Researching a Constitution Build

[fletch944t]

Well, where to begin.

 

I'm not new to the hobby but, have been away from it for a while. But, I AM new to the forum. I've tried to do some research up front so that I don't ask too many questions that have already been asked but, invariably I probably will anyway.

 

I've been a huge fan of the Constitution ever since I was young and read a library book detailing the history of the Constitution. I did a medium size wooden Constitution build many years ago but, after a number of long-distance moves it was eventually destroyed to the point that it was no longer repairable.

 

After many years away, I've decided to embark on another Constitution build. In all likelihood, I'm going to purchase the Model Shipways kit. I've already downloaded and printed the instruction manual.

 

However, I'd love to build the MS Constitution to 1812 Era specs. I know there are some folks on here who are in the process of doing that as we speak. I've already been reading through Cookster's build log. However, I'm having a little trouble locating others doing this build.

 

Also, many years ago, I purchased the Bluejacket Constitution manuals and build sheets. I managed to dig them out of the closet the other day and knock all the dust off them. I've been going through them as well and it appears they're going to be a big help in identifying the differences and making the necessary modifications.

 

And, I'll also be purchasing the Constitution plans CD from the Constitution Museum.

 

Which finally brings me to a couple of questions.

 

First, do any of you know others besides Cookster who are building the MS Constitution to 1812 Era specs? If so, would you please point me in their direction (assuming of course they're maintaining a build log).

 

Second, do any of you know if anyone has taken the time to generate a single-source list of the differences between the MS kit and the 1812 Era Constitution?

 

Third, are there any other resources you can recommend to help me identify areas where the MS Constitution needs to be modified to build it to 1812 Era specs?

 

Finally, I'd just like to say that it's pretty amazing that folks here have taken the time to post their build logs. I could sit and read them all day. Matter of fact, today I did. I have no doubt that using the build logs that many of you have taken the time to post as a reference, it will make a challenging build go much smoother. And, I'd just like to thank you folks up front.

 

Regards,

Fletch

 

 

[mtaylor]

Hi Fletch,

 

Welcome to MSW.  

 

I'd do a search here: http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/forum/13-ships-plans-and-scratch-research-general-research-on-specific-vessels-and-ship-types/  and here:  http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/forum/5-nautical-history-and-research/  using the key word "Constitution".  

 

As I understand it, the Bluejacket is very close to the 1812 ship.  The MS is based on the 1929 rework.   There are quite a few builds of her.  I know of one in particular who's researching and building and might be some help but it's the Revell kit... Force9 is building.

 

Hopefully, others will speak up that might have more info.

[GuntherMT]

Welcome to MSW Fletch.  I've only been here since the middle of August, but I couldn't agree more with your comments about build logs.  I'm pretty sure I've learned more from the build logs than everything else combined since I started this hobby just over a couple months ago.

 

I've also learned a great deal by posting my own log, where plenty of amazing people have given me excellent feedback, and also the simple act of taking the pictures, putting what I've done into words, and then looking at what I've done in the photo's (close ups are an unforgiving mistress) has been an awesome learning tool, so I absolutely recommend starting your own log whenever you get started.

[DaveF]

Hi Fletch:

 

  He's not on this site but MSB. His name is Cadman there and he is drawing the Constitution to those specs. I know he has done a lot of research into it and been in touch with the curators etc at the museum.

 Maybe he can help

 Look under plans section I think.

 Dave

[usedtosail]

I am attempting to build the MS kit in an 1812 configuration. The link to my build log is below. Also, check out this build log, which is plastic but has a lot of information on the 1812 configuration:

 

http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/270-uss-constitution-by-force9-revell-plastic-revisiting-the-classic-196-kit/#entry2211

 

TimI and Mundie are also building the MS kit in the 1812 configuration.

[CaptainSteve]

Ahoy, Fletch !!

 

Welcome to MSW and the 'Connie Club' !!

 

A couple of years back, I decided that the USS Constitution was THE ship I really wanted to build next.

Through good luck (and Google), I stumbled upon THIS place. Since then, I have never looked back !!

 

I highly recommend you check through the many build-logs of others who have built - or are building - Connie.

Use the search facilities.

Try terms such as: Constitution, MS 2040, Shipways, 1812.

Pour yourself a very tall glass of your favourite adult beverage .. then sit back and read.

(Ignore the log featuring the red-bearded gentleman to the left, as even twenty months later, he is still yet to lay his keel !!!)

 

In addition, it is my personal opinion that the next few years will prove especially interesting. This is because the original ship is currently being prepared for renovation/re-building to bring her to 1812 specifications !!

 

I am happy to sit back and watch & learn.

Edited October 30, 2014 by CaptainSteve

[robnbill]

Welcome Fletch,

I too am currently building a Connie. Targeting the 1812 version will be fun and challenging. As CaptianSteve mentioned, the real Connie is headed into dry dock this spring for a multiyear rebuild I don't think they have published a list of everything they are going to do but interest is great to see what they will be doing on the bow and stern.

 

One thing you will find as you go through the logs here is everyone who has worked on her or is thinking about working on her has strong opinions on what she should be configured like. However, it depends on the source of material that each builder has determined will be the definitive source for them. Some of the areas that you will find a great deal of discussion around:

 

1) The stern - the configuration of windows, the number and layout,

2) The stern - The ornamentations on the stern, some paintings have a much more elaborate stern than that on the ship currently

3) Gun ports - Do they have covers or not, if so, are the split or solid.

4) Gun stripe - What color should this be. There is evidence this strip was painted yellow at least one period during her life,

5) Bow - What did it look like. Originally she had a Hercules figurehead, which was destroyed in a collision during her first voyage in the Med. There was also a period she had a figurehead of President Jackson, but that was in the 1830's so probably not something you would want. For most of here life she has carried the simple fiddlehead like she has now but I do not think the exact pattern of it is known.

6) Rigging - Each captain decided the rigging that they were going to have on the ship. Indeed, the sources around the Connie suggest that she was considered a slow ship for a number of years. So masts have been shifted, yards have been changed, and the general sail plan has changed depending on the captain. 

7) The bowsprit - The hull model shows steps from the forward deck up to the bowsprit. Most models do not as the current ship does not. There are steps up the bowsprit but stop when they get to the bulkhead.

8) Armament - How many guns and of what type did she carry in 1812. 

9) Ships Boats - These changed over the years as they tended to get destroyed pretty easily. Most models show her with 4, but she carried many more than that at times. The extra boats were usually stacked over the main hatch.

 

The bottom line is you will need to do your research and decide which source you will follow. Each source has it's advocates as well as it's detractors. For every point above, and many more, you will find those who feel very strongly about each side. No one knows who is totally correct since there is no documentation that answers any of these points with absolute certainty. So build your Connie with the choices you decide represents what you think she looked like. It is your ship. If you do have specific questions about a particular area, ask. I guarantee you will get a great deal feedback and opinions on what each of us thinks. Then you will have to decide what to do. What you will not get is someone to tell you this is exactly what she looked like. 

 

The Constitution Museum historians are there to help. I have reached out to them a number of times and they have been helpful. You can also obtain some of the Connie's wood from the museum and use it in your model should you be interested in having a piece o the old girl in your ship.

 

The Connie is a fun and challenging ship to build and should provide you with many hours of pleasure. Take your time, it will probably be a multiyear effort to complete her. At least it has been for most of us. 

 

Welcome to the forum. I look forward to your build and what you will be adding to the knowledge base of the ship.

Edited October 30, 2014 by robnbill

[fletch944t]

Wow. Thanks everyone for all the responses. Each and every one has been extremely helpful. The amount of support here is truly overwhelming.

 

As it turns out, I'm in a position financially (as of today) to go ahead and pull the trigger on a kit. Not that I'll start construction any time soon. I'm anticipating many months of research before I begin any work. However, I figure if I go ahead and purchase the kit now, it can at least help me begin to identify the necessary changes. And, I've already started a hand-written log of items that are attributes of the 1812 Era Connie. Of course, I'll transfer all of that to a construction log once I actually begin work.

 

I guess the one thing I've already realized about this project is that there are some items of that era that we can say as fact but, many more items which are our "best guess" based on circumstantial evidence and in some cases speculation.

 

Now, for those of you who are still awake (I'm sure that narrows the field dramatically), and those who have purchased an MS Constitution kit, from whom did you purchase your kit?

 

Thanks a ton,

Fletch    

Edited October 31, 2014 by fletch944t

[Walter Biles]

Fletch,

 

Model EXPO has been advertising it at $299 for awhile but it is a sale price, and I am not sure how long it may still be good.  Model Expo has an emblem link on the main site along the right side.  I think you can get through with www.modelexpo-online.com/default.asp.  I looked it up.   I wouldn't wait if you want it at that price It is regularly $499.  You might be able to find a phone # 1-800-222-3876 on the site to confirm what discount code to use and if it is still in effect.  I know I was always wanting to do the Connie and at that price it would be an exceptional buy, but my finances forbid even that kind of outlay. 

 

Walter Biles

Edited October 31, 2014 by Walter Biles

[usedtosail]

Use code OC8 at Model Expo and you can get it for $299, although it is on backorder at the moment. This is one of the cheapest prices I have seen for it.

[GLakie]

Yup, if you're going to by the Connie, now is a good time to commit to it.  $299 is a price that probably won't come around again for a while, if ever. I waited for a sale, and still ended up paying $399 last February. The site lists it at $499 right now, but the mailed version of their catalog reflects the sale price. It IS on back-order now. Getting the ship and studying the plans ahead of time is a good idea.

 

Cheers      

[fletch944t]

Well, I got on Model Expo and tried several different codes I had found (before I got usedtosail's post) and none of them worked. So, I ended up pulling the trigger somewhere else and paid right at $400 shipped. Should be here around Nov. 7th.

 

I have accumulated a ton of tools over the years but, most of them are not suited to model ship building. So, I've been going through the tools I already own to see what I could use and went and purchase a few more tools (small files, small carving set, pliers, nips, extra hemostats, a few small clamps, hobby knife set, micro drill bits, tweezers).

 

I know that many of you have a lot of power tools. So, just out of curiosity, for those of you who use power tools for modeling, how would you rank them in order of importance?

 

Thanks,
Fletch 

[GLakie]

A scroll-saw or bench-top band-saw with a 1/8" scrolling blade will be something that will make carving those bow and stern filler blocks a lot easier, right at the beginning stages for the hull framing. I went with a little 9" band-saw myself because of it's usefulness for other projects. A rotary tool like a Dremmel and accessories, with the Flex-shaft attachment and Work-station would also be useful. Then a small disc sander for shaping purposes. Other than that, unless you want to start milling your own wood, like I've decided to do, you should be good to go.

 

Cheers

Edited November 2, 2014 by GLakie

[GuntherMT]

Well, I got on Model Expo and tried several different codes I had found (before I got usedtosail's post) and none of them worked. So, I ended up pulling the trigger somewhere else and paid right at $400 shipped. Should be here around Nov. 7th.

 

For future reference, Model Expo's web site is terrible at showing the prices until the very last step where you are confirming everything after putting in your payment method, as that is where they apply the discount. 

 

On the main page, when you click on the "Specials" section, it currently shows the Connie at $299 still and gives the code to use when you land on that screen.  So you can apply the code at any step in the process, but the discount only applies right at the end.

[Walter Biles]

Fletch,

 

I'm sorry I did not mention about the code window.  If you want the pricing reflected by a code, there is a little window at the top.  However, if after entering the code, you don't click on the check mark to the right, it wouldn't show except on final checkout where you would have to put it in.  I lost out by paying full regular price on several sale items that way, until I figured that out.  When you have the code entered with the check mark, it will show the code to the right of that in the corner area.  I got pretty disgusted before I figured out what it was for.  The code kept disappearing until I was in checkout, and I would have to enter it all over again. 

 

When you get the code in with the check mark during the main screen, all sale prices show instead of the regular price.  Then when you get to checkout, it will show there as well.  I tend to think of those things only as being from my apnea brain malfunctions, in stead of it might confuse anybody.  Sorry.

 

Walter Biles

Edited November 3, 2014 by Walter Biles

[GLakie]

Yeah, you would think they could make it a little easier to find the sales and use the codes. 

 

Cheers

[Guest Tim I.]

Hello Fletch,

 

I wish you luck on your Constitution project. It is a fun ship to build and research. I did a lot of research before I purchased a kit, I decided on the Model Shipways because of price and there are a lot of aftermarket parts you can buy to kitbash it.

 

As for kit accuracy, if your looking for a manufacture as it has been mentioned above, Blue Jacket offers a very nice kit, but it is pricey. The Model Shipways kit (the one I have) is also very accurate to the 1925 refit, but can easily be moved back to an 1813 (approximate) configuration. I say approximate, as there are several points of discourse on her 1812 configuration (stern lights - windows, transom detail, spar deck configuration, the disposition of gun port lids, yellow ochre or white gun-stripe, height of her spar deck sheer), the list goes on. 

 

There are several incredible build logs on the forums of those that are building the ship. I would recommend Force9's Revell kit-bash if your looking for some excellent research, and I would recommend going through the various build logs here (of various manufactures) to get an idea of what you want.

 

Good luck, and I look forward to following your build log once you get started!

 

- Tim

[fletch944t]

Thanks for all the replies. I'll have to remember to code thing for the next model purchase on Model Expo.

 

Anyway, I've been wanting to pull the trigger on a small band saw for a long time. There are a lot of other projects I've done recently where I could have used it. However, I'd really like to have a scroll saw for modeling. Since I'm planning on getting back into woodworking in a big way over the next few years, I'll probably just go ahead with the scroll saw and get a larger band saw down the road.

 

BTW, for those of you who have already purchased the MS 2040 kit, did it come with 20 Carronades? I ask because the information I'm finding regarding the armament in 1812 during the battle with the HMS Guerriere leads one to believe that she was carrying 24 - 32 lb. Carronades, 30 Cecil Iron Works 24 lb. long guns, and one 18 lb. chase gun (really one?).  

 

Thanks,

Fletch

[GLakie]

Yes, mine came with 20 carronades and 2- 24 lb. long guns for the spar deck, and 30- 24 lb. dummy barrels for the gun deck. The kit seems to be aligned to the 1927 restoration.

 

Cheers

Edited November 3, 2014 by GLakie

[Guest seaburd]

I've been to Boston many times ans walked on the deck of the Constitution, I even bought a blueprint from the store there and had it framed, they also sell pcs of the wood from the ship from previous refurbs, it's very cool to walk on the decks if you can get up to Boston, looks like we will be going this coming summer, a guy I worked with that got me into this hobby did the model and a cross section, put them in one case, and it was sweet. I told him a pc of actual wood in there would finish it rite off, we're both carpenters and he has done many ship models. Good luck on your build.

[fletch944t]

I looked on the Constitution museum web site and all I was able to find was wooden pens made from Constitution wood.

 

I'd love to include some wood from one of the Constitution rebuilds but, have yet to be able to locate any.

 

Changing the subject, I was looking through the Laurence Arnot book on the Constitution that comes with the Bluejacket kit (ordered the Bluejacket plans with Arnot book years ago) and I was looking at the stern configuration shown in his book. I found it extremely odd that the 1812 stern configuration in his book shows six windows, and that the configuration is based in large part on study of the Corne paintings of the battle with the HMS Guerriere. Yet when you look at the Corne paintings, they appear to show five stern windows.

 

I know that this has been a huge point of contention amongst Constitution modelers over the years and I certainly don't want to dredge that topic up again. But, I just found it extremely odd that Arnot would show a configuration that is different from the resource he references.

 

Fletch 

Edited November 3, 2014 by fletch944t

[Landlubber Mike]

This will be a fun build to watch.  I think it's really cool to watch people add historical accuracy to builds.

 

As for your Model Expo order, you might want to call them and say you had trouble with using the code.  Maybe they will extend you the sale price.

 

Good luck, and post a build log!

[michaelpsutton2]

A while back I started an inquiry into the window arrangements You might search "USS Constitution quarter gallery window panes"

Maybe you will uncover some information in your search that you could share with me.

 

Happy hunting

[Bill Hime]

Goodmorning fellas,

I'd like to get in on this Constitution discussion. My question is what is the consensus among those that are in charge of curation and the upcoming restoration of the actual ship herself? I'm in the process of ordering several books along with the Blue Jacket plans. I'm going to enlarge the plans to my scale and hope to develop a framing blue print to work with.

I am most interested in your builds and research ideas

 

Sincere Regards,

 

Bill 

[fletch944t]

Thanks Mike. However, when I had trouble with the Model Expo code, I went to eBay to a "make and offer" MS 2040 auction. I made what I thought was a pretty low offer and it was accepted almost immediately. In retrospect, I wish I had dropped it another $25 which was my original plan.

 

I'll keep you posted on the stern configuration research. If not here, I'll include it in my build log once I start. When I do start my build log, I plan to include everything I plan to bash about the kit in one post. One of the things I've noticed is that every time someone wants to do the MS kit to 1812 specs, it's like re-inventing the wheel as far as the amount of research that goes into the build. I'd like to put all of that in one location as opposed to being spread out all over a build log or even multiple build logs.

 

Fletch

[robnbill]

The group that supports the Connie giving tours in period costume is also responsible for suppling the wood to the museum. If you contact them, they could probably arrange to get you a piece of the wood. Popeye2sea is part of this group and pointed me in that direction for mine. They ask for you to consider giving a small donation to their group since it is non-profit and supports a great cause. The link is below.

 

 

www.1812marines.org

 

Seaburd, in March 2015, the ship is going into dry dock for a number of years undergoing a major refit. So if you wait until summer, you will probably be out of luck in getting aboard her.

Edited November 3, 2014 by robnbill

[fletch944t]

Thanks Bill. I'll give those folks a call.

[Bill Hime]

robnbill,

Can the ship be boarded in the winter months?

 

Sincere Regards,

 

Bill

[robnbill]

From the Connie's site.

 

 

Public Tour Hours

SHIP TOURS ARE FREE OF CHARGE - ALL PERSONS AGE 18 AND OLDER MUST PRESENT A VALID FEDERAL OR STATE-ISSUED PHOTO I.D. OR PASSPORT TO BOARD THE SHIP.

October 20, 2014 - March 2015:
OPEN Thursday - Sunday, 10 a.m. - 4 p.m.
CLOSED Monday - Wednesday

SHIP TOURS ARE FREE OF CHARGE - ALL PERSONS AGE 18 AND OLDER MUST PRESENT A VALID FEDERAL OR STATE-ISSUED PHOTO I.D. OR PASSPORT TO BOARD THE SHIP.

[fletch944t]

I read an article last week on the Constitution entering dry dock. Apparently, she entered her refit period on October 20th but, according to the article, would be available for tours on a limited basis until the summer of 2015. That seems to be confirmed by Bill's post.

 

After next summer, Connie won't be back in the water until 2017 and won't be back at her normal berth until the summer of 2018. Kind of disappointing. I've visited before and toured the ship and the museum. But, my kids were very young and I didn't get to spend as much time there as I would have liked. After I decided to do the build, I thought it would be nice to schedule another visit but, to my disappointment, she had entered her refit period a few days before. I don't think there's anyway I can get up there for a tour before they discontinue them.

 

As a note of interest (possibly) the Constellation entered dry dock in Baltimore within a few days of Connie entering her refit period. Okay maybe someone will find it interesting.

 

Fletch

Edited November 4, 2014 by fletch944t