like 108 ft. on the draught.  Any length given for a model is likely to be from the tip of the bowsprit to the taffrail or tip of the boom, whichever is longer, so you know how much room you need on your mantle.  Sometimes they will call this length over all or O. A.  This is not a measurement ever used in the period and you won't find it on any document.


  • mtaylor, Canute and CharlieZardoz like this

#31
daves

daves
  • Members
  • 1,299 posts

Mike: Just bought the book off amazon for a whopping $9 ;)

 

Daves: 

My want in this forum post is partly for my own research since many of these kits are small ships which I've considered building somewhere down the line and for me at least I'd like to invest the time in models which have a historical counterpart. As with Sultana I plan on doing thorough research on each model ship I build so as to know as much as I can about the ship's history and detailing, etc.  Doing research I was able to track down (impostors) like AL's Independence which is really just the Halifax slightly redressed, or Constructo's Enterprise which appears to be off the draught of the Vixen with a few details added.  But research can also help determine ships that were based on actual draughts, the Revenue cutters Alert and Ranger which are unnamed in Chapelle's books, or Caldercraft's Bader ex Pitt the admiralty draught is available online, or The Albatros or Harvey which are based off of the same plans found in Chapelle's book on Baltimore Clippers.  Same as what Mike said above about the Unicorn a little research led me to the Chapman book I just ordered so in the end whether or not I build any of them I'm learning more about period ships so that now I can just look at a model like Mamoli's Blue Shadow and know it to be fantasy. :)

 

i see, this is like reverse researching you have a kit model and you try to back track the research trail to the sources that inspired the kit or resources used to develope the kit.  If it is a dead end then the ship could be total fantasy. However! why do it in the first place? i can see wanting to "inform" model ship builders that ships advertised as historic ships may not be as advertised. On the other hand some kits builders don't care and buy the kit because they like the looks of the model. For personal research then would it be better to select a historic ship and build the research around the ship?


Edited by daves, 04 October 2015 - 02:07 PM.

  • mtaylor, dgbot, Canute and 1 other like this

#32
CharlieZardoz

CharlieZardoz
  • Members
  • 795 posts
  • LocationQueens New York

Jbshan: yes I know what you mean completely, the Constitution is about 204' overall length but that was never really used in draught plans (connie being about 175' at gundeck).  And if we are talking mast end to mast end that's like 304' or something.

Daves: Long story short I have a spreadsheet with various ships that I would consider building over the coming years. Certain ship types I plan to build in groups for example the Sultana is a continental schooner from the 1760s. I don't plan on displaying my models static but grouped sailing together in action sequences using that fake water stuff. Other contemporaries to Sultana might be Halifax, Armed Virginia schooner, Marble Head or Chaleur stuff that's similar but also a bit different to contrast design and performance.  Each group on the spreadsheet has my top 5 interests like top 5 british frigates or american brigs, baltimore clippers or cutters or somesuch not that I expect to build all 5 but it gives me an idea of where I might be headed in the future and what to pick from. Now other than Ballahoo and Pickle there ain't many british schooners/sloops with actual famous names or kits thereof (that I know of anyways) so that's where the bunch I posted come into play. Maybe the Hms Alert or the Bermuda sloop or maybe one of the kits mentioned if I find they have a history that interests me. In the same way that I just found the Racehorse now i'm filled with all sorts of questions. Where was she purchased? Maybe an american ship like the London/Basilisk or Badger/Pitt? Maybe French or Dutch? I've learned so much about ships in just a years time and its digging like this which is helping me discover all sorts of fun facts about sailing ship history, design and development. Also alot of these old kits were in the 1980s model expo catalogue which has sentimental value to me as I read those magazines hundreds of times as a kid. And most likely I would only use the plans to scratch a model in the scale and detail I want but hey it saves me a few steps in the building process. So yeah thats the short explanation lol ;)


Edited by CharlieZardoz, 04 October 2015 - 09:31 AM.

  • trippwj, CaptainSteve and Canute like this

#33
daves

daves
  • Members
  • 1,299 posts

Here is what i suggest you do. first get the book Colonial Schooners by Harold Hahn and download the thesis Nancy, reader point wreck, eighteenth century colonial american merchant construction and others pertaining to the subject. Each thesis will have a historical chapter or two about the time period then the thesis on the subject and at the end resources. you can follow up these resources to go a step farther in your quest. 

Another model builder and i are trading Emails and information. His interest is building the frigate Psyche which was sent to Canada in frame and built at Kingston. We are sifting through shipyard records, personal letters and correspondence papers finding the people involved and their backrounds, contracts of the people who transported the timbers etc in other words before the model can even be started a complete as possible historical profile is built.

I found kits over the years give you a very general overview of wooden ships so when you do narrow down your interest that is when you begin to understand what happened. The hobby of model ship building tends to over simplify and generalize ship building. Realize every ship was a one off one of a kind based on the trends of design and construction of the period but the final ship is uniquely that of the shipwright who built the ship. 

lets take modern day cars ever notice a lot of white cars on the road? it is not because the car makers ran out of colored paint it is because a trend started in Germany to use white paint. The reason is white reflects the best and shows off the desing lines of the car body. Taking this and apply to ship building in the early days, someone came up with the bermuda sloop/marble head design resulting in a design trend and other builders jumped on board and began to incorporate the design or elements of it in their building. As a result you will find similarities in ships like the Nancy, Sir Edward Hawk, Halifax etc. 


  • Canute and CharlieZardoz like this

#34
CharlieZardoz

CharlieZardoz
  • Members
  • 795 posts
  • LocationQueens New York

There is wisdom in your words. I've always seen kits as just a practice tool for learning. Wooden ship model building is largely a scratch hobby though many of the newer kits offer much more precision then the old kit companies like sergal or dikar. Just today looking through the Peregrine galley and Royal Caroline kits realizing they are represented at wierd/incorrect scales and I think they even used the same hull frames. :P I will definitely look up those resources which will surely help me understand more of the history and yes I do understand sailing ships were not regimented like modern day ship classes are so even a "type" of vessel had many variations though I do believe researching those uniquenesses is very much part of the fun. Again appreciate the guidance :)


Edited by CharlieZardoz, 05 October 2015 - 03:12 AM.

  • mtaylor likes this

#35
thibaultron

thibaultron
  • Members
  • 575 posts
  • LocationWarrenville, SC

Does anyone know if the old Marine Models kit for the bomb ketch is based on an actual ship? I think it was labeled as HMS Lion.



#36
CharlieZardoz

CharlieZardoz
  • Members
  • 795 posts
  • LocationQueens New York

Do you happen to have a picture?  Don't see any on google so I assume it's old. 



#37
thibaultron

thibaultron
  • Members
  • 575 posts
  • LocationWarrenville, SC

I have plans, but they are buried at the back of my shop, I'm doing renovations. Pyro made a model called the Bomb Ketch, and here are some pictures. The pyro model is what got me interested in the Marine Models kit.

Attached Thumbnails

  • 113%20British%20Bomb%20Ketch%20001B.jpg
  • 113-brithish-bomb-ketch-020.jpg
  • 113-british-bomb-ketch-1a.jpg

  • trippwj, mtaylor, JPAM and 4 others like this

#38
CharlieZardoz

CharlieZardoz
  • Members
  • 795 posts
  • LocationQueens New York

Wow look at that thing! lol  It looks to me very generic, I couldn't even tell you what century that was supposed to be.  The British had tons of bomber ketch's and while it's possible that a plan was used as a reference, doesn't look like they followed it too closely.  My advice if feeling the need to build this one would be to use the Granado and Convulsion as a reference and also see if you can locate a book on British ketch's, find one that looks similar enough then modify the kit to that ship and call it a day. :) 


  • thibaultron and Canute like this

#39
CharlieZardoz

CharlieZardoz
  • Members
  • 795 posts
  • LocationQueens New York

Regarding the HMS Shine kit, I think I figured that one out. The Mantua "Jamaica" kit is most definitely based on the Bermuda Sloop plans.  Looking at the Jamaica and the Shine I realized that they were essentially the same model, just in different scale and an extra mast added. I realized that when I looked at the stern decorations on both (the left is Shine right is Jamaica) they are pretty much the same as are the deck fittings and layout. The Shine is touted as 1:45 scale at 26.5" but most likely it is closer to 1:64th since Jamaica is 32" at 1:50 scale. Probably tons of Bermuda style sloops sailing around in the early 18th century with all sorts of mast arrangements. If I ever build one probably best to go off the original plans :)

Attached Thumbnails

  • popa-hms-shine1.jpg
  • 49-135-thickbox1.jpg
  • hms_jamaica_7841.jpg
  • Sloop 21.jpg

Edited by CharlieZardoz, 05 October 2015 - 09:15 PM.

  • mtaylor and Canute like this

#40
jbshan

jbshan
  • Members
  • 1,134 posts
  • LocationWest Coast of NH

The British had some bomb vessels, but except for the first few, in the late 1600s, they were not ketches, rather ship-rigged sloops which role they could perform when not in use with mortars.


  • mtaylor, thibaultron, Canute and 1 other like this




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Welcome GUEST to the Model Ship World Community.
Please LOGIN or REGISTER to use all of our feautures.