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Sloop vs Cutter - moved by moderator


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21 replies to this topic

#1
Bomba Bear

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Hi all,

 

I have a Mamoli kit of the Black Prince of which I have been agonizing over for about a year. I love to build models of thing with a little history and this is where I get my self in to trouble. The model maker represents the ship as being a sloop of the Revelutionary war period. the actual build how ever is more  of a Bermuda Sloop style with shallow draft and smooth narrow lines and the masts heavily rake aft.

 

In my research I found a site which contains many of the written correspondances of one of her owners one Bejamin Franklin. The Black Prince's first Captian was an Irishman by the last man of Duncan who when returning to Port would send letters to Mr Franklin, giving a report of the Black Prince's actvities. On serveral ocassions he refered to the Black Prince as a wonderful cutter. 

 

Sorry about being long winded, but I have reach a point in the build for deck furniture and armerment. I would like to be a little more correct in representation since these are those things that are seen. So my question is. Is there a relationship between Sloops and Cutters, enough so that they more similar than different. 

 

Dale  :(  :o  :huh:



#2
russ

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The Mamoli kit is a topsail schooner, more from the period of the War of 1812 and possibly even later, so it is neither sloop not cutter. It is not really the Black Prince or anything very like it, past that it is a wooden hulled sailing vessel.

 

A sloop can be a single masted sailing vessel like the ones built in the arly 18th century at Bermuda, or slightly later in the Chesapeake Bay area during the mid to late 18th century. It can also be a three masted ship rigged vessel, like miniature frigate. A cutter is generally a single masted vessel but the bowsprit can be readily adjusted by hauling it inboard or outboard as the need arises.

 

Russ



#3
Bomba Bear

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Thanks for the response Russ,

 

That is what I have been finding all over the internet.

 

I guess, :rolleyes:  I was hoping you or one of the MSW long time  ship builders and historical types would know of some information that is not so easliy obtainable over the internet. 

 

O well on with the research and the build. B)

 

I guess with all that said I'll change it to a representation of an armed Bermuda Sloop and continue on

 

Thanks again

 

Dale



#4
russ

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Dale:

Will you simply remove the main mast or will you remove the main mast and reposition the foremast? To have it really look like a sloop, you would need to reposition the foremast a little aft of where it is located. Also, keep in mind that the Bermuda/Virginia sloops most often had the raised deck aft to serve as a roof for the cabin.

 

Russ



#5
Bomba Bear

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Russ

I spent most of Saturday afternoon searching through the the NMM Admiralty Ship plans looking for examples of sloops with in the time period of 1775. It is slow work but is some what rewarding.

It does appear that I will need to move the main mast more than the fore to give more room to what appears to be a boom this will also mean redoing the deck planking as well as the deck furniture. Yes I have noticed on the five or six drawings I currently have save pictures that there appears to be a swallow/short version of a Quarter deck. This looks to be great fun.

Oh well from kit build into scratch. It is where I wanted to end up. Just did not think I would have to move there this fast. That will put a stretch in the learning curve.

Thanks for the interest I guess I will get a log started to show the mistakes and the learning process. Although it will be shallow compared to the logs of the rest of the MSM master builders.

Again Thanks

Dale

#6
russ

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Dale:

You will need to eliminate one of the masts.

 

Russ



#7
Bomba Bear

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Thanks  Again Russ

 

Are there any historical accounts on the development of cutters, or something that would have basic dimentional  points as to mast placement, length vs. breath depth of the keel.
 

There is not much to find any earlier than 1800

 

 

Dale



#8
trippwj

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According to Jenny Bennett & Veres László in Sailing Rigs: An Illustrated Guide (2005), by the 18th century the term "cutter" came to describe a boat having a single, usually aft-raked, mast stepped about 1/3 to 2/5 of the water-line length back from the bow with a gaff mainsail (often loose-footed), a top sail, and usually 2 or more head sails.  I need to check some other sources for hull information on a cutter.


Edited by trippwj, 19 February 2013 - 09:58 PM.

Wayne

 

Current builds -

USRC Harriet Lane (solid hull kit - nearing completion)

Fishing Smack Emma C. Berry (POF)

Aeropiccola Kit US Frigate Essex

 

Partially built, moved to the back of the shelf for now- USRC Detector (POB)

 

Masting & Rigging Research Project

 

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#9
capnharv2

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On more modern sailboats, mast placement defines the Cutter vs. Sloop. The Cutter has the mast farther aft (I believe about 1/3rd of the WL length) and has proportionally larger headsails and smaller mainsail.

 

For a long time I thought the definition was 2 headsails makes it a cutter. Then we got our Friendship Sloop, with 2 headsails and the mast way far forward. Since then I've found the Friendship Sloop is classified as a "Twin Headsail Sloop".

 

But, like anything else, YMMV

 

Thanks,

 

Harvey



#10
probablynot

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When I was a kid, I seem to remember that rigs were defined roughly as follows:
Sloop = a mainsail and a jib.
Cutter = sloop plus an extra jib, possibly on a bowsprit.
Yawl = Sloop (or Cutter) plus a pointless and tiny sail on an extra mast perched uncomfortably close to the tiller.
Ketch = Yawl with a sensible mizen mast and a more useful sail.
There were similar definitions of schooner, brigantine etc., but sorry it was a while ago and they've slipped out of my menory!


Brian

Currently building  Constructo's 'Enterprise 1799'. http://modelshipworl...ructo-wood-151/

Previous builds - La Petite Nella (aka the AL "Mare Nostrum"). http://modelshipworl...blynot-al-wood/

,            and a 1:8 scratch-build of 'Anastasia', my old sailing kayak from back in the 1940s. http://modelshipworl...-my-1949-kayak/<p>

,           (plus a couple of real canoes, 1:1 scale, more than 60 years ago)


#11
trippwj

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Specific to the Black Prince, may want to look into some Irish historical information.

 

Going through a sampling of the Ben Franklin papers led to a whole web (no pun intended) of tantalizing possibilities. It appears that the story relayed at this link captures the meat of the ships history:
http://www.historyir...eatures/?id=196
Here are a few excerpts:
"Luke Ryan and Edward Wilde of Loughshinny had become partners in a large smuggling vessel, the Friendship with fourteen swivel guns and a crew of sixty Rush men. In February 1778 the Friendship was fitted out at Sir John Rogerston’s Quay and converted from smuggler to privateer."
"The Friendship sailed from Dublin in February 1779 and returned by the end of May. It now appears that the Friendship was bought by the Dunkirk armateur Jean Torris, and both Ryan and Wilde (sometimes known as McCatter) were minority owners. Torris was in the unusual position of owning a privateer that still carried an English admiralty letter of marque.
The Friendship had returned to Ireland with contraband goods probably bought from Torris. The Irish revenue defined both Ryan and his first cousin Wilde of Rush as piratical smugglers. John Draper, Superintendent of Excise for Dublin Port, arrested the Friendship at Rogerstown with Wilde and some crew members and impounded the goods. Later, Wilde and some other members of the Friendship crew broke out of Black Dog Prison at Ringsend and boarded armed wherries which had arrived from Skerries. They took the Friendship, the revenue guard cut the anchor line, and they sailed back to Rush. Here, they collected Ryan and more men and sailed south-easterly to Dunkirk after leaving the revenue men on shore in Dorset."

"On arrival in Dunkirk, Jean Torris renamed the Friendship the Black Prince with Ryan in command and Edward Wilde (alias McCatter) and Patrick Dowling as his officers. Later Benjamin Franklin through Torris had commissioned the Black Prince as an American privateer with an American letter of marque. The only stipulation was that an American merchant seaman Stephen Marchant from Boston would be listed as captain to fulfil the legal requirements."

So - may be able to track back a bit further into the Friendship.

Note that there are conflicting descriptions in various sources - some describe her as a Sloop, others as a Corvette, and still others as a Cutter.


Wayne

 

Current builds -

USRC Harriet Lane (solid hull kit - nearing completion)

Fishing Smack Emma C. Berry (POF)

Aeropiccola Kit US Frigate Essex

 

Partially built, moved to the back of the shelf for now- USRC Detector (POB)

 

Masting & Rigging Research Project

 

Neither should a ship rely on one small anchor, nor should life rest on a single hope.
Epictetus


#12
Bomba Bear

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Wow Wayne great find.

 

I to have been digging a little deeper. Not so much as to the Black Prince specifically. But more into the use of the term Cutter as it relates to sailing ships during the time period surrounding the Princes existence.

 

One such article by a KJ Olsen titled "A History of the Revenue Fleet" The Sailing Cutters. In his article he points out that the term Cutter was used to describ the a smugglers ship or illicit trade vessel more that the actual contructed ship it shelf. That alot of the ships used during the late 17th to early 18th centuries were in all actuallity anything from a Wherries to Smacks from Sloops to Ketchs. It wasn't until the end of the first quarter of the 1800s the Cutters where coming into there own as defined shps built for a specific purpose.

 

So I am going to keep diving in and looking for more data and validate able evidence to bring my adventure to a more believable conclusion

 

Thanks Again

 

Dale


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#13
DFellingham

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I was doing some research on the internet the other evening and came across British Admiralty definitions (in effect during the period in question) for Royal Navy armed sailing vessels. Ships over 400 tons were classified into six rates. All decked and armed vessels under 400 tons were defined as sloops, whatever the actual rig whether it be a cutter, snow, brig, ketch, schooner or ship. For this period, "sloop" simply refers to size. I hope this helps a little.


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#14
russ

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For the Black Prince, the best book I have found is Ben Franklin's Privateers, by William Bell Clark.

 

Russ



#15
Bomba Bear

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Thanks Russ

That price tag will send the house hold in arms, and the nearest library is in Germany. I have decided to follow the Sloop configuration. Due mainly to the fact that her current hull build and deck lines are more in line with that type and style of design. As well as that seems to be the more general and popular description of the Black Prince.

I am not sure whether to go to a single mast format or stay with the current two. Although it is very clear that they will need to be straightened.

Everyone has been a big help and I am greatly appreciative of all your help. So I guess its back to the drawing broad and on with the kit bashing

Dale




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