Jump to content

Welcome to Model Ship World
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Frigate USS United States stern detail

United States

  • Please log in to reply
78 replies to this topic

#41
Talos

Talos
  • Members
  • 216 posts

Ten to one in 1840s plans, United States has the same six-port stern that Guerriere and Java introduced and Constitution was refitted with after the war (she still has it). Pretty much standard until the Brandywine introduced the round stern.

 

https://upload.wikim...-20_A)_-_42.jpg

http://modelshipworl...-1421827286.gif

 

Though only a sloop, Constellation details the round stern the later frigates carried well, just missing the upper level.

http://images2.mygol...n_7148078_l.jpg

 

The roundhouse was most likely gone by then. Probably long gone. As far as the two-level quarter galleries, Chapelle did postulate them, you can see an extension to the galleries up to the quarterdeck level in his plans. Ironically, the replica HMS President the British built later featured a typical British two-level quarter gallery and stern. http://s017.radikal....8007cc6952c.jpg


  • mtaylor and CharlieZardoz like this

#42
overdale

overdale
  • Members
  • 421 posts
  • LocationCentral Virginia

Charlie,

I have a 1/96 kit of the Revell United States somewhere. Would you like me to post a photo of the kit stern?

 

Dan.


  • mtaylor and CharlieZardoz like this

#43
Force9

Force9
  • Members
  • 308 posts

Relevant USS Constitution museum Log Lines blog:

 

https://ussconstitut...-united-states/


  • mtaylor, uss frolick, Marcus.K. and 1 other like this

#44
CharlieZardoz

CharlieZardoz
  • Members
  • 792 posts
  • LocationQueens New York

Talos, you are likely correct and the "old wagon" quite possibly got streamlined to the typical 3 window stern that Constitution, the Java class and the Potomac as well received for the time. However I can help but postulate that some variation existed would be interesting to find out.

 

Dan, I have the revel model stern as well. It's an interesting design though I have no idea what historical basis the stern has or what revell used for research. I mean it doesn't look like any of the contemporary paintings of her but I imagine that information is lost by now.

 

Force9, what a nice find! Never saw that one before, the first picture yes but not the second one. I mean it's not named but considering both images line up, it could very well be an image of United States during her early days.

 

I can speculate that United states went through 3-4 significant alterations in design starting from the federal frigate article, to the artist conception fighting Macedonian, to something similar to the modern Connie but also possibly elements of the revell stern. I won't lie that revell stern looks like the modern Connie stern only with more windows and the double deck meaning an incarnation of the ship post 1830 however if the quarterdeck was removed prior to 1812 then that isn't possible. Consequently every time I think I can buy those plans from Maryland Silver one of my cats almost dies and needs a vet visit. Theyre 17/18 and keep on ticking all they need is a wad of my money and boom they bounce back to life... my poor bank account. ;)

 

 

Last image is the Potomac from Canney's book (sorry about the quality)

Attached Thumbnails

  • pic_52.jpg
  • sternussus1.jpg
  • united states 001.jpg
  • potomac3 001a - Copy.jpg
  • post-612-0-19386000-13618983231.jpg

Edited by CharlieZardoz, 15 June 2016 - 03:41 PM.

  • mtaylor, uss frolick and Canute like this

#45
Bill Morrison

Bill Morrison
  • Members
  • 74 posts
  • LocationNew London, CT

Those are most interesting engravings! They would lend some credence to an argument that the Revell 1/96 United States is somewhat accurate.  It would be interesting to see someone modify the Revell piece and quarter galleries to match the engravings, perhaps by making a resin mold.  Hmmm . . .

 

Bill


  • CharlieZardoz likes this

#46
CharlieZardoz

CharlieZardoz
  • Members
  • 792 posts
  • LocationQueens New York

I do like the look of the revel stern however that doesn't necessarily mean that it's accurate. Most frigates of the time had 5 stern windows at gun deck level (plus the two quarter gallery windows), large frigates like Connie and President had 6 and the United States according to the images above had 7. If you look at the image I posted it shows Constitution's window evolution over time the most significant change would be downsizing from 6 windows to 5 (assuming these are all accurate and probably done after battle reconstruction), this requires significant changing the structure of the wood beams in order to have an odd number of windows and they probably did so due to streamlining of ship design. Subsequent renovations would have just blotted out the 2 end windows and voila we have the stern we see today. What I am getting at is that while President never existed long enough to have her 6 windows changed, United States would have most likely been modified to the 3 window Java class design as well and with that logic if the revell kit is accurate that means she went from 7 windows at gun deck level to 6 then back to 5/3? That makes no sense and if we take that battle portrait of her with Macedonian shown above as fact then by 1812 she still had 7 windows even after her top deck was removed so wouldn't it be more logical that she kept the odd number of windows since the even number seemed to have been phased out by the end of the war? The revel kit likely just took the existing Connie stern from the kit and added another level and some detailing hence why she has 6 windows at gun deck but I doubt she ever really looked like that. What does interest me though is if United States started out with 7 windows and assuming there was a streamlining of ships to the Java type sterns might United States due to her unique number of windows have maybe gone in a slightly different evolutionary direction and looked kinda different than Constitution by the 1840's. Maybe looked something like this modern painting of her?

Attached Thumbnails

  • connie stern.jpg
  • 6603052_1_l1.jpg

  • mtaylor, Talos and Canute like this

#47
Bill Morrison

Bill Morrison
  • Members
  • 74 posts
  • LocationNew London, CT

I agree.  My point is that one very frequent criticism of the Revell kit of the United States is that the kit depicts double-level quarter galleries while it is assumed that she only carried a single level.  Those who argue this point also believe that the roundhouse is too large, and that the railings lining the roundhouse are outlandishly large.  Your engravings and the painting, coupled with Chappele's book, indicate that the Revell kit might have some features correct.  The kit certainly does not match the engravings or Chappelle, but, the idea within the kit is somewhat accurate.

 

Bill


  • mtaylor, Canute and CharlieZardoz like this

#48
CharlieZardoz

CharlieZardoz
  • Members
  • 792 posts
  • LocationQueens New York

I mean the revel Constitution did a pretty good representation of the stern from the Peabody model so who knows maybe someone did some research and what they came up with was off some info I haven't found yet. Main thing is that these ships changed all the time so we will never know all the subtleties of these changes but we can extrapolate some of the evolution based on conjecture and available info. :)


  • mtaylor and Canute like this

#49
Talos

Talos
  • Members
  • 216 posts

I mean the revel Constitution did a pretty good representation of the stern from the Peabody model so who knows maybe someone did some research and what they came up with was off some info I haven't found yet. Main thing is that these ships changed all the time so we will never know all the subtleties of these changes but we can extrapolate some of the evolution based on conjecture and available info. :)

 

 

United States’ stern was probably refitted identically to the other frigates in post-war refits. It’s an extensive one with the entire stern structure replaced. Earlier American frigates had excessive stern overhang, which could lead to pounding by the water in certain conditions. HMS Chesapeake’s commander once noted it was bad in the ship’s log.

 

The Java design during the war improved on that with a nearly vertical snub tail. Along with that there were three notable improvements to the tail design. First is the obvious increase in stern firepower, from four ports to six. The second is the vertical nature of the stern. This makes it much easier to shoot a cannon out of rather than the sloping ones previous. Finally, the whole structure is a heavier design as seen in the photograph of Constitution undergoing refit, compared to standard frigate designs. I think it’s pretty likely that the stern chases Constitution and her sisters engaged in, which included Constitution’s own stern chasers damaging herself, were a big influence in this new stern shape.

 

The Revell stern is almost certainly just a modified Constitution, I wouldn’t put a lot of stock in it being close to the historical design, nor a lot of the period paintings and etchings by someone who wasn’t there or hasn’t seen the ship in person. A lot of the reconstructions with Chapelle, the model, etc, all tie in together and are based off one another. If you look closely in that last painting, the stern seems to rise at the same angle as the Java’s stern.

 

I’m attaching a quick chart I threw together of some of the basic frigate sterns in the USN. You can compare the overhang and slope of the sterns in the older ships to the snub-nosed Java stern and interiors. Note also the reconstructed poop deck, rail, and hard-to-see upper galleries Chapelle did on the original Constitution design.  Note also that President is shown with the diagonal riders, but there’s no evidence they were there when the ship was taken, if she ever actually had them (President was the lightest and fastest of the three).

Attached Thumbnails

  • Frigate Sterns.jpg

  • mtaylor, Canute, CharlieZardoz and 1 other like this

#50
Bill Morrison

Bill Morrison
  • Members
  • 74 posts
  • LocationNew London, CT

Talos,

 

Might I ask about the reference from which you got those drawings?  The differences in the sterns between the earlier American ships and those of the British are quite striking.  Thank you for posting them!

 

Bill


  • mtaylor and Canute like this

#51
Talos

Talos
  • Members
  • 216 posts

Those are all Howard Chapelle's redrawings of original plans from the US and Royal Navy (President, Chesapeake, and Essex) available from the National Archives and in his book The History of the American Sailing Navy.


  • mtaylor, Canute and CharlieZardoz like this

#52
CharlieZardoz

CharlieZardoz
  • Members
  • 792 posts
  • LocationQueens New York

Bill you may be mistaking that Guerriere for the british ship. That is the American built ship the Guerriere/Java class built around 1815 and was the next evolutionary step in frigate building until the Potomac/Brandywine class of the 1820's. One of the evolutionary trends was the flattening of the stern design and with the images above you can see how different the Java class was to those preceding it. All ships afterwards would get this stern redesign which is why Constitution's is the way it is now and most likely United States received the same stern alteration as it was the standard design until the Brandywine which started the round stern which the modern day Constellation features. Thanks Talos this is a great image for comparison I wouldn't have realized without them all lined up like this and the Potomac image I posted above also shows this flattened stern as well. What this shows me is that when I get the Gosport profiles of United States from Maryland Silver they should show the flattened stern and even without a stern profile it should show the alteration was done. What I am curious about is if other surviving 1812 frigates also had their sterns changed (meaning old Constellation, Congress am I missing any?)


Edited by CharlieZardoz, 17 June 2016 - 07:17 PM.

  • mtaylor and Canute like this

#53
Talos

Talos
  • Members
  • 216 posts

It's possible they did later, sure, but it really depends on if they got a major enough refit during those years to put them on. I know Constellation did plenty of cruising, but Congress did spend most of that time as a recieving ship.

 

I'll do a comparison of the round sterns too, as most of the Brandywine are featured (except for St Lawrence, which he modified from the Brandywine draught based on a description). I'll also throw in the two Macedonians. Eventually I want to draw my own version of that Potomac draught posted earlier, splicing the Guerriere stern on the Brandywine.

 

HMS Guerriere's an interesting one, being a French ship originally until capture by the British, then captured by the Americans. Too damaged from that and she sank soon after. Only a couple of our captures really survived, most were either lost soon after (Epervier, Insurgent) or recaptured almost immediately (Peacock, Levant). The only real exceptions are Macedonian and Cyane. Speaking of Cyane, Chapelle got her profile wrong. He actually did a profile of the old Bittern-class Cyane from the 1790s, not the correct bigger Banterer-class of the 1800s. RMG probably sent him the wrong plans back in the day.


  • mtaylor and CharlieZardoz like this

#54
CharlieZardoz

CharlieZardoz
  • Members
  • 792 posts
  • LocationQueens New York

Fascinating and looking forward to the reconstructions. Be mindful that Potomac's bow was also different than Brandywine's since she received a straightened sheer that Brandywine did not get so might need to splice the St Lawrence's bow and add the Guerriere's stern to get Potomac. Seems Columbia would have gotten the Brandywine's stern and St Lawrence's bow while Raritan and Cumberland had that large bow structure. St Lawrence seemed like she was designed more in line with the first 3 river frigates but sat on the stocks and completed later. I'd love to see all 9 lined up.

 

Regarding Constellation I'd wager she did get some sort of upgrade while Congress probably never did but it depends on when the upgrades were implemented since Congress sort of ended her career in the early 1820's I'd say no. And is there an actual plan somewhere for HMS Guerriere? I've never seen one.


  • mtaylor and Canute like this

#55
Talos

Talos
  • Members
  • 216 posts

Yeah, that kind of thing has been something I've kept in mind. I would have thought Columbia would be identical to her shipmates Java and Gue....oh, you meant the Brandywine-class one, not the Java-class. ;)  I'll see what I can do there. I already mean to modify the Santee profile to match the description of Sabine as well.

 

As far as Congress, I thought it was around 1819 she became a recieving ship. With HMS Guerriere there probably are French plans for her or a sister ship. She's a fairly normal Forfait design as I recall. I'll check my French frigates book later. Her lines were also taken off by the British, I'm sure.


  • mtaylor, Canute and CharlieZardoz like this

#56
CharlieZardoz

CharlieZardoz
  • Members
  • 792 posts
  • LocationQueens New York

Lol yes the -er slightly less useless Columbia (at least she got a launching) I have this pic of her from Canney's book. So looks like the Potomac except with the round stern. And yes you are probably right about Congress I was guestimating  :)

Attached Thumbnails

  • columbia 001.jpg

Edited by CharlieZardoz, 17 June 2016 - 08:50 PM.

  • mtaylor and Canute like this

#57
trippwj

trippwj

    Scullery Maid

  • Members
  • 3,490 posts
  • LocationEastport, Maine, USA

One thing to keep in mind when considering the United States is that while each constructor/builder took certain liberties with the standard design for the 44 gun ships, this one was built by Humphreys, and he was very protective of his design.  I suspect that the as-built structure will be extremely close to the known design criteria (a great deal of the correspondence concerning the design and construction is available at the Papers of the War Department project website - my better half has been working on transcribing these from the online images, but we have a long way to go still).

 

Attached is an excerpt from one of the documents.

 

Attached File  1795-11-16 WD to Constr CIRCULAR_ZXA06.138-143.pdf   497.49KB   34 downloads


  • mtaylor, Canute and CharlieZardoz like this

Wayne

Neither should a ship rely on one small anchor, nor should life rest on a single hope.
Epictetus


#58
CharlieZardoz

CharlieZardoz
  • Members
  • 792 posts
  • LocationQueens New York

Good point Wayne I'm sure United States and Constitution were practically the same hull shape and President was so minor a model likely wouldn't show the difference. The only real differences would be there ornamentation which over time became more streamlined though I'd still like to find some more specifics if they are out there. I mean all billetheads were slightly different no? :P


  • mtaylor likes this

#59
Bill Morrison

Bill Morrison
  • Members
  • 74 posts
  • LocationNew London, CT

Yes, I had a senior moment when I saw the illustration of the Guerriere.   I also had not seen that drawing in Chappelle.  I will have to look more closely.  Thanks for pointing it out.  One thing that I would be interested in finding out concerns the original figureheads.  Constitution was built with one of Hercules brandishing a club (I believe!), and lost hers at Tripoli, and was given the billet head configuration before she was fitted for the Andrew Jackson one.  United States was built with a different figurehead, I believe of the Goddess Liberty brandishing a spear, but I am not sure about what happened to that.  I'm not sure about President, Congress, Constellation, or Chesapeake.  It would be good to find some sort of detailed illustration.

 

Bill


Edited by Bill Morrison, 17 June 2016 - 10:49 PM.

  • mtaylor, Canute and CharlieZardoz like this

#60
uss frolick

uss frolick
  • Members
  • 991 posts

I question the accuracy of that Columbia print, as it shows 17 ports a side on the main deck, two more than she actually had. But if it is accurate, then the stretched sisters Santee and Sabine had 17 aside, so it could actually represent one of them. And even if the forward-most port in the print was only the bridle port, then it could be the Hudson or the Independence, as they had 16 ports aside. It's probably just the engraver's whimsey. I think it is the only depiction of the Frigate Columbia, but if memory still serves, there is also a contemporary print of the Columbia and the John Adams bombarding the piratical towns of Quala Battoo and Muckie, on the coast of Sumatra, circa 1837. (Muslim Sumatran pirates, actually. How some things never change.)

 

Alas, there are no draughts of HMS Guerriere. She was possibly a one-off design by an engineer named Lafosse. But Author Rif Winfield speculates that she was a stretched L'Immortalite' Class 24-pounder frigate, like the La Furieuse was.


  • mtaylor, Canute and CharlieZardoz like this




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Welcome GUEST to the Model Ship World Community.
Please LOGIN or REGISTER to use all of our feautures.