Jump to content

Welcome to Model Ship World
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Chain pumps on first and second rates


  • Please log in to reply
48 replies to this topic

#21
dafi

dafi
  • Members
  • 1,845 posts
  • LocationLudwigsburg Germany

Funny enough I just prepared a post parallel to yours in our german forum towards this topic, thank you Mark :-)

 

 

If one looks long enough one can find wondrous things in well known sources ...
 
Here is a picture I posted a long time ago when I was dealing with the pumps in my build                                           #157                         .
It shows the draughts of the repair in 1788 and clearly indicates the cisterns in the two decks:
 
800_Victory-NMM-pump-plan.jpg
 
Also I detected some marks exactly in the positions the elm tree pumps had to be (blue circles). But not two of them like today - in the lower and upper deck - no there were three. As today one pump is situated in the upper deck I supposed the one on this deck missing in the drawing (green circle)
 
Lately I realised something on a well known picture:
SLR0782;  Scale: 1:24. A midship sectional model of the 110-gun first rate ship HMS Queen (1839)
 
Pumps-HMS-Queen_7330a.jpg
 
Do you see it, do you see it?!?
 
One pump (light blue) goes to the lower deck and two go to the middle deck, none to the upper deck, just as seen in the drawing of 1788.
 
Pumps-HMS-Queen_7330c.jpg
 
... very interesting ...
 
... and do you see more!?
 
What are those octagonal double bits always on to of one cisterne?
 
Fore pump ...
 
Pumps-HMS-Queen_7330d.jpg
 
... aft pump.
 
Pumps-HMS-Queen_7330b.jpg
 
Usually ships of that class used to have both chain pumps reaching the upper deck.
 
And ... no handles or wheels shown ...
 
Questions over questions - it stays puzzling :-)
 
XXXDAn
 
PS: Mark, you are welcome, and thanks biting the bait ;-)

Edited by dafi, 04 December 2014 - 10:04 PM.

  • WackoWolf, robin b and druxey like this

To victory and beyond! http://modelshipworl...ory-and-beyond/

 

By the Deep 17 http://modelshipworl...-display/page-4

 

SMS Trinkstein http://modelshipworl...navy/#entry3314

 

See also our german forum for Sailing Ship Modeling and History: http://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com/

 

 

Finest etch parts for HMS Victory 1:100 (Heller Kit) and other useful bits.

http://dafinismus.de/index_en.html

 

Honorary Member of the Tic-Tac-Man-Appreciation-Society


#22
dafi

dafi
  • Members
  • 1,845 posts
  • LocationLudwigsburg Germany

Here are some more interesting details:

 

The detail mentioned from Mark on Princess Royal 1773 as model ...

pump%20_qcharl.jpg

 

... and as drawing in NMM ZAZ0339 ...

http://collections.r...ects/80130.html

large.jpg

 

... with an interesting detail:

Bildschirmfoto 2014-12-04 um 23.49.08.png

 

 

See also ZAZ0348 for the same detail. Anybody with a better resolution?

http://collections.r...ects/80139.html

 

 

Also Sandwich 1759 ZAZ0494

http://collections.r...ects/80285.html

large.jpg

 

ZAZ0496

http://collections.r...ects/80287.html

large.jpg

 

The same seen on Duke 1785 ZAZ0219

http://collections.r...ects/80010.html

large.jpg

ZAZ0215

http://collections.r...ects/80006.htmllarge.jpg

 

ZAZ0216

http://collections.r...ects/80007.html

large.jpg

 

Could possibly be also seen on 'Barfleur' (1768); 'Prince George' (1772) ZAZ0349

http://collections.r...ects/80140.html

large.jpg

 

 

 

HMS 

Britannia (1820); Prince Regent (1823); ZAZ4908; http://collections.r...cts/84699.html 

 

pumps-Britannia_7347.jpg

 

Queen Charlotte 1810

http://collections.r...09.html ZAZ0018

 

pumps-Q-Charlotte_7338.jpg

 

 

HMS Hibernia 1804 ZAZ0012

http://collections.r...ects/79803.html

pumps-Hibernia_7354.jpg

 

HMS Nelson

pumps-Nelson_7343.jpg

PAH9223

http://collections.r...cts/149170.html

 

pumps-Nelson-1814_7323.jpg
 
And interesting too, the spanish Salvador del Mundo ZAZ0042
 
pumps-Salva-del-Mun_7355.jpg

Edited by dafi, 04 December 2014 - 11:28 PM.

  • WackoWolf, robin b and druxey like this

To victory and beyond! http://modelshipworl...ory-and-beyond/

 

By the Deep 17 http://modelshipworl...-display/page-4

 

SMS Trinkstein http://modelshipworl...navy/#entry3314

 

See also our german forum for Sailing Ship Modeling and History: http://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com/

 

 

Finest etch parts for HMS Victory 1:100 (Heller Kit) and other useful bits.

http://dafinismus.de/index_en.html

 

Honorary Member of the Tic-Tac-Man-Appreciation-Society


#23
mtaylor

mtaylor

    Bilge Rat

  • SPECIAL CONTRIBUTOR
  • 14,221 posts
  • LocationMedford, OR

Daniel,

 

On the Queen cross-section.... it looks like the lower pumps are chain pumps (cistern) and elm-trees.   The lower chain pumps have square 'pipe' and the elm-trees have hexagon 'pipes'.  Neither set of pumps has any detail such as dales or pump handles.   The upper pumps are elm-trees... hexagon 'pipes'.

 

The ones I think are elm-trees is due to their length above the deck and the hexagon shape.  Note the number of, let's call them pipes) going up from the  lowest deck and that they stop at two decks pump areas.

 

Those hexagon things on the upper.... I have no idea. 


  • dafi, robin b and druxey like this

Mark

"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me


Current Build:

Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0

Past Builds:
Triton Cross-Section
USS Constellaton (kit bashed to 1854 Sloop of War (Gallery) Build Log
Wasa (Gallery)


Member of the Nautical Research Guild


#24
dafi

dafi
  • Members
  • 1,845 posts
  • LocationLudwigsburg Germany

Hello Mark, thank you, I am also strongly convinced about those three blue ones being elm tree pumps.

 

And I am with you ...

 

 

"Those hexagon things on the upper.... I have no idea. "

 

;-)

 

But exactly above the lower cisterns ...

 

... just handles and coq-wheels missing like the lower deck?

 

XXXDAn

 


  • robin b likes this

To victory and beyond! http://modelshipworl...ory-and-beyond/

 

By the Deep 17 http://modelshipworl...-display/page-4

 

SMS Trinkstein http://modelshipworl...navy/#entry3314

 

See also our german forum for Sailing Ship Modeling and History: http://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com/

 

 

Finest etch parts for HMS Victory 1:100 (Heller Kit) and other useful bits.

http://dafinismus.de/index_en.html

 

Honorary Member of the Tic-Tac-Man-Appreciation-Society


#25
Mark P

Mark P
  • Members
  • 251 posts
  • LocationRutland, England

Hi Dafi;

 

Your picture of the NMM inboard profile,  immediately below the picture from 'Princess Royal',  shows the characteristic which I saw in some of those other draughts I mentioned:  this is that the upper deck pump detail shows a sprocket and much narrower trunking,  much smaller than the cisterns below on the gundeck. 

 

However,  some of your other attached copies of sections from draughts show the same size of cistern on both decks (cue head-scratching) 

 

Concerning the elm-tree pumps,  these delivered water under pressure,  although maybe not particularly high,  and so may have been intended for fire-fighting,  so it would be logical to have them on each deck.

 

I must get to the NMM,  and have a look!

 

Mark P


  • dafi and robin b like this

#26
dafi

dafi
  • Members
  • 1,845 posts
  • LocationLudwigsburg Germany

@ Mark, I have updated the article above.

 

Could those "hexagon things" be the upper part of ZAZ0216?

 

Thanks for the help!

 

 

Just some left-overs from above article ...

 

Queen Charlotte 1790; ZAZ0160

http://collections.r...cts/79951.html 

 

large.jpg

ZAZ0159

http://collections.r...ects/79950.html

large.jpg


Edited by dafi, 04 December 2014 - 11:34 PM.

  • mtaylor and WackoWolf like this

To victory and beyond! http://modelshipworl...ory-and-beyond/

 

By the Deep 17 http://modelshipworl...-display/page-4

 

SMS Trinkstein http://modelshipworl...navy/#entry3314

 

See also our german forum for Sailing Ship Modeling and History: http://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com/

 

 

Finest etch parts for HMS Victory 1:100 (Heller Kit) and other useful bits.

http://dafinismus.de/index_en.html

 

Honorary Member of the Tic-Tac-Man-Appreciation-Society


#27
Mark P

Mark P
  • Members
  • 251 posts
  • LocationRutland, England

Hi Dafi;

 

Thanks for adding the pictures of the draughts I mentioned;  I don't know how to do it yet (must work it out!) I think that you are right about the octagonal bits on the middle deck of the 'Queen' mid-section.  They are not the elm-tree pumps,  as these are quite visible in other parts of the picture,  and completely separate to the bits you have outlined in red,  which,  most importantly,  do not continue below the deck planking,  and have no direct physical connection with the cistern below it.  Again,  and most importantly,  they are situated directly above the pump cistern,  so I am sure that these are what is represented by the four small marks each side of the carlings in the deck plan of 'Duke' (which was launched in 1777) shown in ZAZ2016,  which are directly above the pump cisterns shown in ZAZ2015,  the lower deck of 'Duke'. 

 

I think that as the mid-section of 'Queen' quite clearly shows that the octagonal trunking on the middle deck stops at the deck level,  which matches the details shown on several inboard profile drawings,  these were not intended to raise water,  but were guides for either the pump chains,  or a secondary chain,  rising from the lower deck,  and then turned by the sprocket and shaft quite clearly shown on the same inboard profile drawings.  This sprocket and chain is not shown on the 'Queen' mid-section,  unfortunately,  but I think that the octagonal trunking could not be anything else.

 

(The sprocket and chain is not shown on her lower deck,  either,  so the absence of the mechanism on the middle deck does not show that it did not exist) 

 

The only question left to solve,  I think,  is did the pump chains rise in one loop to the middle deck,  in which case why would crank handles be fitted on the lower deck,  as these cannot have been linked very well to the chain if it just passed through vertically;  or was a secondary chain fitted,  which would give a second set of men on the middle deck the ability to assist with the pumping. 

 

The model of 'Princess Royal' shows cranks on both decks (although there are no pictures of the middle-deck pumps the plan at the beginning of the middle-deck chapter shows them quite clearly) so they were clearly intended for men to turn from there.  I think that the vertical trunking shown on this model,  running up from the lower-deck pumps,  is purely trunking to help guide the chains and prevent accidents to those working the cranks on the lower deck.  As it is quite clear from the previously mentioned inboard profiles and the 'Queen' mid-section that the trunking did not always extend down to the cisterns below,  I think we can be absolutely certain that the mechanism on the middle deck was not for getting water to that deck.

 

Mark P


Edited by Mark P, 05 December 2014 - 07:30 AM.

  • dafi likes this

#28
dafi

dafi
  • Members
  • 1,845 posts
  • LocationLudwigsburg Germany

I think this is what you mean and what also is my suspicion :-)

 

Tandem_.jpg

 

XXXDAn


Edited by dafi, 05 December 2014 - 08:29 AM.

  • robin b and Mark P like this

To victory and beyond! http://modelshipworl...ory-and-beyond/

 

By the Deep 17 http://modelshipworl...-display/page-4

 

SMS Trinkstein http://modelshipworl...navy/#entry3314

 

See also our german forum for Sailing Ship Modeling and History: http://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com/

 

 

Finest etch parts for HMS Victory 1:100 (Heller Kit) and other useful bits.

http://dafinismus.de/index_en.html

 

Honorary Member of the Tic-Tac-Man-Appreciation-Society


#29
druxey

druxey
  • Members
  • 4,767 posts
  • LocationNiagara on the Lake, Ontario, Canada

I agree that the fore octagonal (discontinuous) chambers on the Queen model's middle deck are simply guides for the chains to the wheel and cranks at that level. There is no intention of lifting water to discharge at middle deck level. The long octagonal tubes to the middle deck are the brake pump tubes.

 

The above confirms the thesis that this arrangement of chain pumps increases manpower on them when required. QED!


  • dafi and Mark P like this

#30
Mark P

Mark P
  • Members
  • 251 posts
  • LocationRutland, England

Hi Dafi;

 

I like your picture of the bicycle,  that is exactly the kind of linked mechanism that I visualise. 

 

Thanks for the interesting discussion,  and happy modelling!

 

All the best,

 

Mark P


  • dafi likes this

#31
mtaylor

mtaylor

    Bilge Rat

  • SPECIAL CONTRIBUTOR
  • 14,221 posts
  • LocationMedford, OR

Druxey,

 

This would mean than that the chains along with their cups, would have been exposed?  Or do you think they just didn't include the tubes, etc. for simplicity's sake?   I'm thinking that this type of stuff was the "common knowledge" that was never written down.


  • dafi likes this

Mark

"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me


Current Build:

Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0

Past Builds:
Triton Cross-Section
USS Constellaton (kit bashed to 1854 Sloop of War (Gallery) Build Log
Wasa (Gallery)


Member of the Nautical Research Guild


#32
dafi

dafi
  • Members
  • 1,845 posts
  • LocationLudwigsburg Germany

I think one reason for the bad documentation is that that system was only needed about two dozen times in about 100 years - that is about the number of three deckers in the Royal Navy from 1750 on ...

 

But one could also see a development in the display.

 

It started perhaps as a mere longer chain to the upper deck to allow more people as seen in ZAZ0339 Royal Princess.

 

It became more and more encapsulated for security sake but especially to become less messy as water could drop back to the cistern without landing on the decks.

 

Next steps could have been the second extension.

 

And perhaps the lower cistern to be watertight and a cistern atop for reasons that we do not guess yet?

 

XXXDAn 


Edited by dafi, 05 December 2014 - 07:29 PM.

  • mtaylor likes this

To victory and beyond! http://modelshipworl...ory-and-beyond/

 

By the Deep 17 http://modelshipworl...-display/page-4

 

SMS Trinkstein http://modelshipworl...navy/#entry3314

 

See also our german forum for Sailing Ship Modeling and History: http://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com/

 

 

Finest etch parts for HMS Victory 1:100 (Heller Kit) and other useful bits.

http://dafinismus.de/index_en.html

 

Honorary Member of the Tic-Tac-Man-Appreciation-Society


#33
druxey

druxey
  • Members
  • 4,767 posts
  • LocationNiagara on the Lake, Ontario, Canada

The Queen model implies one long, continuous chain to the middle deck, not a tandem bike-like affair.



#34
Mark P

Mark P
  • Members
  • 251 posts
  • LocationRutland, England

The Queen model certainly implies a connection between the middle deck and the lower deck;  I cannot see anything that would enable us to be more specific than that,  though. 

 

If there is one long chain,  I find it difficult to visualise any reliable way in which the turning effort of the men on the lower deck would be applied to a chain that merely passed by in a vertical line,  and did not pass around any wheel.  The links and washers of the chain pumps were not of a shape which would be easy to grip when just moving in a straight line past the perimeter of a revolving object.

 

This of course is not to say that it was not done,  just that it is impossible,  without further evidence,  to be certain either way.

 

Mark P



#35
jud

jud
  • Members
  • 1,090 posts
  • LocationLexington, Oregon

Were I designing the instillation of the chain pumps, 'not really pumps at all, just water lifting devices using dippers to carry the water'. I would place a pump head or multiple pump heads on each deck that I wanted bilge water to discharge, each separate pump independently running to the bilge with no breaks or openings. On a man of war, seldom would there be a shortage of men to power the pumps and provide enough men for rotation on those pumps. Want water on one deck with a pump head, man that pump, have a lot of water to move, then man all the pump heads regardless of deck and open the scuppers. Not having any knowledge of how it was set up, the object still would be to lift water from one place to another using simple and easily repairable methods. Wonder if any method so far noted are 100% accurate.

jud


Edited by jud, 06 December 2014 - 12:42 AM.

  • druxey likes this

#36
druxey

druxey
  • Members
  • 4,767 posts
  • LocationNiagara on the Lake, Ontario, Canada

Mark: thank you for your latest comments.

 

I don't think the 'tall' pumps were intended to be worked by crews on both levels. The arrangement was merely to place the team on one set of pumps on the lower deck, the other on the middle deck. As the shafts of the brake pumps were almost in alignment, both sets could not be worked simultaneously at the same level.



#37
Mark P

Mark P
  • Members
  • 251 posts
  • LocationRutland, England

Hi Druxey;

 

I have been pondering all the points discussed,  and reading up on chain pumps as much as I could.  Unfortunately none of my reference works give any details,  actual or surmised,  about chain pumps on three-deckers.  I can only believe in 'tall' chain pumps if the motive force is not applied at all on the lower deck,  but solely on the upper.  For this to be so,  there would be no need to fit cranks on the lower deck for the 'tall' pump,  as turning them would do nothing.  Therefore any cranks on the lower deck must have been solely to work the pumps on the lower deck;  and the cranks shown on the model of 'Princess Royal's' lower deck,  passing into the cistern of those pumps which have trunking rising to the middle deck,  were simply passing through the cistern so that men could stand fore and aft and work the pumps on the lower deck. 

 

One proof of this would be that when the pumps were all raised to the middle deck,  there would be no cranks at all on the lower deck.

 

I think that the position of the cranks was far enough apart that both could be worked together if the men stood outside them,  not inside;  but I believe it was probably not common for both to be worked at the same time,  as,  if the ship was heeling over more than a little,  only the lee-side pumps would have been very effective,  as the water in the well would be mostly on the lee side;  although the connection between the cisterns,  or a single wide cistern as often fitted,  would mean that in extreme conditions,  both pumps could be worked,  and discharge from only one side of the vessel;  a very necessary requirement when the ship was heeled over so far that the weather-side pump dale was running uphill. 

 

A point of interest,  but which does not advance the final resolution at all,  is that during the trials of the Coles-Bentinck chain pump in the 1770s,  one of the reasons given by the investigating committee to recommend the adoption of the new pump was that it was easier to work and left the men less fatigued;  so perhaps in the last decades of the 18th century,  there was not a need to be able to add extra hands on a second deck to help work the pumps.

 

A note for modellers intending to show full details below the orlop is that the lower part of the return tube on the new pumps was actually left open on one side for a good part of its height,  to facilitate repair and renewal of the chain links and washers.  Although this part will,  of course,  still be largely hidden within the ship's well.

 

Actually,  a final thought has just struck me,  which is that in the event of one pump (say the aft one) being worked from the lower deck,  and one pump on the middle deck (say the fore one) a line of men could stretch out fore and aft of the cisterns on both decks,  each line working one of the two pumps;  whereas if the two pumps being worked were on the same deck and the same crank,  only half the quantity of men could be employed to work them.  Therefore raising one pump to the middle deck does allow for a greatly increased number of men to be working them;  which may have been the way you had always visualised it.

 

There is then no requirement for a secondary chain;  but why would all the pumps later be raised to the middle deck?

 

Mark P


Edited by Mark P, 09 December 2014 - 06:27 AM.

  • dafi and druxey like this

#38
Tadeusz43

Tadeusz43
  • Members
  • 622 posts
  • LocationGdańsk, Poland

Hi,

Pups on ships I have seen

Pumps on Victory gun deck (fot. 1-5)

Fot. 1 Elm tree pump

Fot. 2 Chain pump and crank

Fot. 3 Chain pump discharge

Fot.4 Two chain and one elm tree pumps

Fot. 5 Pump pipes in ship hold

Fot. 6-9 Pumps on Danish freegate  Jylland

Fot. 10 VOC Batavia elm tree pumps and Admiral

Tadeusz

 

Attached Thumbnails

  • IMG_8732.JPG
  • IMG_8746.JPG
  • IMG_8752.JPG
  • PICT6017.JPG
  • PICT6013.JPG
  • IMG_1923.JPG
  • IMG_1929.JPG
  • IMG_1930.JPG
  • IMG_1932.JPG
  • P3224372.JPG

  • dafi, robin b and Mark P like this

#39
druxey

druxey
  • Members
  • 4,767 posts
  • LocationNiagara on the Lake, Ontario, Canada

Thanks for the photos, Tadeusz. However, Victory has been re-furbished many, many times over the years and very little "original manufacturers' equipment" remains in her. Jylland is of a later time period and country and Batavia is also a modern re-creation. Your Admiral is lovely, though!

 

Mark: I agree with your latest assessment. However, I don't have either a theory or an answer to your final question at the moment.


  • dafi and Mark P like this

#40
Tadeusz43

Tadeusz43
  • Members
  • 622 posts
  • LocationGdańsk, Poland

Hi,

Information about the pumps used on British warships in
during the XVII-XIX century with detailed drawings can be found in the excellent books :

The Arming and Fitting of Englisg Ships of War 1600-1815 by Brian Lavery

and

Englih Man of War 1650-1850 by Petr Goodwin

 

Tadeusz

 

 

 

Attached Thumbnails

  • Pump1.jpg
  • Pump2.jpg
  • Pump3.jpg
  • Pump4.1.jpg
  • Pump4.jpg
  • Pump5.jpg
  • PC090007.JPG
  • Pump6.jpg
  • Pump7.1.jpg
  • Pump7.jpg
  • Pump8.jpg
  • Pump9.jpg
  • Pump10.jpg
  • ElmTreePump.jpg

  • mtaylor, WackoWolf and dafi like this




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Welcome GUEST to the Model Ship World Community.
Please LOGIN or REGISTER to use all of our feautures.