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Frigate USS United States stern detail

United States

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78 replies to this topic

#21
CharlieZardoz

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The blue one :) you can also request the book of plans from the smithsonian. When im home ill send the link.

#22
Talos

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There are two different books too, The American Sailing Navy and History of American Sailing Ships. The list I described is from my white-cover reprint of History of the American Sailing Navy. The earlier edition is a greenish-blue cover. American Sailing Ships has a dark blue cover, so don't get them mixed up. The only frigate drawing applicable in American Sailing Ships is a reprint of the post-capture USS President draught I mentioned in American Sailing Navy.

 

I'm attaching three spreadsheets I threw together a while back listing all the plans in both of those books, as well as Chapelle's The Search for Speed Under Sail.

 

 

Attached Thumbnails

  • A History of the American Sailing Navy Plan List.jpg
  • The History of American Sailing Ships Plan List.jpg
  • The Search for Speed Under Sail Plans List.jpg


#23
Buick nut

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It was a bit hard to read but thanks I'll see if I can get it

#24
Talos

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If you're referring to the attachments, you can save them and open them up full size. They're quite large (the American Sailing Navy one is 2104 x 3401 pixels)



#25
Buick nut

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Not to change the subject too much but I think weall know how the Constitution got its nickname Old Ironsides but how did the United States get the nickname Old Wagon ? And what were the other nicknames of the other ships and how did they get their nicknames?

Edited by Buick nut, 12 May 2015 - 02:27 AM.


#26
CharlieZardoz

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She was the heaviest of the 6 and sluggish in slow winds.  The President by contrast was the lightest and fastest.


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#27
Buick nut

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OK, Charliei did some searching and i came across something look up USS United States Foundation I'm not sure how much traction this got but the seems 

to me that if he is still around was going to build a full scale replica how far he got is any body's guess for all i know this could be a rouse or the idea died with him if he died but there is mention of a modeler liking  his plans and and he claimed to have the most knowlege of the ship it would be interesting to know what he knows and he says he's been at this since 1978



#28
Buick nut

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Ok Charlie, her's an up date I've been in contact with the gent that is head of the Uss.United States Foundation and he seem pretty willing to share his ideas of what she (The Old Wagon) may have looked like he is planing on building a full scale seaworthy replica if you want you could join his cause and how many people know that it even existed at one time? I think he even was the captain during some recreations on Old Ironsides

#29
CharlieZardoz

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Feel free to send me some links/info.  I'm curious what you found. I'm assuming you mean this dude right? I won't hold my breath on a "life-sized seaworthy replica" since he's been at this since before I was born however a reasonably accurate model will do ^_^

Attached Thumbnails

  • 339797_268855169805502_2076134740_o.jpg

Edited by CharlieZardoz, 29 May 2015 - 07:55 AM.


#30
uss frolick

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Speaking of nicknames, the USS Guerriere, a otherwise very fast frigate, was nevertheless very lumpy, austere and wall-sided in her appearance, and was thus christened "Old Washtub" by her crews.


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#31
Blue Ensign

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Hello Charlie, I recognise my handiwork in the second photo of your initial post.

 

 I’d got as far as hull completion  but I thought something looked odd about those poop railings, ugly and out of proportion, and there was a lack of information about the Poop (roundhouse) construction.

 

I also felt the stern looked somehow out of proportion and I lost interest in the build, particularly when I discovered that the kit was a cobbled together marketing ploy by Revell to screw a few more dollars out of their excellent Constitution kit.

 

I briefly revived interest a few years ago and I started to replace the gundeck cannon with brass versions, and modified split port lids. The railings I started to pare down to a finer scale. I also decided to put a skylight on that vast expanse of Poop deck, as I thought that a Captain that interested in his home comforts would have done so.

 

I intended to rig her with proper shrouds and to this end I fitted wooden deadeyes along the channels.

 

Even with an extensive search of the internet I could not find any clear evidence about the construction, or photos of the stern, and I even read White Jacket by Herman Melville who served on her in 1843, but again there was little to glean to assist a modelmaker, except that there was a round house.

 

So for many years now she has lain quietly festering 'in ordinary' in the loft, destined never to be completed.

 

Here's a couple more shots of the sad old girl.

 

100_2875.JPG

 

 

100_2871.JPG

 

Good luck with your quest...

 

B.E.


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#32
CharlieZardoz

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Ah yes there she is. I think you did a very good job considering the kits weaknesses and thought I'd eventually pick up one of those old revel kits just for research purposes.  The other model I posted from modelmaster seems to have merely used the kit as a reference base so I can't tell if he did any additional on the look of the ship.  I wonder where revel got their info if any research was actually done or if it was an educated guess.  May take many years for me to find out but either way it's fun. :)


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#33
trippwj

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From J. Humphreys concerning some adjustments to timbers.

ICA10.jpg


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Wayne

Neither should a ship rely on one small anchor, nor should life rest on a single hope.
Epictetus


#34
Dave Fellingham

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There's an 1813 painting by Thomas Birch of the United States victory over Macedonian. This painting was in the Kennedy Oval Office.

 

BirchBattleBetweenTheUnitedStatesAndTheMacedonian.jpg

This is the highest pixel count version I could find. Click for larger image.

 

BirchBattleBetweenTheUnitedStatesAndTheMacedonian1.jpg

Detail showing the double red stripes and stern. I know it's hard to tell here but the poop appears

to have been cut down to the spar deck with but one level of gallery windows.

 

I couldn't find much about this painting regarding its value as a source for the appearance of the United States in the War of 1812. Comments please.


Edited by Dave Fellingham, 10 June 2015 - 05:20 PM.

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#35
trippwj

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Here is a better version of the above:

 

Current painting at the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston MA.  http://www.mfa.org/c...acedonian-34275

 

Thomas_Birch_-_Engagement_between_the_'United_States'_and_the_'Macedonian'.jpg

 

Here is one by Thomas Buttersworth Jr. c.1813. In this painting Buttersworth gives us two views of the same engagement, one showing the fight and the other the dismasted and captured MACEDONIAN. (Painting from the Penobscot Marine Museum Collection). 

 

http://penobscotmari...ctober-25-1812/

 

1979.79.07.jpg


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Wayne

Neither should a ship rely on one small anchor, nor should life rest on a single hope.
Epictetus


#36
CharlieZardoz

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That's a nice one and suggests the United States probably didn't have the poop deck at the time of the battle.  At least I see no evidence of it in these paintings with the open aft gunports.


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#37
BareHook

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Contact Ed Zimmerman of the USS UNITED STATES Foundation at ussunitedstates@yahoo.com

 

I last emailed him in 2011

 

He has a developed set of plans he is willing to sell. I had looked into building her as well, but is currently beyond my means

 

Ken

 

PS above pic is of Ed Zimmerman


Edited by BareHook, 10 June 2015 - 06:59 PM.

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#38
CharlieZardoz

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Ah cool yeah I'll get in touch and see what he's got. I don't plan on attempting a build for a few years but the more info I collect now the better the result will be and there's plenty of time for research :)

 

Charlie


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#39
Bill Morrison

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I just came across this thread.  Anyway, Howard Chappele has drawn a starboard profile of the hull overlapped with that of the Constitution and President in his book The History of the American Sailing Navy. This profile is overlapped by those of the Constitution and the President, and it clearly shows the roundhouse and associated railings. Granted, his drawings are conjecture, but they were strongly based on whatever sources were available.  He also noted that the three frigates were built to the same plans and looked very similar to each other but that each Captain was free to make his own alterations.

 

The Revell 1/96 scale kit is correctly based on the Constitution kit except that the Revell kit depicts Constitution as she appeared in 1924, not as she appeared on commissioning or even during the War of 1812. Also the Revell United States shows two distinct levels of windows; the Chappelle drawings show only one level.  I believe that the paintings referred to in this thread show the same.

 

One good place to start is to order the Bluejacket plans for their USS Constitution kit which are based on her appearance during the War of 1812.  I trust their research because they are part of the USS Constitution Museum in Boston, which houses all of the primary documents associated with her.  Then, modify the United States accordingly.  You will probably have a more accurate model (probably!)

 

Bill Morrison


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#40
CharlieZardoz

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Hi! I really need to order the plans collection from Maryland Silver which in them is a collection of profiles taken of United States in 1840-1846 at Gosport Navy yard, just haven't gotten around to spending the cash for it. While I don't think an accurate profile of the stern actually exists I am hopeful the plans offer some sort of clue via a side profile. Regarding the roundhouse It is very likely it was removed prior to the war of 1812 but again ill get more clues after I order those profiles. The Bluejacket Constitution is in my opinion the best kit for depicting her during her 1812 incarnation  :)


Edited by CharlieZardoz, 13 June 2016 - 10:10 PM.

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