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Red Paint or Red Ochre


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35 replies to this topic

#1
davyboy

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Was the red paint on the bulwarks etc in English warships actually paint ? On more than one occasion I have read that red ochre was used being considerably cheaper and plentiful. The Admiralty were notorious for being parsimonious with money.

 

I'm aware that on contemporary models red paint was used,but in reality ?

 

Thanks,

 

Dave :dancetl6:


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#2
wefalck

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Red ochre is one possible pigment in a paint and would have been a lot cheaper than most other red(dish) pigments,


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wefalck

 

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#3
Jaxboat

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Red Ochre refers to a pigment used in paint. Basically it is iron that is oxidized. In this case, red is rust. If you reduce the amount of oxygen when burning in the presence of iron you can also produce various shades of brown, tan and even black. Red ochre is some what subdued compared to organic reds but it is authentic for ship use. The pigment would be dispersed in some kind of vehicle (not sure what it would be in 17th and 18th century).  There were organic red pigments available but they were expensive and not very UV stable

Jaxboat


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#4
wefalck

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Ochres are ferric (i.e. trivalent) iron oxyhydroxides of varying composition (generic formula FeOOH). The less water you have, the more reddish they tend to be. They are the residues from a particular weathering environment. In some parts of the world there are quite pure occurences, for instance in southern France (see e.g. https://en.wikipedia...illon,_Vaucluse), so that it can be mined for pigment. Otherwise, red soils are quite common in the tropics, but contain a lot of sand and other impurities.

1024px-120613-Roussillon-05.jpg

From Wikimedia


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wefalck

 

panta rhei - Everything is in flux

 

 

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#5
davyboy

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Thank you for your input gentlemen.

 

Dave :dancetl6:


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#6
hornet

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We've got a bit of red ochre down under as well. It is commonly known as Central Australia

 

I took a pic of a sample on a recent trip. The rock in the background is  quite well known.  :)

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  • uluru.jpg

Edited by hornet, 22 September 2016 - 10:03 PM.

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Hornet

 

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#7
cog

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In the Aquitaine (Dordogne), near Lalinde, St Alvers you find red clay. That part, if I recall well even behind Sarlat, has a lot of iron in the soil. The red pigment has been used in the drawings in the caves of Font de Gaume at Les Eyzies. I've been at Lascaux, near Sarlat, which are now, unfortunately, closed to the public. Real stunning drawings ... the pigments are still available, it's just that we lost a lot of knowledge to use them


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Carl

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#8
Mark P

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Greetings gentlemen;

 

I have a feeling that the red paint used was actually red lead,  which has some anti-bacterial,  or anti-fungal properties,  and is still often used as a primer for wooden boats.  This paint is,  I believe,  more hard-wearing than one based on red-ochre.  However,  this is based on a feeling that I read this somewhere.  I will check up on this and see if I can find something more concrete than a feeling.

 

All the best,

 

Mark P


Edited by Mark P, 22 September 2016 - 10:08 PM.

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#9
mtaylor

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Mark,

 

I think red lead paint was a later development in the sail era and used on the outside of the hull.  Red ochre was used inside as was whitewash.


Edited by mtaylor, 22 September 2016 - 10:25 PM.

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Mark

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Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0

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#10
Chuck Seiler

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Does anybody have a good formula for replicating red ochre?  I am experimenting with various hues of acrylic red to find a shade I like.  So far, I am close but not on target.


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Chuck Seiler
San Diego Ship Modelers Guild
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Current Build:
Continental Sloop PROVIDENCE
Continental Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (1/2" Scale Model Shipways Kit)
Colonial Schooner SULTANA (scratch from Model Expo Plans)


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Colonial Pinnace VIRGINIA (1607)(scratch)
18th Century Longboat (Model Expo Kit)
 
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Missouri Riverboat FAR WEST (1876) Scratch
1776 Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (Scratch 1/4 scale-Model Shipways plans)


#11
jbshan

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Go to an artists' store.  They should have swatch sheets, the best fo those would be made on paper with the actual paint, bits of which are glued on to the sheet.

Light Red is made from calcined yellow ochre.  This may be the red ochre pigment.

Red lead is a tiny bit brighter.  A good substitute for this might be Cadmium Red Light, a modern pigment.  All are red-orange colors.

If you can find the color in your favorite paint, you may be in business.

Yes, red lead is only a pigment, as is red ochre.  Either would be put with perhaps fish (whale, cod liver) oil and varnish.  There may have been some protection from the lead, but you'll need to find a modern substitute to keep the EPA happy.


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#12
Chuck Seiler

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   I have tried Crimson, but am not wild about it.  Cadmium Red and a little Burnt Sienna.  I am on track but need to work on it.  I recently got Iron Oxide Red I will experiment with in conjunction with the others.  The problem may be that I am shooting for a barn red look, when that may NOT be what I want.  The red cliffs of non-Dover (above) seem to have more yellow.


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Chuck Seiler
San Diego Ship Modelers Guild
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Current Build:
Continental Sloop PROVIDENCE
Continental Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (1/2" Scale Model Shipways Kit)
Colonial Schooner SULTANA (scratch from Model Expo Plans)


On Hold:
Colonial Pinnace VIRGINIA (1607)(scratch)
18th Century Longboat (Model Expo Kit)
 
Completed:
Missouri Riverboat FAR WEST (1876) Scratch
1776 Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (Scratch 1/4 scale-Model Shipways plans)


#13
jbshan

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I stole some swatches, just as a rough guide.

 

Red swatches.jpg

 

On my monitor, Red Ochre looks about like bottom row, 4th from left.

Red Lead looks like top row, far right, perhaps 2nd right.

It is a definite but subtle difference.

Cadmium Red Light may be in the ball park, especially if you don't freak out over mixing colors.


Edited by jbshan, 23 September 2016 - 04:15 AM.

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#14
Chuck Seiler

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    Gadzooks!  Checking the various hues online I find there is alot of paint out there.  Monitor color does not reflect true color however.  I may need to head down to Dick Blick, who has MANY different brands, and check out the swatches.

 

    Is anybody going to be talking 'color' at the upcoming NRG conference?  None on the schedule, but maybe in a round table.


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Chuck Seiler
San Diego Ship Modelers Guild
Nautical Research Guild

 
Current Build:
Continental Sloop PROVIDENCE
Continental Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (1/2" Scale Model Shipways Kit)
Colonial Schooner SULTANA (scratch from Model Expo Plans)


On Hold:
Colonial Pinnace VIRGINIA (1607)(scratch)
18th Century Longboat (Model Expo Kit)
 
Completed:
Missouri Riverboat FAR WEST (1876) Scratch
1776 Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (Scratch 1/4 scale-Model Shipways plans)


#15
wefalck

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'Red Oxide' paint should be the right track. Lead-based pigments have been around for centuries, but were much more expensive then the iron-based pigments. You have to turn the lead first into the oxide, while the iron-oxide only need to be refined.

 

I would think that there was a certain variability in the hue due to the variability of the natural pigment. Howeever, it should be probably more brownish than orangey. Cadmium-red (which does not contain Cd anymore today) would be too bright.

 

I would assume that the paint was based on lineseed-oil, rather than on animal oils. Lineseed-oil, the classical verhicle for 'oil paints' is a drying, i.e. oxidising, oil.


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wefalck

 

panta rhei - Everything is in flux

 

 

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#16
cog

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Take a look here http://www.bradshawf.../sn/lascaux.jpg, I know your screen is off, but it gives a better impression if you need the natural look


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Carl

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#17
Canute

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Take a look at the Model Master line from Testors. They have enamels and acrylics and should have a number of these shades.

 

And don't forget Vallejo and Tamiya. They are acrylics in these shades, although some of the Tamiya may be voc based.


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Ken

 

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#18
Chuck Seiler

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    I have to say that I have been interested in getting 'the right red' almost to the point of obsession for several years.  I looked at different woods, different dyes, etc.  This is an extension of that.  It also explains why I have seemingly alot of reds laying around.

 

    Shortly after Joel posted his color swatches above, I got with him IM and discussed different reds.  It prompted my to develop my own swatches, which I took to the NRG conference.  Unfortunately, I did not take the opportunity to discuss wit may people.  One thing  did get from Joel was to post a common item, like a can of soup, so differences in monitors, etc, can be gauged.

 

    Plate 1 consists of some colors I was playing with (upper) as well as combinations.  CABOOSE RED is obviously not close to red ochre, but it was a possible option for bulkheads and gun carriages.

Plate 1.JPG

 

    Plate 2 consists of plain reds I had.  WINE and PERMANENT RED are not very appealing to me.

Plate 2.JPG

 

     Thoughts and comments?

 

   


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Chuck Seiler
San Diego Ship Modelers Guild
Nautical Research Guild

 
Current Build:
Continental Sloop PROVIDENCE
Continental Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (1/2" Scale Model Shipways Kit)
Colonial Schooner SULTANA (scratch from Model Expo Plans)


On Hold:
Colonial Pinnace VIRGINIA (1607)(scratch)
18th Century Longboat (Model Expo Kit)
 
Completed:
Missouri Riverboat FAR WEST (1876) Scratch
1776 Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (Scratch 1/4 scale-Model Shipways plans)


#19
jbshan

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Obviously, as I have said to Chuck, a painter doesn't have to precisely match colors (usually), but building a model, a lengthy period of time may go by between you painting two ultimately adjoining pieces, and it is far better if you can find a jar or tube straight from a maker's line that you like.  This is what Chuck is trying to do.  Now he merely needs Mr. Peabody's help to go back, paint jars in hand, and match to the original.


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#20
Chuck Seiler

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The other option is when you make a custom color, make a whole lot of it.  <then, of course, it sits in the container and gets all dried out..... :-( >

 

I guess I was supposed to use :(


Edited by Chuck Seiler, 20 October 2016 - 02:01 AM.

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Chuck Seiler
San Diego Ship Modelers Guild
Nautical Research Guild

 
Current Build:
Continental Sloop PROVIDENCE
Continental Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (1/2" Scale Model Shipways Kit)
Colonial Schooner SULTANA (scratch from Model Expo Plans)


On Hold:
Colonial Pinnace VIRGINIA (1607)(scratch)
18th Century Longboat (Model Expo Kit)
 
Completed:
Missouri Riverboat FAR WEST (1876) Scratch
1776 Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (Scratch 1/4 scale-Model Shipways plans)





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