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HMS Fly Specs Needed


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#21
Chuck

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Joe,

 

I see that you are just jumping from one project to another.  What is your end goal?   The other three or for projects you have started in the last month have all been from free plans you are finding around the web.  Do you intend to build any of the others you have recently started as a wooden model?  I am just curious as it doesnt seem you ever intend to pay for any plans but just find any that are downloadable from across the web for free.  Many of which are already complete (like mediator and Triton) and you could already start making sawdust.  Are you just planning to make 3D renderings?

 

I am just curious because we would be able to help you if we understood your actual intentions.  The other projects you have already started are enough to last a builder years of pleasure in the workshop.  Watch those foreign sites with the RAR files you have used.....those are a malicious virus waiting to happen.  Others are pirated copies of plans from authors which we will not allow to be used here as a project.  So be careful.

 

Chuck

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Chuck Passaro - MSW Admin 

 

Current build - HMS Winchelsea - POB scratch build

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www.syrenshipmodelcompany.com

 


#22
JosephHuntley

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Hi Chuck I am  trying to find something I can fully understand before I cut wood. the others as I was drawing them up found errors in them I need to correct and slowly working on them. I dont mind paying for plans once i know exactly what i am getting. like i said with wife sickly and all the money going out for hospital deductables etc its hard to fully justify spending a lot of money on plans I dont know what I am getting.

 

the plans i have started in cad was so I could understand how thiese old ships go together ie learning how to build them. unfortunatley i am finding some errors need corrected. the triton drawings I was converting for a gentleman back to cad from the pdf. I was using them to try to figure out all the extraneous lines in them. ie as i learned bevels. those bevels are throwing me off as to what the regular flat pattern should be thus i havent started cutting. the wapama and a couple others have errors like the latest the deck chamber and lines are all wavy and not correct and as i was told another person had the same problem. so as much as I want to start building something while sitting here keeping an eye on the wife i havent found something straight forward easy for me to understand. I want to do a POF over a POB and looking for something with overall dimensions of no more than 30" tall so it will fit into my vehicle. I have had 35 yrs to figure all that out with aircraft with ships i have only been trying to find something for a couple months.

I now have several books on framing and designing old ships to read through as I design something for myself but would love to be building something at the same time. I guess I am spoiled by too many years of plain straight out plans for planes where all the parts are layed out as flat 2D parts with no extra stuff added as bevels etc which will come naturally as the wood is sanded. even p[lanes need formers beveled to allow sheeting but no need to dirty up plans showing them. thus why i havent started anything yet as havent found any clean straight forward plans of anything.

 

sorry for taking up space with other posts but i wanted people to chime in if they saw me going in the wrong direction or had problems which i did learn a lot already from those experiences.



#23
dvm27

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Joseph, perhaps the "pasted up" sheets you have described are from Garyb's Swan class blog. You should reread it.

 

Building a contemporary naval vessel such as as Swan class sloop is a very complex project. Drafting your own plans is even more difficult. It takes months and even years to fully understand all the various lines present on a Navy Board plan. I've been building models of this era for years and still get confused by the various sweeps.

 

"I now have several books on framing and designing old ships to read through as I design something for myself but would love to be building something at the same time"

 

That's terrific, but if you want to build a fully framed sixth rate or Swan class ship now there is no short cut. The Admiralty Models Mylar plan and CD of lofted frames are based on the original plans and corrected for distortions in the paper. You could build a model of a generic Swan class ship using just them but, as a ship model novice builder, you would greatly benefit from the step by step directions of the Swan class books. Also, Toni, Dan and others have posted exceptional blogs of their building experiences, warts and all.

 

Feel free to e-mail me at dvm27@comcast.net if you have any specific questions. I'll be happy to send you a sample frame or two to better understand what you are purchasing.


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Greg

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#24
JosephHuntley

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thanks greg ill prob take a couple days to read through some build threads and then probably order a set of plans. you are right i can draw up a plane blindfolded and even drew up and built the full scale B-24 bomber for the movie unbroken and the one in the virginia air and space museum as well as a full scale wright flyer for virgin atlantic commercial during the 100th anniversary of flight, but trying to find decent drawings just to start drawing up a nice set of ship plans from totally sux



#25
JosephHuntley

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I was looking on the admiralty site but couldnt see it listed what is the overall length and height of the fly and what scale would it be at?


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#26
JosephHuntley

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Ok I broke down and decided to order set of plans hoping didnt make a mistake but from the threads I have seen I am guessing I will be pleased with my plans. thanks guys for the input. I know I may have sounded crass but right now that was a lot of money for me but wife said i needed something to do while just sitting round cause I was getting cranky

 

Joe

 

now the wait for them to get here ((


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#27
GemmaJF

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Joe, I think I can give some clarity being from the aerospace side of things (aerospace engineer/pilot) who also made model planes in the past. Early ship plans and aircraft plans are chalk and cheese. One can build plane models from actual original engineering drawings. Now roll back in history to the 1700's. Ships were built from half models to start with.

 

Only later were plans even produced and often after the event as a record of the ship rather than an engineering drawing to build the ship from. The guys on the forum will know much more about exactly when this started to happen than I do.

 

So what you have is a situation where shipwrights built ships from a set of rules and conventions rather than directly from plans, these rules changing for different classes and nations. To go from this to a working drawing suitable to build a model is a long process.

 

To be fair there are plenty of rubbish plans for aircraft too, many drawn by enthusiasts who were certainly not trained as a draughtsman and this will always show up if converting to CAD, particularly if they did not understand the basics of producing a technical drawing such as projection. Now consider that one is bound to run into this with early ship plans considering what they are and how they came about.


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If it is not a challenge, it is just a chore...


#28
trippwj

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thanks greg ill prob take a couple days to read through some build threads and then probably order a set of plans. you are right i can draw up a plane blindfolded and even drew up and built the full scale B-24 bomber for the movie unbroken and the one in the virginia air and space museum as well as a full scale wright flyer for virgin atlantic commercial during the 100th anniversary of flight, but trying to find decent drawings just to start drawing up a nice set of ship plans from totally sux

 

 

Joe, I think I can give some clarity being from the aerospace side of things (aerospace engineer/pilot) who also made model planes in the past. Early ship plans and aircraft plans are chalk and cheese. One can build plane models from actual original engineering drawings. Now roll back in history to the 1700's. Ships were built from half models to start with.

 

Only later were plans even produced and often after the event as a record of the ship rather than an engineering drawing to build the ship from. The guys on the forum will know much more about exactly when this started to happen than I do.

 

So what you have is a situation where shipwrights built ships from a set of rules and conventions rather than directly from plans, these rules changing for different classes and nations. To go from this to a working drawing suitable to build a model is a long process.

 

To be fair there are plenty of rubbish plans for aircraft too, many drawn by enthusiasts who were certainly not trained as a draughtsman and this will always show up if converting to CAD, particularly if they did not understand the basics of producing a technical drawing such as projection. Now consider that one is bound to run into this with early ship plans considering what they are and how they came about.

 

Indeed, the available contemporary plans for a wooden ship are of widely varying detail.  Early ships were built by eye and by rule.  A viking ship, for example, was based on proportions along the length and breadth of the ship.  No plans involved.  Early plans were little better than sketches, with a greater focus on the adornments and less on the structural components.  The development of the lines plans (I seem to recall that was during the late 17th early 18th centuries) was a major advancement, meant to complement the builder's model submitted for approval.  These plans were not construction drawings, but rather to guide the workers in the mould loft in laying down the full size moulds.  Into the 20th century, however, many vessels were built using solely the half models, not any plans.

 

It was not until fairly recently in wooden ship years that detailed construction drawings came into use.  The model plans where detailed construction drawings such as individual frames, deck structures, mast & rigging diagrams and so on, are provided are modern attempts by an individual to provide the model builder with tools which the ship  builder of old already knew - they didn't need to be shown the construction of a frame as it was either in the specifications or something they knew.  Likewise the bevels on a frame were found in the mould loft and then transferred to the frames during construction.

 

All in all, perhaps the most detailed model builder plans for a POF model are those for the Swan class, Naiad and similar published by Seawatch books.  Exceptional detail, including plans and books, detailed building descriptions, and wonderful photos of each step.  There are others out there, and some are of like quality, but I haven't researched that enough to speak intelligently about other suppliers.

 

Good luck with the build!


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Wayne

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#29
JosephHuntley

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thanks guys for the descriptions it really helps understand stuff a little clearer


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#30
allanyed

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Joseph,

 

Take all of the comments above seriously, they are good pieces of information for all of us.   There are a few exceptions in later years, and even one or two as early as the early 18th century regarding detailed drawings.   One example are the deck plans of the Hampton Court 1709 which show a lot of details on how the beams were (or were to be constructed), knees, &tc.   When Seppings was in charge in England, there were a number of detailed drawings, especially cross sections showing chocks, joints, metal and wood knees and more.  Alas, anything from the Seppings era is likely too "modern" for your subject build. 

 

Cross sections with a lot of detail from early 19th century and deck plans of the Hampton Court follow   .   Again, these are not commonly found but they do exist. 

 

Allan

 

 

Attached Thumbnails

  • Cross Section 11-1-10.JPG
  • Talavera cross section (3) (706x800).jpg
  • Hampton Court 70 gun 1709 Deck Plans.jpg

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#31
JosephHuntley

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thanks I am trying to understand it all it is slowly making sense I just need to figure out what need to order for the sloop plans and just how to get them so I have what i need to go with the stuff from Admiralty


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#32
JosephHuntley

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ok I figured out what other drawings I needed and I actually already had them. I have 600 drawings from the greenwich museum



#33
Matrim

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Which are never released except with the purchaser signing that they will not distribute them and are for private use only.

 

Please don't post links which freely spread material which should not be spread.   Those plans are stored and looked after by paid staff who are paid because people 'pay' for copies of the plans for their own personal use or as an agreement with the museum,.

 

I have removed the link.


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Ours is a life of constant reruns. We're always circling back to where we'd we started, then starting all over again. Even if we don't run extra laps that day, we surely will come back for more of the same another day soon. - Joe Henderson


#34
JosephHuntley

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ok sorry figured they would be public domain as are the smithsonian drawings as they are naval drawings thus the property of the public. even new aircraft carriers are public domain even if you pay the museums or shipyards for copies. i dealt with this a lot woth aircraft and other things I got from smithsonian so didnt think there was anything wrong sorry about that. but any military drawings are considered public domain even if you need to pay for copies as the public are the ones that pay for the vessels in taxes etc thus they already own them



#35
Matrim

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If you have permission from the plans owners then you can publish full plans. The NMM would not grant this without you paying a lot of money.

 

Reasoning from one country is also not always applicable to a different country.


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Ours is a life of constant reruns. We're always circling back to where we'd we started, then starting all over again. Even if we don't run extra laps that day, we surely will come back for more of the same another day soon. - Joe Henderson


#36
Jack12477

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ok sorry figured they would be public domain as are the smithsonian drawings as they are naval drawings thus the property of the public. even new aircraft carriers are public domain even if you pay the museums or shipyards for copies. i dealt with this a lot woth aircraft and other things I got from smithsonian so didnt think there was anything wrong sorry about that. but any military drawings are considered public domain even if you need to pay for copies as the public are the ones that pay for the vessels in taxes etc thus they already own them

 

 

Careful. Just because something is in the Smithsonian does not necessarily mean it is in the Public Domain. You need to verify that with the Smithsonian or Library of Congess (United States) before hand. I would recommend a reading of this overview on Public Domain


Edited by Jack12477, 13 January 2017 - 09:21 PM.

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Jack
 
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#37
JosephHuntley

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I deal with them all the time. any plans of any US Military Vehicle etc is the property of the taxpayers of the United States. they may charge for copying them etc but anything military is considered the property of us taxpayers thats  why so much stuff is freely available on govt sites if you dig deep enough.

 

like the aircorps library is a private site for restoration of aircraft and they put all the microfilm they get a hold of for ppl to view and download. the reason they can do it is it is documents of military aircraft thus not covered by copyrights.


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#38
AnobiumPunctatum

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It depends on the scale you like to build your model. If you build it 1/48 or smaller an A4 sheet is enough. As you like to build her in a bigger scale -for example 1/32, as I do- you need an A3 sheet


Edited by AnobiumPunctatum, 14 January 2017 - 08:26 AM.

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Regards Christian
 

In the shipyard: HM Sloop Fly, 1776 - Scale 1/32;

On the drawing board: Naval Cutter Rattlesnake, 1777 - Scale 1/32


#39
Matrim

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deal with them all the time. any plans of any US Military Vehicle etc is the property of the taxpayers of the United States

 

You do realise the HMS Fly is not a US Military Vehicle?

 

Regardless as to different museums, (for all I know when you say 'Greenwich' you don't mean the NMM but 'Greenwich, Alaska')  we follow copyright laws here and the site does have rules. So do not share links to plan sets and do not post them whole unless you have permission ( fair use provisions do of course apply).
 

Thank you.


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Ours is a life of constant reruns. We're always circling back to where we'd we started, then starting all over again. Even if we don't run extra laps that day, we surely will come back for more of the same another day soon. - Joe Henderson


#40
JosephHuntley

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ok No problem wont post just to be safe that way don't have to worry abt that stuff


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