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Pickle by Blue Ensign - FINISHED - Caldercraft - 1:64 scale


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Just found this log and it saddens me that I did not become aware of it until late in the game.  You've done a fine job on this little gem and, at the same time, provided a brilliant narrative.

 

I shall look forward to your projects in future.

Augie

 

Current Build: US Frigate Confederacy - MS 1:64

 

Previous Builds :

 

US Brig Syren (MS) - 2013 (see Completed Ship Gallery)

Greek Tug Ulises (OcCre) - 2009 (see Completed Ship Gallery)

Victory Cross Section (Corel) - 1988

Essex (MS) 1/8"- 1976

Cutty Sark (Revell 1:96) - 1956

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Hello B. E.,

 

Your model looks awesome! 

 

And the build log is great. It is almost like a step by step tutorial on how to do model ships. It is making things looking much more easier then they are.

 

Thank you very much for taking the time to repost it, I think it will help and inspire a lot of people.

 

Best Regards,

Daniel

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Hi B.E.

Congratulations on a superb build! Outstanding! I love your boxwood coloring.

 

 Before starting my current build I was considering Pickle but I really disliked some details. You did away some of my concerns (transom, size of the boats) but others are remaining.

 

 

I  don’t believe that a boat really was stowed off centerline thus creating not only a miss trim by its weight but also by the possibility for the wind to get some hold on it. And in addition some gun ports are blocked too. You could balance the weight by putting more guns on the opposite side but you still would have to rearrange your armament every time you use the boat. So why not ask for smaller boats which could be stowed between the masts?

 

 

Probably you know that contemporary picture of Pickle, where the fore mast seems straight rectangular to the deck while the main mast keeps its aft fall.

The Royal Naval Museum model of Pickle has its fore mast set more forward (with aft fall).

Both variations are moving the balance point of the sail area more forward than on Caldercrafts Pickle which means its fore mast position seems at least questionable.

 

I put those questions forward to Caldercraft. The answer was that they couldn’t change the original plans and left the question open why on that contemporary picture pickle looks different.

 

What do you think?

 

Cheers

Peter

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Hi Peter,

 

That contemporary painting of Pickle by Robert Dodd does indeed show the Foremast vertical and the Mainmast with rake.

When I spoke to Richard Wright at Jotika he said that the painting was the main source of information for the placing of the gaff above the crossjack yard. They obviously didn’t also take the relative mast positions into account.

 

I always thought the Foremast was set a little far back but I spent hours staring at schooners in several books and came to the conclusion that the mast positions varied greatly and there were examples very similar to the Pickle kit set up.

 

Colin White the Curator of the Naval Museum has stated As far as we have been able to tell, no plans of Pickle survive and none of the many paintings she appears in can be considered definitive.

 

The Naval museum model of the Pickle  commissioned in 1968 is also at variance with what we know of Pickle in terms of the armament and doubts have been raised that the model  truly represented her. There is a suggestion that it was based on the plans of HMS Haddock.

 

http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/85908.html

 

Colin White is also said to believe that the model was not intended to be “Pickle“, rather a close representation of a naval schooner of that period.
 

This is partly because of the inconclusive research available when the model was made and partly because the model is very unlike any smart cutter, as “Sting” was described, of the period.
Significantly, by the late 18th century “smart cutters” were built with finer lines than those of the model.

 

For those who may not have seen the Naval Museum model here's a few photos taken for me by my  friend Chris (chrism as on the old MSW) as part of my research for the build.

Portsmouth%2520day%2520out%2520229.jpg

 

Portsmouth%2520day%2520out%2520234.jpg

The set up with the bitts is different to the kit, and there is no windlass.

 

Portsmouth%2520day%2520out%2520236.jpg

There is just one small jolly boat set centrally, the set up not particularly well done I thought.

 

Portsmouth%2520day%2520out%2520237.jpg

She is fitted with eight carronades and two carriage guns, not what is recorded as the Pickle ordnance.

 

Portsmouth%2520day%2520out%2520235.jpg

 

As with many things to do with our interest there are more questions than answers, and even the ‘experts’ can’t always agree.

 

All of this is of course academic as what we are dealing with here is a beginner level kit that most builders accept at face value and it does make up into an attractive model with more than a nod to a schooner of the period.

 

Jotika may be at fault by claiming that the kit is an exact scale model designed using original Admiralty plans , which infers that the plans were of Pickle without clarifying that they didn’t specifically mean Pickle, but  plans of a schooner of the period. There are a lot worse examples in other kit manufacturers claiming a real history for none existent ships.

 

I have seen working boats of the sort of Pickle dimension with the small jolly boat parked on the side, but I also think centrally placed would be better. Pickle was said to carry a cutter and a jolly boat.

 

On the model there is just enough room to fit a scale 16’ cutter (Jolly boat) between the Mainmast and the Galley chimney, and I could have placed the smaller boat in that position.

 

I still like Pickle as a model and the foregoing would not put me off building it.

 

Regards,

 

B.E.

 

 

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Thanks for the summary on Pickle.  I always find your descriptions and research fascinating.

Augie

 

Current Build: US Frigate Confederacy - MS 1:64

 

Previous Builds :

 

US Brig Syren (MS) - 2013 (see Completed Ship Gallery)

Greek Tug Ulises (OcCre) - 2009 (see Completed Ship Gallery)

Victory Cross Section (Corel) - 1988

Essex (MS) 1/8"- 1976

Cutty Sark (Revell 1:96) - 1956

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Hi B.E.

 

Thank you for the very interesting and extensive answer.

 

As I understand JoTiKa says that they are using plans of a (Bermuda build) schooner which seems to be very similar to what is known about Pickle. So, they regarded it as kind of a sister ship and did stick strictly to those plans. Unfortunately no reproduction of those plans is easily available (it seems somebody wants eventually publish a book about that subject). So this model certainly is NOT Pickle but perhaps a sister. In my opinion this should be made clearer by JoTiKa and the model should be renamed.

 

The Boats were apparently just taken out of what was available from Caldercraft. By the way – I like what you did with those boats. Unfortunately they don’t sell any 16’ boats – only 18’ and 14’.

 

I still fancy that kit for a project between bigger ones and as one which could be built with full sails. In any case my boat(s) would be positioned in a traditional way and the actual rake of the fore mast would be decided while building.

Also the dimensions are modest enough to smuggle the finished model into some nice spot, e.g. on your desk, where it would hardly be noted by the admiralty.

 

Cheers

Peter

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Not Admiralty Plans then?  how mysterious, it would be nice to know the origin.

 

Pickle would make a very nice desk model, I have mine in the Dining Room with full approval of the Admiralty, she really likes these small craft models. They are also fairly easy to keep clean uncased. :)

 

I rather  glossed over the size differential with Pegasus, when I bought it but she likes that too certainly as a hull only model, what she will feel when she sees it masted and sparred I'm not so sure :rolleyes:

 

B.E.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Wonderful build log, beautiful model.  Anyone building the Pickle will be very fortunate to have and refer to your build. Congrats!

 

BFN

 

 

Cheers,

 

Hopeful aka David

 

 

“there is wisdom in many voices”

 

 

Completed: Sharpie Schooner (Midwest) Posted on kit build log.

 

Current: Sultana (MSW) Updating the build log and continuing on with the build

 

 

Next: Lady Nelson (Amati Victory)

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Thanks for the summary on Pickle.  I always find your descriptions and research fascinating.

You're welcome Augie, your words are much appreciated.

 

Wonderful build log, beautiful model.  Anyone building the Pickle will be very fortunate to have and refer to your build. Congrats!

 

BFN

 

 

 

Cheers,

 

Hopeful aka David

 

 

 

“there is wisdom in many voices”

 

 

 

Completed: Sharpie Schooner (Midwest) Posted on kit build log.

 

Current: Sultana (MSW) Updating the build log and continuing on with the build

 

 

 

Next: Lady Nelson (Amati Victory)

 I'm glad you like it David, and thank you for your generous words. I hope the log is of assistance to those thinking of building Pickle.

 

Regards,

 

B.E.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Blue Ensign.

Whilst finishing Sherbourne (my first build) I was looking for my next project and chose Pickle. It is bigger than Sherbourne with more rigging - which I have enjoyed - even though my ratlines are more RATTYlines - and the copper plating looked a challenge, alsoafter reading your build log (amongst others) I was sold.

 

To the point:

 

Pickle has arrived and progress has started, but whilst waiting for it I picked up a book on rigging "Rigging fore-and-aft Craft" by Lennarth Petersson and remembered your discussion of  the 3 shroud 1 backstay or 4 & 1 In post #35.

To sum up for others (as it was a long time ago, and you have finished Pickle anyway) JoTika/Caldercraft state that the ratlines only run across the first three shrouds, and that the fourth was actually a backstay, your point - proven by the trusty "Dick" & "Tom" - was that this did not give enough space to navigate the shrouds for a crewman.  I could immediately see what you meant and decided to do the same when I got there, But my new book shows a third option somewhat between yours & Caldercrafts.

 

"Rigging fore-and-aft" has three case studies, the third being an American schooner (Experiment) built in 1808 and of approximately the same dimensions as pickle (though it does have Topmasts and Topgallants). On Experiment the foremast has four shrouds, each connected by ratlines as would be expected. But the main only has three; counting from the Bow, shrouds three and four are a continuous line around the masthead as usual but attaching to deadeyes 2 and 3, and shroud two is attached to deadeye 1 with ratlines running  between the three of them.  Please bear with me it now gets difficult to describe;  what would be shroud one stops at a block about a third of the way to the deck and is then rigged like a backstay (Though both masts have specified backstays) with its two ends each terminating between a pair of deadeyes - this would-be shroud is labelled "Main Tackle & Top". The foremast has a "Fore" tackle & top that is terminated on the Channel between pairs of deadeyes, but this is separate to the 4 shrouds.

 

Finally getting to the point:

 

The upshot is that by having the arrangement described above, the deadeyes are further apart than Pickle giving "Tom" more room to work, and in my opinion would look good, as well as being a bit different to the norm, But...

Finally...

the questions - to Blue ensign or anyone else who might know -

 

1. Is this American arrangement a ludicrous idea for a Navy Schooner of the time?

 

2. What are the ****Tackle & Top for - they are in essence - to my inexperienced eyes - the same as the backstays but laterally, which is a bit like a   shroud anyway?

 

Lastly I will apologise in advance if the above is a. stupid or b. indecipherable (I would have scanned the relevant sections but realised that copyrights etc forbade this).

 

 

Blue Ensign, your Pickle is superb, I hope mine ends nearly as good.

 

Thanks Skippy

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Hi Skippy that’s quite a question.
 

I do have the Petersson  book  so I can see what you are  referring to.
 

I didn’t use the book much for rigging Pickle, my main reference sources were The Global schooner by Marquardt , The Colonial schooner by Hahn, and The cutter Alert by  Peter Goodwin.
 

Those tackles referred to by Petersson were not part of the standing rigging as such; with an odd number of shrouds on the Mainmast  the shortened leg of one pair had a block turned into the end as shown by Petersson with the tackles set up as per pages 74/75 of his book.
 

The tackles were used for lifting heavy equipment
 

With Pickle the tackle pendants were a separate item of rigging going over the masthead first before the shrouds. You can see this on page 76 of Petersson in relation to the Fore Mast.
 

Instead of a block being turned in the end, I used thimbles into which the tackle block would be hooked when required. The tackles are unrigged on my Pickle, but the pendants with the thimbles can be seen in many of the photos.
 

The tackles did not always hook into the channels, ring bolts set in the waterways inside the rails were also used.
 

Rigging Pickle as per Petersson would be a bit crowded on the kit provided channels without some modification, and you would need to watch out for where the gunport splits the Main channels.

 

Finally thank you for your kind comment about my build.
 

Cheers,
 

B.E.

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Thanks for that Blue Ensign.

                                            Ship modelling is a steep learning curve, as well as the skills you need to develop, the language, and understanding the uses of each piece of equipment is just as hard.

At least I know what the "tackle" mentioned in the Petersson book is for. .... i think  ;)

 

Thanks again

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  • 6 months later...

Very nice build, where do you get one of those x-acto saw blades I have never seen one before

Thanks,

Pete

"may your sails be full of wind and the sun on your back"
 
Current Builds :

 

 

 

 

 Future Builds :
 

N.G Herreshoff 12 1/2 Scratch Build 3/4" = 1' - 0" Scale

 

Completed Builds :

 

Volvo 65 Farr Yacht Design

Herreshoff Alerion

Herreshoff Buzzards Bay 14

Volvo Open 70

 

 Member : 

 

The Herreshoff Registry                                  Montgomery Sailboat Owners Group       Peter Kunst Sailboat Models 
http://www.herreshoffregistry.org/                       http://www.msog.org/                      http://www.facebook.com/Peter-Kunst-Sailboat-Models-1524464774524480/ 

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Thanks B.E., I would appreciate that. I have never seen them before your build looks amazing. Great detail work

 

Best Reagrds,

Pete

"may your sails be full of wind and the sun on your back"
 
Current Builds :

 

 

 

 

 Future Builds :
 

N.G Herreshoff 12 1/2 Scratch Build 3/4" = 1' - 0" Scale

 

Completed Builds :

 

Volvo 65 Farr Yacht Design

Herreshoff Alerion

Herreshoff Buzzards Bay 14

Volvo Open 70

 

 Member : 

 

The Herreshoff Registry                                  Montgomery Sailboat Owners Group       Peter Kunst Sailboat Models 
http://www.herreshoffregistry.org/                       http://www.msog.org/                      http://www.facebook.com/Peter-Kunst-Sailboat-Models-1524464774524480/ 

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  • 5 months later...

The bearding line is usually shown on the kit plan, this is simply transferred to the false keel to mark the line for subsequent tapering. I used a simple jig to give me the depth of taper required. The first page of my log gives details of how I did it.

 

The bearding line is shown on the Pickle plans, and is covered in the book of instructions.

 

 It is also useful to cut a rabbet along the bottom of the false keel and up the stem to allow for a neater finish of the planking. I didn't  cut one on my Pickle build but would do so were I to do it again.

 

If you are a little unsure about this whole planking business there are some useful downloads on the MSW Database.

 

http://modelshipworldforum.com/resources/Framing_and_Planking/plankingprojectbeginners.pdf

 

This basic guide to planking may be of help.

 

B.E.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi B.E. Firstly I got to say that this is one of my favourite build logs, I must have read it 5 times. Not sure I'm ready for a Fly or Pegasus yet so Pickle still a contender. I'm curious as to what the brass stamp says on the display stand and was it part of the kit?

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Hi B.E.

 

just looked up your Pickle build once again, what a lovely model.

The Color composing, deck planking, coppering, deckhousings and -hatches, all Fitting out deatails look so authentic and great

 

Nils

Current builds

-Lightship Elbe 1

Completed

- Steamship Ergenstrasse ex Laker Corsicana 1918- scale 1:87 scratchbuild

"Zeesboot"  heritage wooden fishing small craft around 1870, POB  clinker scratch build scale 1:24

Pilot Schooner # 5 ELBE  ex Wanderbird, scale 1:50 scratchbuild

Mississippi Sterwheelsteamer built as christmapresent for grandson modified kit build

Chebec "Eagle of Algier" 1753--scale 1:48-POB-(scratchbuild) 

"SS Kaiser Wilhelm der Grosse" four stacker passenger liner of 1897, blue ribbond awarded, 1:144 (scratchbuild)
"HMS Pegasus" , 16 gun sloop, Swan-Class 1776-1777 scale 1:64 from Amati plan 

-"Pamir" 4-mast barque, P-liner, 1:96  (scratchbuild)

-"Gorch Fock 2" German Navy cadet training 3-mast barque, 1:95 (scratchbuild) 

"Heinrich Kayser" heritage Merchant Steamship, 1:96 (scratchbuild)  original was my grandfathers ship

-"Bohuslän" , heritage ,live Swedish museum passenger steamer (Billings kit), 1:50 

"Lorbas", river tug, steam driven for RC, fictive design (scratchbuild), scale appr. 1:32

under restoration / restoration finished 

"Hjejlen" steam paddlewheeler, 1861, Billings Boats rare old kit, scale 1:50

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  • 3 months later...

Thank you for looking in on my build Mike. :)

 

My understanding is that that is the way it was done in the Eighteenth century on British Naval ships, starting at the keel, following the sheer of the hull line, each plate overlapping the one above it.

 

The fitting of parallel plates at the waterline and the use of gore strakes of copper seem to be a later feature  appearing in the nineteenth century on British ships.

 

Cheers,

 

B.E.

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Although already completed B.E,

always a pleasure to look at again, your "Pickle"

 

Nils

Current builds

-Lightship Elbe 1

Completed

- Steamship Ergenstrasse ex Laker Corsicana 1918- scale 1:87 scratchbuild

"Zeesboot"  heritage wooden fishing small craft around 1870, POB  clinker scratch build scale 1:24

Pilot Schooner # 5 ELBE  ex Wanderbird, scale 1:50 scratchbuild

Mississippi Sterwheelsteamer built as christmapresent for grandson modified kit build

Chebec "Eagle of Algier" 1753--scale 1:48-POB-(scratchbuild) 

"SS Kaiser Wilhelm der Grosse" four stacker passenger liner of 1897, blue ribbond awarded, 1:144 (scratchbuild)
"HMS Pegasus" , 16 gun sloop, Swan-Class 1776-1777 scale 1:64 from Amati plan 

-"Pamir" 4-mast barque, P-liner, 1:96  (scratchbuild)

-"Gorch Fock 2" German Navy cadet training 3-mast barque, 1:95 (scratchbuild) 

"Heinrich Kayser" heritage Merchant Steamship, 1:96 (scratchbuild)  original was my grandfathers ship

-"Bohuslän" , heritage ,live Swedish museum passenger steamer (Billings kit), 1:50 

"Lorbas", river tug, steam driven for RC, fictive design (scratchbuild), scale appr. 1:32

under restoration / restoration finished 

"Hjejlen" steam paddlewheeler, 1861, Billings Boats rare old kit, scale 1:50

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  • 4 months later...
  • 3 years later...

I would agree Steve the kit supplied blocks for the bijou carronades are over scale.

I used 2mm versions from the now defunct JB Models, today I would use Syren versions.

I think the rigging line sizes for the guns also needs looking at, there does need to be a visible difference between the side tackle lines and the breaching rope. 0.1mm dia line for the tackles is more than enough.

Line isn’t the only issue when rigging these guns, getting tiny seizings is also problematic.

I cheated on my build using fine wire and frapping  to try and get a scale appearance.

One thing I find with many kits is that the mast and yards are too heavy for the scale and could do with fining down somewhat.

 

Regards,

 

B.E.

 

 

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  • The title was changed to Pickle by Blue Ensign - FINISHED - Caldercraft - 1:64 scale

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