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Cannon Breech Rope Length


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#21
dafi

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- if the recoil distance is 24 feet? 

 

That is not the recoil :-)
 
24 feet is the length of the pure rope. Divided by the middle for left and right minus the "knot" around the eyebolt on the ships side. 
 
This makes 24 feet divided by 2 = 12 feet
12 feet minus bores length of 8 feet makes 4 feet left
 
These 4 feet minus 1 or 2 feet for the knot as the rope is quite stiff makes not too much distance towards the hulls side. Fits more or less the model shown in my last post :-)
 
XXXDAn

Edited by dafi, 19 December 2016 - 08:30 PM.

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#22
mikiek

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For live fire, try this:

or google vasa cannon.

 

Joel - That's a lot more like what I was expecting. That carriage slamming backwards an almost lifting up when it hit the end of the breech rope. Great video.


Edited by mikiek, 20 December 2016 - 01:26 AM.

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#23
mikiek

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Jud - your point is well taken. And I was asking for that reason. Sure the tackles could help slow down the gun but there would be some extreme wear & tear on them as well. Of course, if the breech rope was the only thing stopping a carriage it would not take long for an eyebolt to tear out of the hull.


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#24
jud

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The photos posted in post number 10 show two tail tackles being used to hold the gun against the breaching ropes for loading, what I would expect, much quicker and handier than placing blocks or other methods of fouling the carriage into submission so the gun could be serviced. Also I studied the Vasa footage and noticed that by the time the gun had traveled to the end of the breach rope limits, it was just coasting, still a large mass to stop suddenly. Those large wheels, clean deck and no rigging to cause drag one would allow for the long movement seen in the video, but it does not represent reality, only the physics of the forces at work on that setup. Going to stick with my opinion about how and what was done to control and disperse the forces of a recoiling gun, it was not the breach ropes that were relied on for that, they had other important uses. All the large guns I was around used distance and drag to control recoil while storing energy in a counter recoil system to return the gun to battery. The cannons of old required the same control, physics are the same, just used different technology to deal with potentially damaging forces. Time and resistance, not brute force, was proven to work long ago.

jud


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#25
Mark P

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Hello gentlemen;

 

Thanks Spyglass;  that is an interesting book.

 

Mike: the length of the breeching rope is the overall length,  and would be the length issued from the stores to the ship's gunner.  It would therefore be slightly shortened by any splices in the ends.

 

When the gun was fired,  it ran back rapidly,  until it hit the limits of the breeching rope,  which would pull it up with a jerk.  This was confirmed by Adrian Caruana during experiments.  Without the breeching rope,  cannons,  when fired,  would recoil many yards:  I seem to remember about 40 feet for a 32 pounder.  Once the gun was run out,  ready for firing,  the breeching rope was laid out to each side,  in order to keep it as far as possible from the path the trucks would follow during the recoil. 

 

The gun-tackles were indeed left attached (it was not unusual to mouse the hook that held the tackles to the carriage,  which would have made it impossible to remove easily) and care was taken to lay out the fall of the rope in such a way that it would feed easily through the blocks during recoil.

 

All the best,

 

Mark P


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#26
mikiek

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Thanks Mark - That's kind of how I imagined it although I had nothing to base it on. I do recall the Vasa video showing the quion come flying out as the gun hit the limit of breech line. That's quite a bit of momentum.

 

On this gun deck build, I've decided to place one gun what would be about 2' back from the inner hull with a little slack in the breech line - ready for loading. At the moment I'm planning to have the other one hauled out ready to fire.

 

This has been a really interesting thread. It's funny how one small detail in a build can bring on a good conversation. I've learned from this one.


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#27
thibaultron

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Looked up the book A History of English Sea Ordnance, guess I'll have to pass on buying one. $300 to $400 US, too rich for my budget!


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#28
mikiek

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For any that have read the book. Is it just a collection of specs & tables? Is there any interesting verbiage to go with the numbers?


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Sail on......

 

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Current Builds:

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#29
Mark P

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Hi Mike;

 

It is a large book,  about 2" thick and 12" tall.  It has a wealth of illustrations and scale drawings of cannon barrels and carriages,  as well as a detailed text.  It is written by a man who had a lifelong enthusiasm for cannon,  and who had extensive knowledge of the Ordnance Board's records.

 

I have not seen the earlier volume,  but the 18th century one describes the development of sea artillery,  and deals with every aspect of design,  manufacture,  use and maintenance.  It is broken up into chapters dealing with each separate period of peace and each of war during that century,  and covers the period from 1715 to 1815.  Some of the information is in tabular form,  but the book is far from a collection of lists,  and is interesting to read.

 

If you are keen on producing accurate scale armaments,  or trying to obtain an in-depth knowledge of the subject,  it is perhaps worth the cost.  I found one on Amazon.Japan for $250,  and snapped it up,  although the postage was horrendous,  as the seller did not normally ship to England (I managed to calm down the Admiral over the cost of the book,  but she didn't see the cost of the postage,  fortunately)

 

All the best,

 

Mark P


Edited by Mark P, 23 December 2016 - 07:31 AM.

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#30
dafi

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As it is old enough to be public domain, is there a online version of this book available?

 

XXXDAn


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#31
mikiek

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Thanks Mark - Good to hear it's more than page after page of technical stats in tables.  I have seen a few online that claim to be a 2 volume set "special edition". I'll keep my eyes open. Maybe a late Christmas gift to me.


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#32
allanyed

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Dafi
I don't know about copyrights in Europe but in the US it is for the life of the author plus 70 years if published after 1978. If prior to 1978 it is 95 years. It was published about 1995 so still protected and I assume not available for free. I have volume two and it was worth saving up for.
Allan
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#33
dafi

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Oups, sorry I thought it to be a contemporary book of the 18-hundrets ...

 

Thank you for clarifying!

 

XXXDAn


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To victory and beyond! http://modelshipworl...ory-and-beyond/

 

By the Deep 17 http://modelshipworl...-display/page-4

 

SMS Trinkstein http://modelshipworl...navy/#entry3314

 

See also our german forum for Sailing Ship Modeling and History: http://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com/

 

 

Finest etch parts for HMS Victory 1:100 (Heller Kit) and other useful bits.

http://dafinismus.de/index_en.html

 

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#34
mikiek

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 I have volume two and it was worth saving up for.
Allan

 

That's what I am confused about there appears to be more than one "edition'  One appears to be a single book that covers the  entire date range.  The other claims to be a limited edition set (2 volumes).  Does anyone have any knowledge on what's what?


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  Mike

 

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Current Builds:

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#35
mikiek

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I have come across some reading in Lavery's Ship of the Line V2 that describes the cannon ignition. Sounds like a long gun on a basic truck would take off like a freight train. While the tackles and even the wheel sizes were intended to help slow down, the breech rope is what really did it.

 

He also claims the recoil distance was more substantial than what I had expected. A 24 pounder had a breech tackle 34' long and could recoil up to 17'.   A 6 pounder had a 23' breech line and could recoil about 10' . Ample room to get the tools into the barrel without having to hang out a port window.


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Sail on......

 

  Mike

 

"Dropped a part? Your foot will always find it before your eyes do"

 

Current Builds:

        US Brig Niagara - Model Shipways - First Build

        Section Deck Between Gun Bays - Panart

 


#36
allanyed

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Mike
Because a 24 pounder could travel that far does necessarily mean it was allowed to. If it recoiled 17 feet those opposite a hatch would wimd up down on the next deck. Look at the sketch I posted earlier. That shows 15 feet of travel on a deck that carried 24 pounders. These cannon never come inboard enough to use the tools without going through the gun ports.
Allan

Edited by allanyed, 25 December 2016 - 05:47 PM.

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#37
allanyed

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Mike,

 

I did some digging and cannot find any single addition, only the two volume set, but they can be purchased separately   Most of the models I see on the forum would make Volume II the most useful, but I have been digging into a ship that would require me to have Volume I if I cannot find the information elsewhere in my small library.    I really hate having to see the admiral rolling her eyes if  I mention the need to buy another book related to ship modeling.  She does not buy into the argument that I keep using that it is an investment :rolleyes:

 

Allan 


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#38
mikiek

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Allen - that limited edition set would look great in anyone's library. I can almost smell the leather covers. :)

 

I think I was getting the hardbound version confused. It appears to be 2 volumes. Abe Books in the UK has several - hardbound and limited editions.


Edited by mikiek, 28 December 2016 - 05:14 AM.

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Sail on......

 

  Mike

 

"Dropped a part? Your foot will always find it before your eyes do"

 

Current Builds:

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        Section Deck Between Gun Bays - Panart

 


#39
mikiek

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Allen - I am contacting Abe Books about one of the sets they have posted. Will let you know.


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Sail on......

 

  Mike

 

"Dropped a part? Your foot will always find it before your eyes do"

 

Current Builds:

        US Brig Niagara - Model Shipways - First Build

        Section Deck Between Gun Bays - Panart

 


#40
allanyed

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Mike

Good luck and happy New Year

Allan


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