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Continental Gunboat PHILADELPHIA by Chuck Seiler - Model Shipways - 1:24 Scale - Enhanced


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Looking good Chuck.

Off to the NRG Conference this AM - preliminary stuff to do for the registration when the crowd starts to arrive tomorrow.  Will catch up on your build next week.

Take care,

Kurt

Kurt Van Dahm

Director

NAUTICAL RESEARCH GUILD

www.thenrg.org

SAY NO TO PIRACY. SUPPORT ORIGINAL IDEAS AND MANUFACTURERS

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Midwest Model Shipwrights

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Butch O'Hare - IPMS

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Thanks Kurt.  Good luck on a successful conference.  I am off to San Antonio, so no building for me for awhile.

Chuck Seiler
San Diego Ship Modelers Guild
Nautical Research Guild

 
Current Build:: Colonial Schooner SULTANA (scratch from Model Expo Plans), Hanseatic Cog Wutender Hund, John Smith Shallop
Completed:  Missouri Riverboat FAR WEST (1876) Scratch, 1776 Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (Scratch 1/4 scale-Model Shipways plans)

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  • 2 weeks later...

    Things have been slow and I wanted to try my hand at/demonstrate spiling of the exterior planking.  After the interior planking and top few planks of the exterior, one potentially gets spoiled and somewhat mistaken about how easy planking can be.  This is far from true.  As we see with the remainder of the planking, the planks are NOT the same width throughout their length (requiring tapering) and they are not straight.  Some people (including me) make the mistake of trying to edge bend them into shape.  The planks themselves need to be shaped, or spiled.

 

    PHILADELPHIA is a good place to learn this.  There are few planks and some of the work is already done for us.  The problem I am having is that the size (length) of some of the planks causes problems.

 

    The first thing to be done is to 'line off the hull'.  This is a process where we determine the number of planks required ad the proportional width of the plank thru its entire length.  On a complicated model, this is done in sections, or bands.  In REAL complicated models you have to account for cheater planks, etc.  This is far too complicated to be covered here.  There are many books on planking and some good articles on planking here at MSW.  Fortunately for us, the lining off has already been done for us.

 

 

post-1153-0-60871400-1414219536_thumb.jpg

    The frames are already marked.  The kit comes with a template to mark the appropriate spacing on the stem and stern pieces.  Here I mark inside the rabbet based on the template.

 

Chuck Seiler
San Diego Ship Modelers Guild
Nautical Research Guild

 
Current Build:: Colonial Schooner SULTANA (scratch from Model Expo Plans), Hanseatic Cog Wutender Hund, John Smith Shallop
Completed:  Missouri Riverboat FAR WEST (1876) Scratch, 1776 Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (Scratch 1/4 scale-Model Shipways plans)

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    Now I have to make/shape the plank.  The desired result will be a plank that fits flat to each frame for the entire length of the plank  AND fits snug to the plank above it, without gaps, for the entire length of the plank.

 

 

post-1153-0-42068500-1414219647_thumb.jpg

    Here I am running a batten along the hull at the points marked on the frames.  Using my finely calibrated laser beam eyes, I fine tune the batten so it runs smoothly.   It is glued in place with little dabs of glue.  It will eventually be removed.  I then mark the frames and any support pieces indicating the bottom of the first run of planking.  If I make the plank correctly, it should fit snugly in between the wale and the batten.  Any wagers?

 

 

post-1153-0-94901900-1414219647_thumb.jpg

    Here I am running a length of tape over where the plank will run in order to find its true shape.  It is critical that this runs exactly flat and straight.  Unfortunately tape bends easily and stretches.  I would prefer to use paper, but this plank is over 11 inches long.  Perhaps I should get some legal length paper.

 

    I purposely left the batten in place in order to see if I could get good plank width from it.  Normally, you get the curve of the upper side of the plank, then use your measurements from the hull-line-off to get the width at various points (each frame).  Use a French curve or ships curve to connect the dots.

 

    You can see by the stretching that the plank will be wider than needed,

 

 

post-1153-0-34221700-1414219648_thumb.jpg

    The tape 'plank' is taped to a section of 3/4" strip stock.  I will eventually use boxwood, but I did it this way to: (1) See if I can fit it on the provided stock and (2) Make a decent template before going full boxwood.

 

    Ideally, the upper left hand corner would start along the top edge of the strip, running with the top as long as possible before it dips down.  Doing it that way requires more than 3/4" width.  I compromised by setting it sideways.

 

 

post-1153-0-78469500-1414219648_thumb.jpg

    Batten removed and plank soaked/clamped in place.  It is slightly off and there is a slight gap, but sanding should fix that.  The red line is the lower limit of the planks as defined by the batten.

 

    Oooops.  Wait a minute.  Closer inspection reveals the plank is not sitting flat to the frames at it approaches the curve.  Let's see what happens when I flatted it out.

 

 

 

post-1153-0-31868900-1414219649_thumb.jpg

POOP!  That forces the bow end to bend further upward so that the red line (bottom of the plank) is almost at the point where the top of the plank should be.

 

This attempt was unsatisfactory.  It is not a failure, however, unless I do not learn something from it.  Back to the drawing board.

 

 

Chuck Seiler
San Diego Ship Modelers Guild
Nautical Research Guild

 
Current Build:: Colonial Schooner SULTANA (scratch from Model Expo Plans), Hanseatic Cog Wutender Hund, John Smith Shallop
Completed:  Missouri Riverboat FAR WEST (1876) Scratch, 1776 Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (Scratch 1/4 scale-Model Shipways plans)

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Thanks Steve.  Just think how much mo better it will be when I actually get it right? :rolleyes:

Chuck Seiler
San Diego Ship Modelers Guild
Nautical Research Guild

 
Current Build:: Colonial Schooner SULTANA (scratch from Model Expo Plans), Hanseatic Cog Wutender Hund, John Smith Shallop
Completed:  Missouri Riverboat FAR WEST (1876) Scratch, 1776 Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (Scratch 1/4 scale-Model Shipways plans)

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    I checked out Kurt's article in "Ships in Scale" again to see if he had any insight to this.  He refered to the instructions and plate 2.  I wasn't too wild about those instructions.  They might be good for anything towards the middle of the hull, say frame 3 to 13, but completely misses the mark (in my opinion) for the bow and stern areas due to the extreme curve.

 

    Kurt also references a couple good books on the subject.  The planking instructions here in MSW are pretty good too.

Edited by Chuck Seiler

Chuck Seiler
San Diego Ship Modelers Guild
Nautical Research Guild

 
Current Build:: Colonial Schooner SULTANA (scratch from Model Expo Plans), Hanseatic Cog Wutender Hund, John Smith Shallop
Completed:  Missouri Riverboat FAR WEST (1876) Scratch, 1776 Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (Scratch 1/4 scale-Model Shipways plans)

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    Second attempt at spiling the exterior planking.  This time I took a relatively fresh file folder and cut off a couple inches.  Unfortunately, that puts the hinge somewhere in the middle, since it is over 14 inches long.  No worries.

 

 

post-1153-0-08956800-1414377019_thumb.jpg

    I flat mounted the card stock as best I could for the length of the plank.  Clamped in place.  Next, I rubbed along the lower edge of the plank above so it was properly marked.  I rubbed in a little pencil so it would be better visible.  The resulting edge is pointed out by the arrows.

 

    I cut along that edge and remounted the card stock.  It should have been a close fit.

 

 

post-1153-0-63748500-1414377019_thumb.jpg

    What should have been and what was were two different things.  Fortunately card stock is cheap and plentiful, so I marked it again, ensuring it was flat, and pressed on.

 

 

post-1153-0-01068000-1414377020_thumb.jpg

    Here is how it turned out.  I fitted it against the hull and it fit great.  I'm not sure why I didn't get a picture....I thought I had.  In theory, it should fit the other side of the hull too.  It fit okay, not great, but I can work with it.

 

    This picture has it mounted on 3/4" strip stock with the top edge running along the top edge of the strip.  This is well wide of the mark.  I estimate it would take at least a 1" wide strip to do t this way.  I am not sure how to do it with what is provided in the kit.  Mount it cockeyed?  Edge-bend it?  Make it shorter?  Kurt, any thoughts?

 

 

post-1153-0-46636600-1414377020_thumb.jpg

    Close up of the overhang

 

 

 

post-1153-0-64431200-1414377022_thumb.jpg

    Fortunately, Micheal's has 3" x 1/16" stock.  I transferred the curve to this stock and measured a working width of more than what is needed.  I won't mark the final dimensions until the top of the plank is PERFECTLY fitted.

 

 

post-1153-0-41011800-1414377023_thumb.jpg

    About 1 1/4"

 

 

    More to follow.

Chuck Seiler
San Diego Ship Modelers Guild
Nautical Research Guild

 
Current Build:: Colonial Schooner SULTANA (scratch from Model Expo Plans), Hanseatic Cog Wutender Hund, John Smith Shallop
Completed:  Missouri Riverboat FAR WEST (1876) Scratch, 1776 Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (Scratch 1/4 scale-Model Shipways plans)

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Chuck:

I think it will work better if you follow the planking diagram and do not use planks the full length of the boat - or close to the full length as it appears you are doing by mentioning that the fold of the file folder is a problem.  The problem you are having with the spiled plank running off the width of the plank can be eliminated by using planks the length as shown on the planking diagram and cocking the plank of the strip as you thought.  Of course, you need to make the rough plank a bit longer than the final plank just to allow a bit of trimming at either or both ends as you do the final fitting.

 

Also, get a good fit to the bottom of the plank above w/o tearing your hair out, trim the bottom of the plank to a rough width using the marks on the frames for the proper width and then wet the plank, clamp it in place, making as good a fit to the underside of the plank above and when dry do final fitting of the top edge to the plank above.  Then,, do the final trimming of the lower edge of the plank to the marks from the frames, fair the edge and it should be a perfect fit.

 

With the top edge a close fit and then soaking the plank, a bit of edge bending to make a real tight fit can be done w/o a problem.

 

Take care,

Kurt

Kurt Van Dahm

Director

NAUTICAL RESEARCH GUILD

www.thenrg.org

SAY NO TO PIRACY. SUPPORT ORIGINAL IDEAS AND MANUFACTURERS

CLUBS

Nautical Research & Model Ship Society of Chicago

Midwest Model Shipwrights

North Shore Deadeyes

The Society of Model Shipwrights

Butch O'Hare - IPMS

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What Kurt suggests is essentially what I ended up doing, using a piece of heavy weight card stock to determine the shape of the plank.  I think that all of the bow and stern planks needed to be cut from the 3/4" wide stock from the kit, but I had plenty left over (as I was told would be the case).  The only problem I ran into was not having the patience to get the final shape right so that the plank edges would line up smoothly.  That I chalk up to a combination of climbing the learning curve and my built in impatience.  I have always been a bit of a measure once cut twice sort of guy  ;).

 

Mark

Edited by MarkCC
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Kurt,

    What am I missing?  My planking diagram shows the bow planks to the strake under the wale (W+1) as running from the bow to frame 9.  That is over 13 inches long.

Chuck Seiler
San Diego Ship Modelers Guild
Nautical Research Guild

 
Current Build:: Colonial Schooner SULTANA (scratch from Model Expo Plans), Hanseatic Cog Wutender Hund, John Smith Shallop
Completed:  Missouri Riverboat FAR WEST (1876) Scratch, 1776 Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (Scratch 1/4 scale-Model Shipways plans)

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Chuck:

You are correct.  This is actually the longest plank other than the very lowest which is the same length to frame 9.  I didn't measure it but I am sure you are right on the 13".  I just do not remember that plank having such a curve.  Unfortunately, my last shop clean up I looked at the planking templates I had cut from the file folders and said "Dump these - you are never going to do another of this model" and for a change I actually discarded them.  Bummer.  I am positive that each plank was able to be spiled from at most the widest planking strips w/o having to cut any wider strips.  The plank that you showed yesterday seemed to curve a lot more than I remember.

 

The photo attached shows the plank directly below the plank in question being fit to the model and it does show that plank going to frame 9.  I just do not remember the plank having such a curve to it. 

 

I have probably just confused the issue.  But if you got it to fit cutting it from another width piece I guess the problem is solved.  Sorry that I don't have the answer.  Maybe I should have paid more attention? :)

 

Kurt

post-177-0-72177900-1414454323_thumb.jpg

Kurt Van Dahm

Director

NAUTICAL RESEARCH GUILD

www.thenrg.org

SAY NO TO PIRACY. SUPPORT ORIGINAL IDEAS AND MANUFACTURERS

CLUBS

Nautical Research & Model Ship Society of Chicago

Midwest Model Shipwrights

North Shore Deadeyes

The Society of Model Shipwrights

Butch O'Hare - IPMS

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    You are correct...the curve is a bit too severe, by 1/8 inch.  Easily fixable.  I could edge bend it into place, but that defeats the purpose for which intended.

 

    The bottom strake does, indeed, have a butt at frame 9, but checking the planking diagram I see that there are joints also at frames 12 and 15.  The only plank close to that same length is the after most plank on W+1 at 10 inches.

 

    Checking the planking diagram, I had previously checked to see if maybe a joint was obscured by the anchor (sheet 5).  However, if you check sheet 6 you see that it does not.  Plank 1 of W+1 IS 13 inches.

 

    Pressing on.. 

Chuck Seiler
San Diego Ship Modelers Guild
Nautical Research Guild

 
Current Build:: Colonial Schooner SULTANA (scratch from Model Expo Plans), Hanseatic Cog Wutender Hund, John Smith Shallop
Completed:  Missouri Riverboat FAR WEST (1876) Scratch, 1776 Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (Scratch 1/4 scale-Model Shipways plans)

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I'll be happy when I can get to the shorter planks.

Chuck Seiler
San Diego Ship Modelers Guild
Nautical Research Guild

 
Current Build:: Colonial Schooner SULTANA (scratch from Model Expo Plans), Hanseatic Cog Wutender Hund, John Smith Shallop
Completed:  Missouri Riverboat FAR WEST (1876) Scratch, 1776 Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (Scratch 1/4 scale-Model Shipways plans)

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Chuck:

Yeah, you are right about the lower plank having the other joints.  I did follow the planking diagram and each plank is the length shown on the diagram.  I was able to fit every plank onto a plank furnished in the kit and there were plenty extra even when I did use some of the wider planks for some that the instructions said could be made with narrower planks.

Once you have the plank we have been discussing fit place please show us the bare plank as shaped.  I just don't remember any plank causing a problem or not fitting on the planks furnished.

Take care,

Kurt

Kurt Van Dahm

Director

NAUTICAL RESEARCH GUILD

www.thenrg.org

SAY NO TO PIRACY. SUPPORT ORIGINAL IDEAS AND MANUFACTURERS

CLUBS

Nautical Research & Model Ship Society of Chicago

Midwest Model Shipwrights

North Shore Deadeyes

The Society of Model Shipwrights

Butch O'Hare - IPMS

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Will do.

Chuck Seiler
San Diego Ship Modelers Guild
Nautical Research Guild

 
Current Build:: Colonial Schooner SULTANA (scratch from Model Expo Plans), Hanseatic Cog Wutender Hund, John Smith Shallop
Completed:  Missouri Riverboat FAR WEST (1876) Scratch, 1776 Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (Scratch 1/4 scale-Model Shipways plans)

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  • 2 weeks later...

    Most of this was done a week ago...it just took time to get around to posting.

 

post-1153-0-94383100-1415469328_thumb.jpg

    Here is the faux plank/template fitted its entire length.  I show the template because I still have not cut the final plank.  I plan to do that this weekend.

 

 

post-1153-0-36645200-1415469329_thumb.jpg

    This shows a closeup shot of the bow/forward portion of the plank.  Note tight fit.  The final width of the plank is marked but I did not cut because I want to use this as a template on the other side as well.

 

 

post-1153-0-80450300-1415469329_thumb.jpg

    Middle portion of the plank.

 

 

 

post-1153-0-22495300-1415469330_thumb.jpg

    Aft portion of the plank.

 

 

 

post-1153-0-50518300-1415469328_thumb.jpg

     Here is the plank mounted on one of the 3/4" thick basswood strips.  The ruler increments do not show well, so I marked the 1/2", 1" and 1 1/2" points (green) as well as the limits of the plank (red).  

 

    Once the plank was smoothed, fitted and sitting correctly, the bend was not as severe as originally thought, but much greater than 3/4"...slightly over 1".

Chuck Seiler
San Diego Ship Modelers Guild
Nautical Research Guild

 
Current Build:: Colonial Schooner SULTANA (scratch from Model Expo Plans), Hanseatic Cog Wutender Hund, John Smith Shallop
Completed:  Missouri Riverboat FAR WEST (1876) Scratch, 1776 Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (Scratch 1/4 scale-Model Shipways plans)

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   With the exception of a couple short planks low in the bow/stern, I have completed planking the interior ceiling planking.

 

post-1153-0-47537000-1415469843_thumb.jpg

    Length view of the interior.

 

 

post-1153-0-90159800-1415469843_thumb.jpg

    Close up view of the bow where the planks meet.  Note missing plank on lower left.  This turned out pretty well, but there is room for improvement.  It looks alot better in real life and this portion of the planking will be pretty much obscured by the forward gun.

 

 

 

post-1153-0-41099700-1415469844_thumb.jpg

    Close up view of the stern where the planks meet.  This turned out much better, mostly because I found the right and to start off with and miter cut (rather than sanded) the angle on each piece before wetting and clamping.

 

     There is still much fine sanding to be done.  I want to hold off on that until the exterior planking is done so that any clamp marring can be removed at that time.

Chuck Seiler
San Diego Ship Modelers Guild
Nautical Research Guild

 
Current Build:: Colonial Schooner SULTANA (scratch from Model Expo Plans), Hanseatic Cog Wutender Hund, John Smith Shallop
Completed:  Missouri Riverboat FAR WEST (1876) Scratch, 1776 Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (Scratch 1/4 scale-Model Shipways plans)

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Progress Continues.....

 

    I transferred the upper curve to a piece of boxwood sheet.  I measured about 1/8 of an inch over design plank width and cut it out.  I didn't get a picture, but you probably don't need one.  I will need to plan my layout so as to avoid too much wastage.

 

    Once the uber plank is cut out and sanded to the lines, I fit it in place.  It was nearly perfect.

 

    Soak, clamp in place and let dry.

 

    Once dry, dry fit it into place.   little touch up here and there and bevel the top inside....fits like a glove.

 

 

post-1153-0-67846400-1415508359_thumb.jpg

    Now I have to come up with the finished width.  I had previously marked the plank at the frame locations.  With a compass, I now take the plank width measurement from the hull (from the lining off process) at frame 9 at one end of the plank...

 

 

post-1153-0-10750400-1415508360_thumb.jpg

    ...and mark it on the corresponding spot on the plank.

 

 

 

post-1153-0-54409300-1415508360_thumb.jpgpost-1153-0-97314200-1415508360_thumb.jpg

    I do this at each location all the way to the bow and the 'hood ends' marked on the rabbet. 

 

     Now connect the dots.  It is actually pretty easy.  The plank is the same width from frame 9 to frame 14 so I can just run the compass down the plank to that point.  After that it widens.  I sued a ship's curve to connect those dots.  A French curve will work as well.

 

 

 

post-1153-0-43681000-1415508361_thumb.jpg

    We are not quite ready to glue in place yet.  Remember, the bottom curve of the plank is the same as the top curve of the plank below it.  Rather than have to do the whole song and dance previously done with the tape and the card stock to get the curve, I just lay the plank on a piece of boxwood sheet and trace the curve.  Ta daaaaa!!!!

Chuck Seiler
San Diego Ship Modelers Guild
Nautical Research Guild

 
Current Build:: Colonial Schooner SULTANA (scratch from Model Expo Plans), Hanseatic Cog Wutender Hund, John Smith Shallop
Completed:  Missouri Riverboat FAR WEST (1876) Scratch, 1776 Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (Scratch 1/4 scale-Model Shipways plans)

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    Once you get that first curve, it becomes easier.  My starboard template ended up fitting the port side fairly well once it was soaked and clamped properly, so I should be able to crank that out today.

 

    The aft-most plank being shorter, looks easier to form as well.  Things should speed up from here. 

Chuck Seiler
San Diego Ship Modelers Guild
Nautical Research Guild

 
Current Build:: Colonial Schooner SULTANA (scratch from Model Expo Plans), Hanseatic Cog Wutender Hund, John Smith Shallop
Completed:  Missouri Riverboat FAR WEST (1876) Scratch, 1776 Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (Scratch 1/4 scale-Model Shipways plans)

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Chuck, I am impressed with how well you are able to get the planks to butt up against one another.  I used essentially the same procedure as you describe, but with somewhat less success.  I do however feel like I was getting the hang of it towards the end.

 

Mark

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I have this kit waiting in the wings, but with all the effort on fitting the planks I glad i have to finish the Confederacy first.

Flying Fish --  MSW

Essex ---  MSW

Constitution  --  MSW

Confederacy -- MSW

Philadelphia -- MSW 

Chaperon -- MSW

San Felipe -- Panart

Portland -- Bluejacket

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Chuck, I am impressed with how well you are able to get the planks to butt up against one another.  I used essentially the same procedure as you describe, but with somewhat less success.  I do however feel like I was getting the hang of it towards the end.

 

Mark

Mark,

   How do I get the planks to butt up against each other???...alot of practice and alot of reworked hulls. 

 

   Bottom line is that it is a matter of 'attention to detail'.  You have to plan where everything is going to be.  The first strake sets the tone for the rest of the hull.  When fitting the next plank (under), once the basic form/curve is achieved and it has been soaked/clamped/dried, it is a matter of micro-fitting the plank and mating it to the one above.  The inside bevel is important as well, or else you will ALWAYS get that gap.  It takes time.  It took the better part of a day to get W+1/1/S (1st strake under the wale, plank 1, starboard side) fitted in.  The rest are coming a bit faster...but by no means with blazing speed.

 

Chborgm,

    Ya gotta be kidding me?  This has got to be WAY easier than CONFEDERACY.  There are only 3 strakes below the wale and the hull is pre-lined.  That first plank below the wale is a *&$%! because it is so long.  In mind, that allows problems to creep in.  Once that one is done, the rest are much easier.

Chuck Seiler
San Diego Ship Modelers Guild
Nautical Research Guild

 
Current Build:: Colonial Schooner SULTANA (scratch from Model Expo Plans), Hanseatic Cog Wutender Hund, John Smith Shallop
Completed:  Missouri Riverboat FAR WEST (1876) Scratch, 1776 Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (Scratch 1/4 scale-Model Shipways plans)

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Steve,

    If you make your plank slightly wider ( I usually go about 1.25 the final width) than the desired finished width, you can micro trim the top without having to trash the entire plank.  It definitely takes practice, particularly in the curve, since taking a wee bit from any area can impact the entire lay of the curve.

 

    Once all the planks are snug in place, sand until even and beyond...sand until baby butt smooth.  I usually get down to 400 grit sand paper.

Chuck Seiler
San Diego Ship Modelers Guild
Nautical Research Guild

 
Current Build:: Colonial Schooner SULTANA (scratch from Model Expo Plans), Hanseatic Cog Wutender Hund, John Smith Shallop
Completed:  Missouri Riverboat FAR WEST (1876) Scratch, 1776 Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (Scratch 1/4 scale-Model Shipways plans)

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Steve,

 

    I don't think you will regret your decision. 

Chuck Seiler
San Diego Ship Modelers Guild
Nautical Research Guild

 
Current Build:: Colonial Schooner SULTANA (scratch from Model Expo Plans), Hanseatic Cog Wutender Hund, John Smith Shallop
Completed:  Missouri Riverboat FAR WEST (1876) Scratch, 1776 Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (Scratch 1/4 scale-Model Shipways plans)

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post-1153-0-22209200-1415679709_thumb.jpg

 

    Extra wide planks drawn out on boxwood sheet.

Chuck Seiler
San Diego Ship Modelers Guild
Nautical Research Guild

 
Current Build:: Colonial Schooner SULTANA (scratch from Model Expo Plans), Hanseatic Cog Wutender Hund, John Smith Shallop
Completed:  Missouri Riverboat FAR WEST (1876) Scratch, 1776 Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (Scratch 1/4 scale-Model Shipways plans)

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