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Crown Timberyard, evaluation of some wood sheets


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I just received a number of sheets of wood from Jason at Crown Timberyard and decided to make some measurements of the thicknesses. 

The sheets were clearly marked in plastic packages and looked very smooth and neat. They were two inches wide except for one four inch wide piece of holly that he had included for my evaluation. The latter had streaks of grey in various locations but might be interesting when used for deck planking. It also was very smooth.
The Swiss pear sheets are excellent with very uniform grain distribution. A couple of the boxwood sheets, however, had some distinct grain stripes but certainly not obtrusive. All in all I am very pleased with the appearance. 

 

I took three samples to measure (I will do the same with the others later). One is a sheet of Swiss pear at a nominal 1/8 inch thickness. The other two are Castello boxwood at 1/4 and 1/32 inch nominal thickness. Hence it covers the range of sheet thicknesses I ordered. I probably should have included the 1/16 inch thick holly, but that comes later.

The results are shown below.

post-246-0-87051500-1429229706_thumb.jpg

 

The 1/32 inch piece is a bit on the 'heavy' side, but overall the thickness measurements are within 

a nice tolerance.

Jay

 

Current build Cross Section USS Constitution  http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/10120-cross-section-forward-area-of-the-uss-constitution/

Finished USS Constitution:  http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/103-uss-constitution-by-modeler12/

 

'A picture is worth a  . . . . .'      More is better . . . .

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Ahoy Mates

Thats getting to a tolerance that is only seen in ground steel stock.As far as ship model building what do you think of the tolerances shown above?

 

As a tool and die maker it's nice to see this kind of consistancy in the wood sizes. I always use my dial calipers in my building of models. Using them to measure to make sure that the frames-bulkheads are on center to the keel and level to the deck.

 

I use them since it is just how I worked on die's and tooling. 

 

What is the expectations of the ship modelers here on this site when it comes to wood sizes? Please let me know just how close you want the dimentional wood,and do you carry that into your building practices in wooden ship model building?

 

Keith

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If I am correct, (and I am no expert by any means) the maximum deviation is 4 thousands of an inch in any of the three examples. (Taking the maximum and minimum measures) I don't think that's something that can be perceived by the naked eye or that will affect in any serious way the building of a ship model. I think this is far beyond normal expectations.

Edited by Ulises Victoria

There aren't but two options: do it FAST, or do it RIGHT.

 

Current Project Build Log: Soleil Royal in 1/72. Kit by Artesania Latina.

Last finished projectsRoyal Ship Vasa 1628; French Vessel Royal Louis 1780. 1/90 Scale by Mamoli. 120 Cannons

 

Future projects already in my stash: Panart: San Felipe 1/75; OcCre: Santísima Trinidad 1/90;

Wish List: 1/64 Amati Victory, HMS Enterprise in 1/48 by CAF models.

 

So much to build, so little time!

 

 

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Keith, I might add here that the sheets appear to be sanded to the final thickness. I don't know for sure, but it appears that the sheets were hand-fed through the sander, because when I hold the sheets at an angle to some bright light, I can see areas that are more shiny than others. In other words, I can see highlights, but cannot feel or measure any changes in thickness. I bet a light hand sanding will take care of that, should it be a problem.

What I find also interesting is that the sheets don't vary by more than a couple thousands across the width. Compare 1 and 8 or 2 and 7, etc. The sander must be aligned very well.

 

The upshot is that I am very please with what I ordered and I will go to Jason again when I need to.

Jay

 

Current build Cross Section USS Constitution  http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/10120-cross-section-forward-area-of-the-uss-constitution/

Finished USS Constitution:  http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/103-uss-constitution-by-modeler12/

 

'A picture is worth a  . . . . .'      More is better . . . .

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Perhaps this analysis is overkill. Wood expands and contracts with humidity levels. So, were you to 'mike' the samples on another day, your readings will probably differ. You can't compare wood to, say, metal.

Be sure to sign up for an epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series  http://trafalgar.tv

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The product  reports out as being both precise and accurate.  If you redo the measurement in the Summer in a high humidity environment, it is possible the the values would be higher.   The point being that with wood, a bit of latitude is appropriate with accuracy.  This product is  excellent.

NRG member 45 years

 

Current:  

HMS Centurion 1732 - 60-gun 4th rate - Navall Timber framing

HMS Beagle 1831 refiit  10-gun brig with a small mizzen - Navall (ish) Timber framing

The U.S. Ex. Ex. 1838-1842
Flying Fish 1838  pilot schooner -  framed - ready for stern timbers
Porpose II  1836  brigantine/brig - framed - ready for hawse and stern timbers
Vincennes  1825  Sloop-of-War  -  timbers assembled, need shaping
Peacock  1828  Sloop-of -War  -  timbers ready for assembly
Sea Gull  1838  pilot schooner -  timbers ready for assembly
Relief  1835  ship - timbers ready for assembly

Other

Portsmouth  1843  Sloop-of-War  -  timbers ready for assembly
Le Commerce de Marseilles  1788   118 cannons - framed

La Renommee 1744 Frigate - framed - ready for hawse and stern timbers

 

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Perhaps this analysis is overkill. Wood expands and contracts with humidity levels. So, were you to 'mike' the samples on another day, your readings will probably differ. You can't compare wood to, say, metal.

My analysis is not overkill and perhaps you missed the point. Irregardless of what might happen with humidity and temperature changes, the quality of the machining and variations in thickness would be the same for the same piece. In fact, I would seriously doubt that changes in thickness due to humidity changes from day to day could be measured with the tools I have. 

 

What I tried to do is to evaluate the wood I bought from a new supplier and thickness as well as appearance were my criteria.

Jay

 

Current build Cross Section USS Constitution  http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/10120-cross-section-forward-area-of-the-uss-constitution/

Finished USS Constitution:  http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/103-uss-constitution-by-modeler12/

 

'A picture is worth a  . . . . .'      More is better . . . .

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I believe those tolerances and quality are better than any other supplier for pear and box.....so it is lucky for us that he is around.  If you were to try that exercise with any other supplier of boxwood.  Let me know what the measurements are.    That is fantastic.   

 

I agree with Druxey however in that it is over analysis.   I havent heard of anyone doing that with any other wood supplier.   So in fairness and a way to show just how incredible Crown is.  I would love to see what the results would be for other vendors.  You would be an even bigger fan of his milling if you did.

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I have three orders from Jason  Crown Timberyard and they are all of the same quality-Excellent. In my experenece as a tool and diemaker who had to deal with close tolerance work-+- .0002- that's 2 tenth's of one thousanth of an inch,this wood produced to these numbers is way beyond the building level of 99 percent of the model builders.

 

To be completly honest-and no offence to those out there, but-I do not think that the 99% would know a .001 difference in wood thickness in building even if it bit them in their ***.

There's not a lot of toolmakers who even can work in the +-.001 tolerence range.

 

With model building it's more of the visual area that shows up differences,not the dimentions of the wood used. And then it's the feel of the finger tip over seams,which can detect differences in hight of only .0005 to .001 of planks next to each other. But that is out of the visual range unless you look at it with a light sourse at an angle to the surface that you are checking out.

That's what you see in car body shop's and car makers plants where they are inspecting the body panels and paint for uneven surfaces and other defects.

 

As Chuck said it's great to have a Vendor where you can get wood to this level of milling. It's easier to build with consistant wood no mater what your building level is. The real test is when you have to work with wood that is all over the map in sizes,even tho it's sold as the same standard size. That is when the boys are seperated from the men in building. Just as planking is the great leveler in skill level in wooden ship model building.

I look at Chuck' planking and building and just hope that I can sometime in the future just get near his level of building.

 

 

Keith

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If anyone told me that the wood they received from a supplier was determined to be 'great' or 'looks beautiful' and nothing more, I would call that 'under analysis'. To make some measurements of materials received should be considered normal in any other trade. I did not (and will not in these cases) specify tolerances, but I will rely on vendors who can provide me with good quality stuff. 

 

As mentioned above, I did take some measurements of the holly. They are listed below for a random selected piece out of four. I had ordered the material to be about 200 square inches at 1/16 inch thick but of random lengths and widths. I received more than that and the widths were generally a bit over three inches and about 24 inches long. One exception was the four inch wide piece that is shown below. It had streaks of grey which might be fine for my intended use (deck planking). There was one three inch wide piece that had some dark streaks along one edge. Crown elected to simply send this to me instead of trimming it. 

post-246-0-60917900-1429319982_thumb.jpg

I did not use micrometer with a small footprint. You can see how I measured the thickness below.

post-246-0-72033000-1429320435.jpg  post-246-0-16835900-1429320445.jpg  post-246-0-41902600-1429320455.jpg

 

 

 

Jay

 

Current build Cross Section USS Constitution  http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/10120-cross-section-forward-area-of-the-uss-constitution/

Finished USS Constitution:  http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/103-uss-constitution-by-modeler12/

 

'A picture is worth a  . . . . .'      More is better . . . .

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I quite agree with Chuck.  No one currently holds those kinds of tolerances except Jason.   I didn't check my wood order from Jeff, I just spot checked a few pieces out of the pile I got and proceeded to cut it up for frame blanks.  I do have some old Midwest wood (cherry and I think "red mahogany") that was consistent but not like that. 

 

There's been some other suppliers I've used which to honest, were inconsistent.  Some the wood was excellent in finish and dimensions, other pieces in tsame shipment were crap... off as much a 1/16" from one end to the other. 

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD           Triton Cross-Section   

 NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit                                                                            HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

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I dont own a drum sander.  Many folks dont.   I dont have a bandsaw either.   Many folks dont.   I also find my most precious item these days is time.   Like with other items and kit products available,  the last thing I want to do is buy something only to have to fix it so it meets my standards.   As a guy who would rather spend his limited time on the fun stuff,  I am just happy there is one wood supplier I can count on that supplies me with a product I dont have spend hours making usable.  OR spend extra money buying the tools to do so.  

 

I see nothing wrong with being extra happy about one thing that is actually supplied as advertised. So few things are these days.  There arent many places like this and I am very fortunate to have the resource.  Literally....Syren Ship Model Company would be out of business if I had to spend the time needed to re-thickness the amount of wood I use.   

 

I am sure everyone can mill their own if they wanted to and if they had the tools.   I just dont want to.   Thank you Jason for making my life a whole lot easier.   And the same goes for countless other model builders.   :wub:   I ve got nothing but love for ya baby!!!  It made the difference between me being in business and out of business. 

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I agree with Druxey however in that it is over analysis.   I havent heard of anyone doing that with any other wood supplier.   So in fairness and a way to show just how incredible Crown is.  I would love to see what the results would be for other vendors.  You would be an even bigger fan of his milling if you did.

OK Chuck, you asked for it.

Here are some results of walnut strips I bought a long time ago from Hobby Mill. Again I selected the two pieces at random. It was obvious that they were sanded to the final thickness.

post-246-0-15056100-1429378676_thumb.jpg

I never bought lumber from anyone else, so I guess I got spoiled by buying from two good places. When I cut my own (without sanding) I range plus and minus .010 inches. Sanding brings it closer but my sander is crude and I cannot consistently get to POM .005 inches.

Jay

 

Current build Cross Section USS Constitution  http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/10120-cross-section-forward-area-of-the-uss-constitution/

Finished USS Constitution:  http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/103-uss-constitution-by-modeler12/

 

'A picture is worth a  . . . . .'      More is better . . . .

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I wouldnt have expected anything different....from Hobbymill.   

 

Its lovely to have as good a resource available now that he is no longer around.  :)

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 As a guy who would rather spend his limited time on the fun stuff,  I am just happy there is one wood supplier I can count on that supplies me with a product I dont have spend hours making usable.  OR spend extra money buying the tools to do so.  

I agree with Chuck about the time thing and spending hours milling planking. I do own a band saw, Byrnes Table Saw, and Byrnes Thickness Sander, and I'll be using them on my first build, just for all of the frame-work. That will be poplar, instead of basswood. Every bit of the planking, coamings, and railings material, will come from Jason at Crown, because once I start building, I'm not going to stop to mill planks. My time is money, and it's cheaper to buy the pre-milled sheets for planks, than to re-saw them myself.

Edited by GLakie

GEORGE

 

MgrHa7Z.gif

 

Don't be bound by the limits of what you already know, be unlimited by what you are willing to learn.

 

Member of the Nautical Research Guild

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Ahoy Mates

 

Just recieved a shipment  from Jason at Crown Timberyard today of Holly for the decks on my Cheerful amd mediator builds. This is the first Holly that Ihave ever seen,and I like the light color with the grey pattern grain thru the wood. Fast shipment across the country,just 4 days total from New Jersey to Oregon.

 

The only bad thing about this Holly is that it will be some time before I will be able to use it on my two builds.If someeone thinks that being retiered is a time with lots of spare time,they are wrong.

 

Keith

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Dave,

We don't pound our own pigments and mix the paint from raw ingredients. We don't mine the minerals and smelt our brass.  We've seen this argument before.... where does scratch building start?  With cutting down the tree?  There are many (most?) who don't have the tools or the skills for getting the wood to where they want it.  Many are also still working, some with pretty long hours.  They're raising kids.  Time is a premium. 

 

There are those that buy cannons and fittings such as eyebolts and blocks... are they less of a scratch builder because they don't have room or money for a lathe or the skills?

 

Is the "true" scratch builder dead?   If you mean cutting the tree, seasoning the wood, and milling... they are a dying breed.

If you mean taking materials that they can cut, sand, shape and create.. or that they can source.... no they are not.

 

So exactly what are you saying?  That the customer base is changing? 

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD           Triton Cross-Section   

 NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit                                                                            HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

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We're talking about two different mediums here. Doing scratch-building and doing kit building. I wasn't real clear in my last post about the planking. What I'll be buying from Jason is the sheet stock. I'll still have to cut and fit the planks. I'm working with a kit and replacing all of the wood in it except the false keel and bulkheads, and I might replace those. I'm going to use Jason's Swiss Pear for the coamings and rails in sheets. Never done a scratch build yet, but this Constitution Kit is going to get my feet wet enough, hopefully, to make the swing over to the "Dark Side". I've worked with wood all my life and I know what is meant by "working with my hands". I could cut and mill all the wood myself, as can most of the other guys here, but I'll do it this way, not because I have to, but because I want to. And the way I've decided to do it is to send some of my business Jason's way because he offers a great product. 

 

Whew! 

Cheers

GEORGE

 

MgrHa7Z.gif

 

Don't be bound by the limits of what you already know, be unlimited by what you are willing to learn.

 

Member of the Nautical Research Guild

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I just received a number of sheets of wood from Jason at Crown Timberyard and decided to make some measurements of the thicknesses. 

This is turning into an interesting discussion, but I still maintain that evaluating a product received from a vendor needs some kind of measurement of quality. That is what I tried to do.

 

Whether or not it is 'over analysis' or 'time consuming' or 'truly scratch building', is irrelevant. I think most of us will agree that a vendor who can offer and produces a product that we want and produces that in good quality is the one we go back to.

Edited by Modeler12

Jay

 

Current build Cross Section USS Constitution  http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/10120-cross-section-forward-area-of-the-uss-constitution/

Finished USS Constitution:  http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/103-uss-constitution-by-modeler12/

 

'A picture is worth a  . . . . .'      More is better . . . .

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I agree Jay! Somehow this topic drifted off-subject. Crown's the go-to place for precision cut lumber, and sooner or later, I'll be milling my own completely, while still maintaining Jason as a source for rough-cut lumber.  

GEORGE

 

MgrHa7Z.gif

 

Don't be bound by the limits of what you already know, be unlimited by what you are willing to learn.

 

Member of the Nautical Research Guild

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Harvesting your own wood, or starting with lumberyard stock is not a requirement for scratch building.  It is more something like a fetish for those of us who want to "live off the grid"  for our wood sources.

 

As far as scratch building is concerned, I consider that it means starting with just plans and assembling a vessel.  It is freedom from the limitations from the offerings of kit manufacturers.

 

Using pre-made hardware such as cannon or eye bolts, does not alter that, although it may run afoul of some contest rules if competition is something that you enjoy. I think that the metal parts are more of a Model Engineering skill.

Prototype ship builders did not hesitate using outside manufacturers to provide wheels, winches, or anything else they could get as soon as the Industrial Age began.  There is no reason a modeler should not do the same if the part matches and is the correct scale - if that is how they wish it.

 

Not relevant to anything:

I would not build a scratch model at the same scale of any vessel available as a kit.

I would never use POB as a method to scratch build.

NRG member 45 years

 

Current:  

HMS Centurion 1732 - 60-gun 4th rate - Navall Timber framing

HMS Beagle 1831 refiit  10-gun brig with a small mizzen - Navall (ish) Timber framing

The U.S. Ex. Ex. 1838-1842
Flying Fish 1838  pilot schooner -  framed - ready for stern timbers
Porpose II  1836  brigantine/brig - framed - ready for hawse and stern timbers
Vincennes  1825  Sloop-of-War  -  timbers assembled, need shaping
Peacock  1828  Sloop-of -War  -  timbers ready for assembly
Sea Gull  1838  pilot schooner -  timbers ready for assembly
Relief  1835  ship - timbers ready for assembly

Other

Portsmouth  1843  Sloop-of-War  -  timbers ready for assembly
Le Commerce de Marseilles  1788   118 cannons - framed

La Renommee 1744 Frigate - framed - ready for hawse and stern timbers

 

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I do not think that measuring the thickness is a good quality insurance test. Parallelism of the 2 main sides is more relevant.

 

The usual procedure to cut planks from a 2 X 10 is to use the jointer to have 1 side straight.

The table saw gives  2 sides perpendicular. And finally with the planer, you have the remaining 2 opposites sides parallels.

 

For the last operation, side parallelism, planer is preferable, even if it is possible  to replace the planer by the table saw.

 

Which is the most difficult tool to use between these 3? The table saw.

The saw cut parallel  with the table saw parallel but depending how we push the plank, more or less accurate results are produced.

 

With the planer, more consistent results are achieve, you enter the plank and the machine does the rest. With this tool, you can reach standard thickness for wood. You cannot reach ‘’standard metal thickness’’ to ,001’’. Drum sander is more precise in the thickness simply because of the screw lenght. ,005’’ result are easily obtainable but the screw is not calibrated to reach ,001’’.

 

With the drum sander, you can reach consistent thickness, because again, you enter the wood and the machine does the rest.

 

The planer and the drum sander do the same operation and they do it well : they give a parallel side. If I measure the thickness at different lenght, constant results will show.

 

In french, we have a proverb which goes like this : a chain cannot be stronger than the weakest link.  In these operations, which one is? This is my hand which push the plank on the table saw.

 

The drum sander is use in last to make sure both sides are parallel.

What do I need to measure to make sure?  Thickness on both sides at both ends, similar results  are needed.

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I do not think that measuring the thickness is a good quality insurance test. Parallelism of the 2 main sides is more relevant.

This may be your opinion when it comes to a 2x10, but when I pick up a piece that is 1/32 inch thick it flexes enough so the two 'main sides' will bend slightly and then what? It still is a 'flat' piece when I put it down on my workbench or saw table.

 

All pieces I received from Crown had one or both sides machined true, so all I need to do is cut these sheets to the width or size I need using my table saw, jig saw or hand tools. But now I am confident that at least the thickness is what I want.

 

Furthermore, the measurements I presented had thickness values on both sides of the sheet. Compare #1 and 8 as well as 4 and 6 for example.

How do you measure parallelism?

Edited by Modeler12

Jay

 

Current build Cross Section USS Constitution  http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/10120-cross-section-forward-area-of-the-uss-constitution/

Finished USS Constitution:  http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/103-uss-constitution-by-modeler12/

 

'A picture is worth a  . . . . .'      More is better . . . .

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Come on,why should you re-invent the wheel. As Chuck said so well,I do not enjoy having to sand to thickness strips or sheets to just start building. In this day and age,why go backwards in model building?

 

This was to celibrate the ability of our latest vendor's ability to supply us with product that is as good as it gets and at a price and time frame that until now was not to be had. 

It was not to revel in the sanding dust of having to rework what you have just bought to make it useable.

 

I hope that we do not revert to being the old man who yells at kidds getting near his perfect lawn or for here-looking down on those who do not become lumberjacks and lumbermills doing the who process of being a model ship building lumber yard.

 

As a tool and diemaker I always used great suppliers for punches,screws,dowels,die sets,springs and all the other items that go into a die.

I could have made all of the above from stock material,and have done so when I was in a time pinch,but it would have just been a waste of time and my skills  doing the things that could be done by others who would do it better and cheaper than me.

 

I wanted to use my time for what I did best in making tooling and die's. Most of us have limited time for our hobby,and I for one do not want to spend it just getting the raw material ready to start building. 

 

It is the same in any hobby that has a good supply industry behind it. Our's is still not to the level as other areas of model making with suppliers in resin cast detail parts and PE detail parts.

Chuck and Rick are now sources of laser cut parts and short kits,along with brass cannon barrels along with others expanding their product lines.

 

If you want to go back 90 years and do it all by yourself-good for you and have a lot of time to do it.

But do not look down on those who chose to enjoy and support those who make and sell the items that now make building a more enjoyable task to those who do not "scratch build" to the extreme definition you use.

 

Thia is my last posting on this subject. Time to move on,just like what I said above to what I do best-BUILDING MODELS.

Keith

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I think its irrelevant that a piece of wood is milled to such close tolerances..... It's awesome that it is but really, when you start cutting that billet into planks or start tapering and beveling pre milled planks and then sand them after installation how close do you think your tolerances are then? Even on Chucks Cheerful build video he shows just using a blade and tapering and He even stated in the log that he sands as much as 1/16" of his planking so what real benefit is .002 or three thou doing you? I think it probably makes you feel better about paying upwards of $150 per board foot for wood (depending on type and size of billet) than have any real impact on the outcome of your model. Thats the biggest reason I invested in the tools to mill my own..... and I get to try out lots of different woods..... A lot cheaper.....

Edited by ASAT
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If you've shopped around for boxwood, you know it's not cheap, provided you can find it at all. Big box stores don't carry it. I don't know----for me it's more to do with keeping a valuable resource to exotic hardwood available, by making a purchase of the more desirable wood once in a while, which in turn will help keep them in business. Anyway, this topic has gone off subject again and is going nowhere, so I guess I'll just leave it to the professionals.

 

Cheers

GEORGE

 

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Don't be bound by the limits of what you already know, be unlimited by what you are willing to learn.

 

Member of the Nautical Research Guild

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