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Steamboats and other rivercraft - general discussion

Steamboats riverboats rivers sternwheelers paddlewheelers

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#21
Gerhardvienna

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Got a general question. How much wood does a paddle wheeler like the Herion use. 

Good question..........

Not for the Heroine, but for the Cairo there are some infos here to find https://archive.org/...civilwarg00petebut no detailed infos about the amount of wood they needed!


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Problems just mean: solutions not yet found

 

Models in progress

SMS DANZIG

http://modelshipworl...adio-150-scale/

USS CAIRO

http://modelshipworl...ve-steam-radio/

Baby Bootlegger 1/10

http://modelshipworl...-gerhardvienna/

 

Swiss paddlesteamer RIGI 1848 1:50, after plans from the Verkehrshaus Zürich, rescaled to original length

Anchor tugboat BISON, 1:50, plans from VTH, scratch

Finished models

See-Ewer ELBE, Constructo kit 1:48

German fastboat after plans from german Reichskriegsmarine measure unknown (too ugly to show up!)

German traffic boat for battleships WW2, 1:50, after plans from Jürgen Eichardt, scratch

German Schnellboot TIGER P6141 VTH plans, scratch

 


#22
steamschooner

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http://mirc.sc.edu/i...bject/usc:29874 Steam boat parade on the Ohio in 1929. This is for those that might have missed my earlier post of this link.


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Current build

John Cudahy  Scratch build 1/4" scale Steam Tughttp://modelshipworl...tug/#entry22127

Past builds

1914 Steam Tug Scratch build from HAMMS plans

1820 Pinky  "Eagle" Scratch build from; American Ships Their Plans and History


#23
chborgm

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Having grown up in Pittsburgh aboutten years after this all I can say is Thank you


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Flying Fish --  MSW

Essex ---  MSW

Constitution  --  MSW

Confederacy -- MSW

Philadelphia -- MSW 

Chaperon -- MSW

San Felipe -- Panart

Portland -- Bluejacket


#24
Cap'n'Bob

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Got a general question. How much wood does a paddle wheeler like the Herion use. 

 

I don't know about the Heroine but pertaining to later paddle wheel boats they did not use as much wood as much as you might think.  Years ago I read (don't remember where) the boats were built as light as possible in order to carry more cargo. The hull and decks were built of 3/4" thick boards, the walls on the main deck were 5/8" thick and the walls on each higher deck were reduced in thickness by 1/8".  Some of the wheel houses had walls as thin as 1/4".  So the riverboats were not built with the thick frames and planking of an ocean going boat.  Maybe that is why they were so easily sunk by running into snags. 

 

Bob


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#25
chborgm

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I did a little homework to get a rough idea of the amount of wood a riverboat used.

I started with a cord of oak with 12 percent moisture

 

According to my MARKS Handbook a cord of wood is about worth 30,000,000 BTU

Also 1 Horsepower is equal to 2542. BTU per Hour

So a 500 hp engine would need 1,271,000 BTU per hour at 100% eff or 8,473,333 per hour at a 15% overall eff. (that’s from grate to output shaft) I have no idea if 500 hp is close, but with all the inefficient burning and heat loss through the pipes I don’t think the efficiency would be much more.

So if you need 8,473,333 btus/hr to get 500 developed HP then one cord of wood would last about 3.5 HRS  (30,000,000 / 8,473,333)hour 


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Flying Fish --  MSW

Essex ---  MSW

Constitution  --  MSW

Confederacy -- MSW

Philadelphia -- MSW 

Chaperon -- MSW

San Felipe -- Panart

Portland -- Bluejacket


#26
Keith Simmons

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Hi Cathead,

 

   After seeing your thread I decided to take the hull design I was working on and create my twist on a river tug. Once I got started I added a second mission to the tug as a hemp trader just because I had the hemp string..lol

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Current build:

 

     A Battleship

 

Past builds:

 

   The Unicorn - The Lindworm - Malahini -  Shinobi Maru  -  The MaryJane - The Weeligstraal

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

   


#27
Cathead

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Got a general question. How much wood does a paddle wheeler like the Herion use.

 

 

I wasn't sure if you meant how much firewood was used to run a steamboat, or how much wood was used in construction, so here's my take on both. Good question either way.

 

Firewood (from Steamboats on the Western Rivers, Louis C Hunter): "Steamboats of the smaller classes burned 12 to 24 cords of wood every 24 hours, and the larger boats running at mid-century consumed anywhere from 50 to 75 cords per day."

 

Also, keep in mind that firewood quality varied tremendously along western American rivers, everything from well-cured oak with lots of heat potential to green cottonwood that was barely worth burning. Early boats (like Heroine) probably had to cut their own wood daily as they worked up-river (salvaging driftwood, dead trees, live when necessary), whereas woodlots began to proliferate along navigable rivers as traffic developed, meaning that boats could stop and buy wood daily instead, often finding better-quality stuff as woodcutters could stack and cure wood for later sale knowing that boats would be coming along. Especially on the Missouri River, this too changed along the route, as the river slowly left behind forested areas and extended into the mostly treeless plains and prairies of the Upper West.

 

Construction (from The Western River Steamboat, Adam Kane): "According to the 1880 census, the shipyard at Sewickley PA consumed 100,000 to 225,000 feet of oak, pine, and poplar in the construction of each steamboat hull between 180 and 260 feet long...this equates to approximately 20-50 old-growth trees per hull".

 

Early boats were built tough and heavy, simulating maritime construction, but builders quickly realized this wasn't the way to go about things, and starting building them lighter and lighter, using less oak and more pine & poplar, and using thinner pieces. American riverboats needed to be light and flexible, not hefty and rigid like an ocean-going ship.


Edited by Cathead, 07 May 2016 - 04:50 PM.

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Current build: US Revenue Cutter "Ranger", Corel, 1:64

 

Previous builds:

Naval: 18th century longboat, Model Shipways, 1:48; Naval gun kits from Model Shipways; Bounty launch, Model Shipways, 1:16

Missouri River craft: Missouri River steamboat Bertrand, scratchbuilt in 1:87;  Lewis & Clark barge, scratchbuilt in 1:48;
Missouri River keelboat, scratchbuilt in 1:87; Missouri River steamboat Far West, scratchbuilt in 1:87


#28
Cathead

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Keith, that's a really interesting model. Is there a specific prototype, or something whimsical you came up with?


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Current build: US Revenue Cutter "Ranger", Corel, 1:64

 

Previous builds:

Naval: 18th century longboat, Model Shipways, 1:48; Naval gun kits from Model Shipways; Bounty launch, Model Shipways, 1:16

Missouri River craft: Missouri River steamboat Bertrand, scratchbuilt in 1:87;  Lewis & Clark barge, scratchbuilt in 1:48;
Missouri River keelboat, scratchbuilt in 1:87; Missouri River steamboat Far West, scratchbuilt in 1:87


#29
chborgm

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Cathead thanks for the input.

 

The overall efficiency of the power cycle must have really been low. I consider just dry red Oak. Cottonwood green is 19. Million, and Pine is 17. compared to the 30 million for the red oak. On the efficiency, I checked my Mark Mechanical Engineers Handbook, and for engines of that era the engine alone efficiency was list around 10%. so when you consider the inefficiency of the fire and boiler heat lost through all the piping the overall eff must be in the low single numbers.

That easily give the number you gave.


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Flying Fish --  MSW

Essex ---  MSW

Constitution  --  MSW

Confederacy -- MSW

Philadelphia -- MSW 

Chaperon -- MSW

San Felipe -- Panart

Portland -- Bluejacket


#30
Keith Simmons

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Keith, that's a really interesting model. Is there a specific prototype, or something whimsical you came up with?

 Hi Cathead, 

 

       It is just a fantasy tug, I usually start out by making some crazy hull and let the build process determine where I go.In this case I was already working on a hull then I saw your post, Eureka!  a steam tug,   lol.    Thanks for your comments. 

 

       Take care, Keith


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Current build:

 

     A Battleship

 

Past builds:

 

   The Unicorn - The Lindworm - Malahini -  Shinobi Maru  -  The MaryJane - The Weeligstraal

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

   


#31
Roger Pellett

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Unlike the steamboats used on the eastern rivers that used low pressure condensing engines, wetern river steamboats used high pressure engines that exhausted partially expanded steam to the atmosphere. By using high pressure steam, these engines could be quite powerful, but their efficiency was very low as they lost the use of the heat that still remained in the steam at atmospheric temperature.

Roger Pellett
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#32
daves

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might make a nice model

 

 

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#33
Kurt Van Dahm

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Dave:

What is the source of these plans? 

I know about the HAMMS set and John Fryant's set.  Bill Strachan used these for his model that was featured in the Nautical Research Journal issues 60.2 and 60.3. - a fabulous diorama!

Kurt


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Kurt Van Dahm

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#34
daves

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i dont know the original source they came to me when Harold Hahn gave me his plan collection, which i thought was a bit odd why he had these plans as part of his collection. There is nothing on the plans as to the source or copyright or name. if posting them might be a copyright issue with the NRG or anyone i will most certain take them down. 

 

They do not look like a HAMMS set of drawings because you can see a faint image of the drafting linen in the backround. HAMMS plans will say so like this plan does

 

_0007.jpg


Edited by daves, 12 May 2016 - 05:13 PM.

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#35
Kurt Van Dahm

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Dave:

No problem with them being posted.  Just was curious.  I have a lot of the HAMMS plans - boarders might have been cropped a bit. 

Kurt


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Kurt Van Dahm

Director - Chairman

NAUTICAL RESEARCH GUILD

www.thenrg.org


CLUBS
Nautical Research & Model Ship Society of Chicago
Midwest Model Shipwrights
North Shore Deadeyes

Butch O'Hare - IPMS

#36
Gerhardvienna

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Hi Daves

 

Would be a nice model indeed! Plans saved right at the moment i saw them...........

 

Regards

Gerhard


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Problems just mean: solutions not yet found

 

Models in progress

SMS DANZIG

http://modelshipworl...adio-150-scale/

USS CAIRO

http://modelshipworl...ve-steam-radio/

Baby Bootlegger 1/10

http://modelshipworl...-gerhardvienna/

 

Swiss paddlesteamer RIGI 1848 1:50, after plans from the Verkehrshaus Zürich, rescaled to original length

Anchor tugboat BISON, 1:50, plans from VTH, scratch

Finished models

See-Ewer ELBE, Constructo kit 1:48

German fastboat after plans from german Reichskriegsmarine measure unknown (too ugly to show up!)

German traffic boat for battleships WW2, 1:50, after plans from Jürgen Eichardt, scratch

German Schnellboot TIGER P6141 VTH plans, scratch

 


#37
chborgm

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What were the early European canal boats like?


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Flying Fish --  MSW

Essex ---  MSW

Constitution  --  MSW

Confederacy -- MSW

Philadelphia -- MSW 

Chaperon -- MSW

San Felipe -- Panart

Portland -- Bluejacket


#38
Gerhardvienna

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What were the early European canal boats like?

 

Most of the austrian wheelers are gone, just the Schönbrunn is in use for public or for charter tours. http://www.oegeg.at/schifffahrt/

Switzerland has a lot more of this old ships still at the lakes, even the worldwide oldest existing ship, the RIGI is still alive but not floating. She is at restoration on front of the "Verkehrshaus" in Zürich, I build (beneath my others) a 1:50 scale model of her in her first appearance from  1848 https://www.verkehrs...fffahrt/ds-rigi. She was a postship in her early days, used for goods and personal transport.

The photos show the RIGI in her first appearance.

IMG_4807.JPG

 

IMG_4812.JPG

 

I will try to find more about the european steamers but lots of infos were lost during WW2!

Regards

Gerhard


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Problems just mean: solutions not yet found

 

Models in progress

SMS DANZIG

http://modelshipworl...adio-150-scale/

USS CAIRO

http://modelshipworl...ve-steam-radio/

Baby Bootlegger 1/10

http://modelshipworl...-gerhardvienna/

 

Swiss paddlesteamer RIGI 1848 1:50, after plans from the Verkehrshaus Zürich, rescaled to original length

Anchor tugboat BISON, 1:50, plans from VTH, scratch

Finished models

See-Ewer ELBE, Constructo kit 1:48

German fastboat after plans from german Reichskriegsmarine measure unknown (too ugly to show up!)

German traffic boat for battleships WW2, 1:50, after plans from Jürgen Eichardt, scratch

German Schnellboot TIGER P6141 VTH plans, scratch

 


#39
Gerhardvienna

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Back again from a short search, here comes a bit more. The Oscar Huber, a big river tugboat, he is still alive, located in Duisburg as a museum ship https://www.google.a...bih=902#imgrc=_

 

And there was the "Le Rhone" an even large tugboat, she had a turbine instead of a usual steam engine, and side wheels, her general plan is on digipeer http://www.digipeer....hp?id=648324079

I cant show the photos, I am not sure if they are copyrighted.

 

Regards

Gerhard


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Problems just mean: solutions not yet found

 

Models in progress

SMS DANZIG

http://modelshipworl...adio-150-scale/

USS CAIRO

http://modelshipworl...ve-steam-radio/

Baby Bootlegger 1/10

http://modelshipworl...-gerhardvienna/

 

Swiss paddlesteamer RIGI 1848 1:50, after plans from the Verkehrshaus Zürich, rescaled to original length

Anchor tugboat BISON, 1:50, plans from VTH, scratch

Finished models

See-Ewer ELBE, Constructo kit 1:48

German fastboat after plans from german Reichskriegsmarine measure unknown (too ugly to show up!)

German traffic boat for battleships WW2, 1:50, after plans from Jürgen Eichardt, scratch

German Schnellboot TIGER P6141 VTH plans, scratch

 


#40
grsjax

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Wow, Gerhard, that's a new one for me. Recently, reading a book on the Ottoman Empire, I found a maddeningly vague reference to the British army using steamboats to transport troops and supplies up and down the Tigris & Euphrates rivers during WWI. Would have loved to know more. I really only know anything about American vessels, and only so much about that. So much history, so little time.

I believe the boats used by the British on the Tigris and Euphrates were the Insect class gunboats as well as barges and other local craft that were available.  I can't remember where I saw it but there was a book on the the first world war in Mesopotamia that has several pictures of the British boats on the rivers.


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