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How to make tan bark sails


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Hi Everyone,

 

Some questions on making tan bark sails:

 

1: should the sails be dyed after sewing or before?

 

2. Does anyone have a specific procedure for dyeing sail cloth to make a good tan bark result?

 

Thank you

 

Jason

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Dye before sewing or the hems will soak up too much and darken.

 

I haven't tried dyeing but have heard of some using coffee to good effect.

 

Ken

Current Build: Authentic Hannah Kit Bash

Pending Continuation: Sea of Galilee Boat

 

Completed Build:  MS AVS

On Shelf: AL Independence, Blue Jacket Alfred

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What do you mean by 'tan bark' sails actually ?

 

Do you mean canvas sails that have been 'tanned' in a broth of tree bark and the smeared with a mixture of tallow and ochre ?

 

Or do you mean sails made from tree bark as used on some idigeneous Pacific boats of old ?

wefalck

 

panta rhei - Everything is in flux

 

 

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Tea and coffee are acidic.

Coffee is acidic but tea is more or less neutral.  The acidity of tea will be the same as the water used to make it.  A interesting thing about tea is the more acidic the water the lighter the color.  If you want darker color putting a pinch of calcium carbonate in the pot will do it.  However if you put in to much the tannins in the tea will start celating with the calcium ions and make a sort of scum on the surface.

Edited by grsjax

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I am not absolutely sure about this, but both tea and coffee, being organic items and subject to decomposition, may cause the sails to deteriorate with time.

I hope some one can shed some light on this matter.

There aren't but two options: do it FAST, or do it RIGHT.

 

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Tannic acid is not very acidic but it is a good point.  Generally the natural pH of rain water is between 5.5 and 6, neutral being 7.  This is due to the desolved CO2 in the rain water.  In pH7 water the tannic acid in strong tea would barely move the pH.  In most city water systems the pH is maintained at between 7 and 8 (neutral to slightly basic) to reduce corrosion in pipes.  I would think the deterioration of cloth colored with tea is probably due to factors other than acidity.  Interesting bit of trivia, the first khaki cloth was made by soaking white cotton cloth in tea, at least that is what I have read.

Edited by grsjax

My advice and comments are always worth what you paid for them.

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Dying before or after sewing: (whichever way of dying),

when you dye AFTER sewing: make sure your sewing yarns take the colour in the same way as the fabric does.

when you dye BEFORE sewing: make sure your dye does not  disappear by handling your sails during the process.

 

(yes: I learned the hard way :) )

 

Jan 

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Nature is complex and difficult to predict. You never know exactly what you have in terms of these organic acids, unless you did a chormatographic separation followed by mass-spectroscopy. I spent a signifcant proportion of my early professional life trying to model such systems … So you better avoid natural organics and go for something synthetic you know  ;) .

 

The colouring molecules in tea and coffee extract in reality come in various variants of different molecular weights. While the molecules themselves may be not so bad, they decompose, when you put energy, i.e. UV-light, into them and you never know what these decomposition product are like and do. Decomposing organic inks are a major problem in the preservation of old manuskripts.

 

Synthetic dyes have been developed for over a hundred years know and we have a certain body of experience with them in real time and from accelerated tests.

wefalck

 

panta rhei - Everything is in flux

 

 

M-et-M-72.jpg  Banner-AKHS-72.jpg  Banner-AAMM-72.jpg  ImagoOrbis-72.jpg
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If it were me, I would simply dye the material the color you want, then use the appropriate colored thread to sew with. Apparently the original Tanbark color was from a tree based preservative for cotton canvas sails to protect the material for mold,rot and mildew. Having tried the tea and coffee route I think you'd get better results from fabric dye such as RIT. Bill

Bill, in Idaho

Completed Mamoli Halifax and Billings Viking ship in 2015

Next  Model Shipways Syren

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I think some of those reading this are confused about what the word "tanbark" means. As mentioned above it is an old fashioned chemical treatment aimed at prolonging the life of the natural fiber sails, which had the effect of turning the sailcloth a distinctive bright red color. Getting back to the original question: Would the sail AND the materials used to make the sail all be the same color? I think it would depend on the size of the sail. I think it is possible the raw canvas was dyed in bulk then assembled into a sail later, and I think its also likely that entire completed sails were dyed after construction. Manmade dacron sailcloth is available in many colors for the modern sailmaker of today and in fact there are multiple shades of "tanbark" on the market, reflecting the fact that actual organic tanbark would fade throughout its life.

The people making the reproduction viking longship Drakon Harald have gone back to the old method on at least one of the sails and have dyed the hand woven linen sails they have made using the old fashioned reciie which calls for, as mentioned above, tree bark and ochre. I am including a photo of this sail and a modern dacron sail.

post-3035-0-14712000-1448811295_thumb.jpg

post-3035-0-93290100-1448811303_thumb.jpg

post-3035-0-45598500-1448811315_thumb.jpg

  

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As a person who has actually used dye on fabric, and who is not merely speculating but rather speaking from experience, I would advise against using commercial fabric dye. You will NEVER get the color you imagine. I have found that it IS possible to mix dye together but the result will likely not conform to your preconceived notions of the results of mixing two dyes. The chemistry of the dye does not conform to the chemistry of paint.

So I would recommend Acrylic paint, as mentioned above. You can stain most fabrics with diluted acrylic pain OR you can simply paint a coat of Acrylic over the fabric and achieve the color you want. The color of Acrylic paint you have on your palette WILL be the color you will get on the fabric. Using the dye, you will get SOME SORT of color, and it will be fixed to the fabric in a way that resists repeated washings, but it will not be a color you can predict or control.

  

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 Niagara USS Constitution 

 

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I actually find fabric, except perhaps for what is 'silkspan', unsuitable for model sails, except in very large scales. One can indeed hide some of the overscale coarseness by filling the fabric with paint, at the expense of loosing the transparency of real fabric. In the past I have used casein paints and since acrylics became available these. Acrylics have the advantage of staying flexible, so that the sails can be draped within limits.

 

I am rather surprised that the 'tanning' process should result in a 'bright red' colour as mentioned above. From what I have seen in museums and other places, the bark solution is a dark brown, resulting in a reddish brown tint, once the sails have been boiled in it. In the traditional process the sail then would be smeared with a mixture of tallow and ochre. There are many different shades of ochre (which is an iron-oxyhydroxide), ranging from a rather bright yellow to a dark rust-brown. Heating the ochre will change its colour due to the loss of crystal water, for instance. I suspect, that some other dye has been added to achieve a bright red colour.

 

Below is a tanned sail from botters in the Zuiderzeemuseum in Enkhuizen (NL)

 

090914-72.jpg

 

 

090336-72.jpg

 

And my own interpretation of a botter sail in 1:90 scale, made from individual paper 'sail cloths' and painted in acrylics:

 

BotterModel-136.jpg

 

The actual colours, of course, are not reproduced exactly as the eye may see it due to different colours of light etc.

wefalck

 

panta rhei - Everything is in flux

 

 

M-et-M-72.jpg  Banner-AKHS-72.jpg  Banner-AAMM-72.jpg  ImagoOrbis-72.jpg
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Wouldn't the color be a huge variable depending on the type of tree used for the bark?  Perhaps even the individual methods of the dyer also influence this?  I'm asking as I'm curious.

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

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Here are four modern versions from the internet.  You can see there is a lot of variation, and that the quality of the light makes a huge difference.

 

post-17589-0-61893200-1448829817.jpg

 

post-17589-0-62239100-1448829845.jpg

 

post-17589-0-77223200-1448829864.jpg

 

post-17589-0-68698500-1448829885.jpg

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