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Chain pumps on first and second rates


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48 replies to this topic

#41
dafi

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Here some contemporary drawings of the "short" pumps

 

(Still have to look for the source)the-improved-chain-pump-1440.jpg

 

 

Parts of Victorys pump (date unknown) REL0450

http://collections.r...ects/63556.html

large.jpg

 

Indus 1839 ZAZ6853

http://collections.r...ects/86644.html

large.jpg

Thetis 1817 REL0407

http://collections.r...ects/63513.html

large.jpg


Edited by dafi, 09 December 2014 - 07:55 PM.

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#42
Mark P

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Hi Tadeusz, 

 

Thanks for posting the pictures.  I too have both these books,  and have read the pump sections again,  and attentively,  in recent days.  Although full of information concerning pumps,  unfortunately they do not have any specific information about their use in 3-deckers.

 

Hi Dafi;

 

The sketch of 'Indus',  although dated 1837,  shows something similar to the inboard profile draughts that were discussed a few posts back.  The red dotted lines show the pumps 'as usually fitted'  which seems to imply that in Indus' case they were not covered over,  but left open for some reason;  which,  judging by the context,  seems to be to save space.  If so,  this must have been important for some reason,  for the amount of space actually gained is not large in the overall volume of the ship.

 

By the way,  the beautifully engraved picture of the chain pump,  with all its parts,  was printed by the Navy Board,  for distribution to ships' carpenters,  to help them with maintaining and repairing the new pumps.  There is certainly a copy in the NMM archives.

 

Mark P


Edited by Mark P, 09 December 2014 - 08:55 PM.

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#43
dafi

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Just to proove how blind we sometimes are: I do believe, most of us saw this drawing of an early 19th century first rate in Arming and Fitting page 174 plenty of times ...

 

Arming-and-Fitting-174-b_3720.jpg

 

I stumbled over it because of RobinĀ“s question about the panelling of the great cabins. And I discovered something on the right edge of it ...

 

Arming-and-Fitting-174-c_3722.jpg

 

... the extended pump, showing dales and handles on both levels. Best picture so far.

 

So the question is, does anybody have more information about this picture including the bow section?

 

Cheers and thanx, Daniel


Edited by dafi, 24 January 2015 - 01:44 PM.

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#44
Walter Biles

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I see that this hasn't been responded to for about 5 months, but after reading this through, If I was on a ship which was collecting water, building up into the hold, and was working the pumps, I would have to wonder how long can she float.  Then I would be thinking, what if the water got above this pump crank level, does this mean there would be no hope to try to prolong her staying up long enough to get her to some land.  It would make good sense to be able to plug off the dale on that level, and retreat to the level above.  If there were more hands that could work the pumps from above, then we might have a better chance of staying off the water a bit longer until we could get farther.  So having the cranks working on both levels would be good.  HOWEVER, in order for the hull not to refill through the return line to the bilge, the return chain would have to bypass the lower station so any water at that level could not flow back down.  My idea would be that there would need to be a second sprocket follower to keep the chain held into the seat of the lower sprocket so the crank sprocket could keep the chain rising.  That way, it could be worked by both upper as well as lower drive cranks as long as possible, and once that deck became flooded, the work would have to be done from above with more frequent reliefs from the crew to give us more time to get near land.  I have noticed on the pictures that there was a groove to hold a plug over the outlet or hold a discharge pipe.  That would make it so the lower pump could be closed up but remain effective from the upper crank station.  That means that if you find any evidence of a separated return pipe at the lower level, then we might still have an answer.    Any other thoughts?


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#45
dafi

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Thank you Walter for your input.

 

If the handles of the crank shaft in the lower gun deck have to be given up, I do strongly believe, that the ship is really lost beyond hope :-)

 

As you state the strongest guess for the upper handle is to have more men handling it. Other reasons are still not yet to be seen, as there seems to be enough fresh water pumps for washing and fire fighting.

 

Just rediscovered this topic as in another place there was another discussion about it and this seemed a good idea to check if any new resources popped up to this topic :-)

 

Cheers, Daniel


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#46
druxey

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I suspect that the limbers were cleared by working the pumps from the lower deck. One would not want to to use more energy in raising the water much higher than water level. The upper set would only be used to raise water from the lower cistern to the upper deck for washing the deck down, etc.


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#47
dafi

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Thank you Druxey, but this is what I still doubt.

 

The chain pumps are for the bilge water, and this - in my humble opinion - is not really suitable for cleaning. On top the chain pumps do not give water with pressure, essential for fire fighting with a hose.

 

Both Fresh water and water with pressure can be given by the elm tree pumps, getting their Water from the outside of the hull.

 

So still it remains a mystery to me, why the Princess Royal and many later drawings show cisterns in the middle deck, while early plans show just a part that could be interpreted as a cogwheel with handle.

 

XXXDAn


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See also our german forum for Sailing Ship Modeling and History: http://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com/

 

 

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#48
druxey

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Dafi: on reflection, you are correct: bilgewater would not be suitable. However, now I recall seeing a cross-sectional drawings of a ship showing inlets and pipes below the waterline for drawing in fresh seawater. These had brake pumps with outlets for each deck, not chain pumps.


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#49
dafi

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There are plenty of these systems for fresh water shown in modern compilations and contemporary sources as seen in                                           #40                          and in NMM.

 

Some come through the bottom, some come through the sides, some straight into the pump, some filling up a cistern and being pumped from there.

 

And if one looks at all the links here in NMM about the heads and other fecal facilities, one understands, that the fresh water is taken from some way underneath the surface ...

 

In my understanding, the chain pumps were only to evacuate the bilge from normal drainage, condensation and normal leaks and of course emergencies.

 

But back to my mystery of the middle deck chain pumps: The "normal" chain pump for two deckers and lesser ships is quite well documented, as there were hundreds of them being in use. First and second rates were only about 30 in the whole time from 1760 to the end of the era. So that could explain the lack of hints about these "phenomena".


Edited by dafi, 13 December 2016 - 05:25 PM.

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To victory and beyond! http://modelshipworl...ory-and-beyond/

 

By the Deep 17 http://modelshipworl...-display/page-4

 

SMS Trinkstein http://modelshipworl...navy/#entry3314

 

See also our german forum for Sailing Ship Modeling and History: http://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com/

 

 

Finest etch parts for HMS Victory 1:100 (Heller Kit) and other useful bits.

http://dafinismus.de/index_en.html

 

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