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Some criteria for starting a new group project


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#1
Chuck

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As many of you are aware....we have had many group project forums in the past with a couple going on right now.   I just closed the Longboat group which had been going for several years.   It had soon run its course.  All closed groups will have their logs moved to the appropriate forum.  None will be lost.  Keep in mind all groups are not permanent.   They will wind down and close as  they lose steam and participation.   This will done to preserve valuable forum real estate and also keep the site fresh and exciting with new possibilities for the membership.  As the administrator I will pose the question in each group forum when it looks like interest and participation crawled to a stop.  It will be up to the membership if they want to keep it open...but that means its up to the membership to keep it active.

 

If closed....All pinned topics and non logs will be moved .  Nothing will be lost.

 

:)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :) 

 

To start a new project forum, it must meet this criteria.

 

- must have 6 - 8 current members actively building the project and willing to start a log in a separate group area.    Group will be open to any member wanting to participate.  No exclusions.

 

- subject can be suggested by any member as long as they meet the criteria.  Its time to rally your fellow members should you wish to start one.  If you are among many building one model now and there are more than 6 - 8 logs already started,  why not take the initiative to contact them to see if all of you want to start a group.  Just an idea.

 

- the forums must contain only Build logs following the same guidelines for naming them as the other build log forums.  

 

-all non-build log specific info related to the project that will help the group of builders, will be posted as a pinned topic above the build logs by a moderator.

 

 If you would like to suggest a topic for such a group build area...you may list it in this forum.....Try to rally your fellow members to start and participate in a new group.....or if there are already more than 6-8 "scratch" or "kit" forum build logs started and you can convince those builders to move their topics here.....we can do that as well.  But if that happens.....we will move all similar build logs here for convenience and consistency....even if you are NOT among the 6-8 who want to start such a separate group project forum.    But PLEASE...be as detailed as you can when suggesting a new group be started.

 

List the name and type of ship or item.....scratch or kit......POF or POB....solid hull....what will cost....time frame....where to get plans....kit...or supplies.   What would the goal and aim be if any for the project you are trying to start.

 

JUST ONE MORE SUGGESTION.....The project DOES NOT need to be for a complete ship or boat.  For example.  If members wanted to start a group about making a ship's stove or a capstan....that is fine too.  As long as there are 6-8 members who are actively doing so.  Trying new techniques and sharing them as well as working on the same exact thing.....if you want to start a group about using a lathe to turn cannon and it will active participants...that is great and worthwhile.

 

A group project such as this....its about learning together and exchanging ideas as a group on any one subject.   This structure is offered to make it easier and more convenient.  So think outside the box.  But we need 6-8 members to start one.   And the key word is ACTIVE PROJECT.

 

 

 

Chuck

(MSW admin)


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Chuck Passaro - MSW Admin 

 

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#2
daves

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I would like to put forth a build project, at this point i am just looking for feed back and see if there is an interest.
The Harold Hahn topic proved to be of interest to a lot of builders so based on that i would like to suggest a reconstruction of one of his models. The model selected will be the Halifax in 1/4 inch to the foot scale built from the original Hahn plans. I will do a limited edition of the model in West Indian Boxwood. The project is plank on frame and it can be offered two ways.

 

One way is how Harold built the model with framing stock to build the frame blanks then glue the frame pattern to the blank and cut out each frame.

 

method6.jpg

 

. A second way is having all the frame parts laser cut and the builder assembles the frames.  The second method is for those who do not have the tools to cut framing blanks and build the frames, plus it saves a lot of pre construction and cutting of frames, this type of build focuses more on construction. The photo is of the General Hunter but the concept will be the same for the Halifax.

 

laser part set.jpg

 

Make no mistake both methods are a challenge. i would encourage first time POF builders, you can't mess it up because if you do parts will be replaced.
The Halifax will be the first model to offer 3D printed stern, quarter badge and figurehead. This also adds a new dimension to model building on how to finish 3D printed carvings.
As far as cost for the timbering package i have to consult the laser cutter and the owner of the Lumberyard who i do have a little influence over and see if we can keep the cost as low as possible. i am also thinking of sourcing out a planking package and fittings.  If there is enough interest i will follow up with cost, time frame, and when we can get started, at this point a lot of planning has to be done.

 

The Halifax is a nice looking model fully rigged it is 26 X 20 x 7. here is a photo of the basic hull

 

halifax44c.jpg

 

lets take a look at Stacy's work,  the artist who created the 3d pieces.

 

windows1.jpg

 




Edited by daves, 29 May 2016 - 02:53 PM.

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#3
daves

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I am going through my archives looking for possible subjects, a little feed back from the group would be helpful in finding and designing a project like what are you looking for in a project.

 

anyhow here is another idea

 

plank on frame or plank on bulkhead?

 

 

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#4
daves

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The idea behind the group building project is to create a teaching aid. you can go on line and spend big bucks for a practicum but if the NRG is offering the same deal here for free, why not!

 

The projects i am suggesting i would like to set up so NRG members would get a discount of like maybe 30% on the timbering packages. 

 

Again in order to create these projects people have to offer feed back we can make the projects easy like this one

 

 

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#5
daves

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OR a complex extreme detailed project can be done like this one built timber for timber. 

 

The NRG has been in operation since 1948 and some of us older guys have been doing this for 30 to 45 years or more.  I could pick one of these and start a build log but that is not the point. This is like a class room where a group approach a project. That is one of the draw backs of build logs and practicums, they are ALL the builders ideas. 

Keep in mind members of the NRG has resources to help in research, mill work, laser work and providing the fittings, rigging, planking packages, CAD drafting. for heavens sake this is the state of the art right here right now.

 

the drawings produced, the fittings, cutting files and any resulting instructions all belong to the NRG anyone providing services or material is for the benifit of the organization and NOT for a big personal profit.

Talk to me

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Edited by daves, 02 June 2016 - 04:45 PM.

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#6
ccoyle

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I'm not at a point in my life where I can commit to a group project, but I would be keenly interested in a C A Thayer build somewhere down the road.


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Chris Coyle
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#7
daves

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that is a valid point Chris to commit to a detailed long term project is something few builders will do.  however, something like the Thayer can be drawn and a cutting file created for just about every timber and cabin pannel and fitting, this will take a huge amount of time out of the build. Perhaps a small project like the Halifax or Mary where a simple elegant model can be built.

 

would builders rather have the Jim Roberts concept of it has to have at least one gun? 

would you rather do a fast easy project that is called "folk art"

would you rather have a model that takes little time, a short and sweet little model out of polished boxwood?

 

i remember way back in the day when the NRG had a hard time puting out a journal because articles came from the membership and members would rather sit back and read the journal rather than contribute to it and that is fine. But you got to keep in mind there is only a very, very small group of dedicated people doing a huge amout of work keeping the journal and this site alive and active. 

Makes me wonder out of over 23,000 members only one person came up with suggestions so what's up with the other 22,999?


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#8
Redshirt

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I like all of thes projects but especialy Halifax which is relatively small yet has some ornamentation. My only concern would be how to get the plans for the vessel.
Smaller sized vessels can also be built at a larger scale, which is nice.

Edited by Redshirt, 02 June 2016 - 11:03 PM.

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#9
mtaylor

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Give it time, Dave.   Chuck also has a topic posted elsewhere about kits that maybe "should" be made.

 

I'm needing some filter time but having leapt into scratchbuilding, I'm not sure what would be a good project.  The Triton Cross-Section seems to have worked well...   It's an interesting build, not too difficult, and by most standards, pretty quick depending on the builder and how complex they want to go. And it produces a nice model.  The full-build.. not very successful as it's a huge time eater and complex.  

 

At this point, I'm not even considering the next model.. well.. I'm considering but not deciding, put it that way.

 

Somewhere is a happy medium but darned if I know where it would be...  perhaps, fittings... like Chuck suggested.  Or maybe a mast mounted to a fake deck with deadeyes, full sails,and all the rigging.   


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Mark

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Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0

Past Builds:
Triton Cross-Section
USS Constellaton (kit bashed to 1854 Sloop of War (Gallery) Build Log
Wasa (Gallery)


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#10
daves

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I like all of thes projects but especialy Halifax which is relatively small yet has some ornamentation. My only concern would be how to get the plans for the vessel.
Smaller sized vessels can also be built at a larger scale, which is nice.

 

if your talking about the Halifax plans the4y would be part of the build package.  If you want a set of Halifax plans Ev at the lumberyard handles hahn plans. with any of the projects i am sure a set of modeling plans would be developed just for the build.


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#11
Roger Pellett

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If the intent of this or any group project is to introduce model builders to scratch building, the Hahn system has much to recommend. The idea of a flat jig/datum to lock frames in place goes a long way towards ensuring an accurate hull. For builders with limited workshop capacity, strip milled to the correct dimensions can be purchased, cut with a minirature miter box and laminated and cut to shape using simple hand tools. Many years ago, I built a model of the New York pilot boat Express using the Hahn system and over 30 years later am still quite proud of it. While building a model "upright" using individual timbers may better represent actual shipbuilding practice, I would argue that a builder wishing to include this level of detail, and capable of executing it does not need to and might not be interested in a group build.

Roger Pellett
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#12
JerseyCity Frankie

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Chuck has opened the door to the idea of group build logs for things like Capstans and Galley Stoves. This raises a general question about group build logs that are not of entire ships but of COMPONENTS of ships: Lets say you have a group build log for capstans. People will be building capstans for their ships and their ships will have individual build logs for them that will already include the capstan portion of the build, then they will ALSO be using the capstan portion of their build logs in the Capstan Group Build Log. So there will be duplication of effort with wholesale cutting and pasting of capstan building  photos and text from the build logs they originated from into the Group Build Logs. This wouldn't bother me since it will allow a lot of capstan building information to be located all in one place. but would it be placing a burden on the websites servers and other resources?


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#13
JerseyCity Frankie

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I would like to suggest a group build log for making Sails for Models. I think it would be great to have a lot of sail making projects available for perusal all under one heading. But maybe this topic is not specific enough for a group build log? Or maybe it would be felt that there is already a place for sailmaking discussion under the Masting Rigging and Sails heading? It could be regarded as too wide a net and the group would be unable to focus on one method of making sails? On the other hand there are a lot of people that are daunted by the prospect of making realistic sails for their models and there is a LOT of information that could be discussed and disseminated. The subject of sails is controversial though and there would be a lot of different methods being discussed and the group build log would become chaotic. Whereas by contrast the group build log for Capstans  would likely fall into maybe three schools of thought and could stay on track better? All these are guesses on my part, but I do think the idea of a sail building discussion group has merit.


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#14
daves

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If the intent of this or any group project is to introduce model builders to scratch building, the Hahn system has much to recommend. The idea of a flat jig/datum to lock frames in place goes a long way towards ensuring an accurate hull. For builders with limited workshop capacity, strip milled to the correct dimensions can be purchased, cut with a minirature miter box and laminated and cut to shape using simple hand tools. Many years ago, I built a model of the New York pilot boat Express using the Hahn system and over 30 years later am still quite proud of it. While building a model "upright" using individual timbers may better represent actual shipbuilding practice, I would argue that a builder wishing to include this level of detail, and capable of executing it does not need to and might not be interested in a group build.

Roger Pellett

 

you bring up an interesting point Roger a group build would focus more on method rather than subject. The Hahifax project would be more along the lines of teaching the Hahn method of building and it's pros and cons. Once a first time POF builder gets the method down then like you did, apply it to any future subject.

with all the frame parts laser cut and a planking and fitting package any builder even with a very limited amount of tools can take part in the build. 


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#15
daves

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Chuck has opened the door to the idea of group build logs for things like Capstans and Galley Stoves. This raises a general question about group build logs that are not of entire ships but of COMPONENTS of ships: Lets say you have a group build log for capstans. People will be building capstans for their ships and their ships will have individual build logs for them that will already include the capstan portion of the build, then they will ALSO be using the capstan portion of their build logs in the Capstan Group Build Log. So there will be duplication of effort with wholesale cutting and pasting of capstan building  photos and text from the build logs they originated from into the Group Build Logs. This wouldn't bother me since it will allow a lot of capstan building information to be located all in one place. but would it be placing a burden on the websites servers and other resources?

 

the concept of component builds is a good idea but like you said these component are part of a build log so your right there will be a duplication of effort. i can think of a couple of build logds where fittings are included.

This idea is better suited for how to articles on a subject, one thing i have found on many sites is information becomes burried after time and a builder would have no idea the information is there. If how to articles were contasined under one area then it is much easier to find them.


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#16
Chuck

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Well right now I am just trying to muster up enough interest in any subject.  Doesnt seem to be going well.  Plus Dave and others are missing the point with the fitting group projects.  It doesnt matter that there are instances where a capstan is made in a build log.  There is no duplication.......

 

The idea is that a group of folks may want to try and build a typical capstan correctly and choose the same subject plan/or primary source. Then build it TOGETHER while sharing ideas for how best to accomplish the task.  For example...see the wonderful model below.

 

 

With your line of thinking ....which I think is flawed,  one can say that there are currently so many Hahn scratch build logs underway that there is no good reason to start a group for one.  It would be a duplication of effort and redundant.  There has been so much written about his method....and tried before,  that it would not be worthy of a group.    But ......because you folks missed the whole point about ..."group"  and "together"   "building the same subject"  "from the same plans together"   .....I think a Hahn group would be a good idea and so would any project as a group who wanted to try and build any subject as a study and exercise in technique or for any other reason.  This includes any current kit on the market.   It doesnt have to be a special project designed new...or by a commercial entity specifically for the purpose of using it in a group.....

 

It can be a group build entirely from scratch.....buy a copy of any plan available....OR you can collectively choose to start a group building teh M.Shipways kit for the Armed Virginia Sloop....It doesnt matter how over done it is...as long as members of the group will get something out of it....learn together and progress there hobby adventure.  A group of brand new model builders getting together to build a simple kit as a group will absolutely be of benefit to them in the long run.  It is easier to "learn" as group than on your own....sometimes....and for specific people who prefer additional input and support.

 

 

A group project for making sails is an EXCELLENT idea....a plan of any sail can found easily enough....that same plan can be used by many folks to make a sail....imagine,

 

some trying different materials.....others trying different techniques.  All to produce the same sail.  It would be so valuable to have that data in one place for everyone after the group has completed.  Excellent suggestion.   But someone has to take the lead and get it organized.....find that plan and find 6-8 people ready to get started.  That would be an invaluable resource to have for everyone.   AND it wont be a project that takes years to complete....and you can participate while still working on any current projects.  Frank gets it.....that is whole point of a group learning experience.large.jpg


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Chuck Passaro - MSW Admin 

 

Current build - HMS Winchelsea - POB scratch build

                            HM Cutter Cheerful - POB scratch build

       Royal Barge - POF scratch

 

www.syrenshipmodelcompany.com

 


#17
GuntherMT

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As a newcomer, the biggest issue for group builds for myself is timing.  The group build of the long-boat got me interested and I purchased the kit, but there are other things in the queue ahead of it, so I haven't started it yet.

 

The Cheerful might have been a good group-build, given how many started it (myself included!), and in theory could still be a group build if all the current logs were moved, but I'm not sure if there is any real benefit to doing that?

 

I'd eventually like to step into full scratch-building, probably with something like the Triton cross-section, so hopefully that will still be available when I dip my toes into that pool, but my current stack of waiting to be built kits are probably not group build material since they've been around for a long time and there are a fair number of old build logs in the forums for them.

 

Sorry I don't have any better suggestions - although I personally don't see why the group build sub-forums need to be shut down when the slow down, as it's really not that big of a deal to scroll past them if you aren't interested or nothing is currently going on.  Lots of sub-forums really don't bother me, and seem like a really good 'reference' for anyone that decides to do those builds in the future, rather than having to try to find them all via search.

 

FYI - something that I noticed when you moved all the long-boat builds - the forum loses track of what has been read and not, so the currently running builds were all marked 'unread' to me, so when they were updated I was unable to just start where they had last been when in the group build sub-forum.  Probably no way to prevent that when you move the logs.


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#18
daves

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With your line of thinking ....which I think is flawed,  one can say that there are currently so many Hahn scratch build logs underway that there is no good reason to start a group for one.  It would be a duplication of effort and redundant.  There has been so much written about his method....and tried before,  that it would not be worthy of a group.

 

i would have to agree on this the Hahn ships have been around since the early 70's and there is a lot of information on the subject. As far as the current generation of model builders i would say the market on Hahn ships have run its course over the years. The only advantage is to refine the building process and put it all together in one how to article for future builders.

 

 

 

But ......because you folks missed the whole point about ..."group"  and "together"   "building the same subject"  "from the same plans together"   .....I think a Hahn group would be a good idea and so would any project as a group who wanted to try and build any subject as a study and exercise in technique or for any other reason.

 

maybe your right about all this a Hahn model or any kit available would be more about that one model rather than a generic how to build that can be applied to any project.

I would think a group build on one subject would be better suited to a scratch project where research input might advance the build, take a subject like early steamships. This will require knowledge of steam power, ships of the era in general, construction methods and available plans plus builders with knowledge of different materials.

 

the more i think about any group build the less appealing it becomes. Just thinking out loud here what if there was a group that collected data. The group would pick subjects such as hull planking then gather every scrap of information that can be found on technique and materials posted on the subject and put in one place. Don't try and find that one subject that everyone wants to build because that is not possible, it is futile, sail making is a good idea but very few builders put sails on models, one fitting may or may not be part of the time period your building. Build something everyone can use a "data base" there would be no end to it. Everything anyone would want to know about anything nautical, Even links and references to articles to direct builders to sources of information.


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#19
ziled68

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Hello Everyone,

I like the concept that Chuck is trying to get started in regards to group projects, be they small or large. One idea that I've been mulling over in my mind would be a group projected dedicated to carvings of Viking longboat prows. I've come across many pictures on the internet and it has stirred my imagination into incorporating it as a side project. Now the prow can be as large as one would want to tackle it. One must ensure that they do show updates and what carving techniques they are using. While at a larger scale, it will give people the opportunity to start practicing their carving techniques in the event they may want to try their hands at a carved ship's figurehead.

Attached are a few photos of what I am talking about in the event it stirs curiosity in fellow ship builders.

 

 

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#20
daves

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very nice idea Raymond

i would do that


Edited by daves, 07 June 2016 - 06:00 PM.

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