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About Talos

  • Birthday 01/20/1987

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  1. Aww, thanks. Year is still young though! Hopefully we can keep at it. I think threads like this have been good for scholarship of antebellum US Navy ships in general. I know I've learned a lot in it. I was thinking of Constitution's modern stern and that flattened arch on it again. Such a weird shape. Looking through plans in Chapelle, I noticed it popping up in a bunch of proposed smaller ships in the early 1830s, as well as the Boxers and possibly Peacock's rebuild as well.
  2. From Futtock to Top

    On the real ships, there is usually a hole up through the top called a "lubber's hole" that no self-respecting sailor would use. Instead they climb out on shrouds that extend outwards to the edge of the top (yes, with their backs pointing down at the sea), and hoist themselves up.
  3. Yep, that too! I wanted to see how it looked complete, so I threw the fullsize TIFF of the stern drawing into Photoshop. I hadn't notice the arrows the eagle is standing on. Also here is Chapelle's take on Wasp/Hornet as well for comparison.
  4. I'm inclined to agree with you on both parts. With the latter, probably the only reason this survived is Latrobe probably had it in his personal files when he relocated to Pittsburgh before DC was burned, and after that it was kept with the other Architect of the Capital files instead of being sent to the naval archives. The wartime classes were probably a lot plainer, but still decorated. The plans we have for Wasp/Hornet are already more detailed than most, both in hull and spars. Now you add this on top along with Hornet's figurehead and tail-boards...
  5. Glad you like the view! There were 17 states in 1811 since Ohio entered the union in 1803. That didn't last long, as Louisiana became a state in 1812. From the catalog entry: Inscriptions on recto: "Design for the Stern of the Sloop of War Hornet" "History" "Young" "Apollo" " Knowledge" "Cloathes." On the smaller, but zoomed-in scan, you can see the original locations of the stars easier, as well as some penciled in detail on the panel next to the eagle (look at that 3d eagle's head!). http://www.loc.gov/pictures/resource/cph.3a05394/
  6. You'll notice in the drawing of Hornet's stern, there is a pair of columns from the US Capitol Building above it. Dated 1811 and it looks like it was held in the files of the Architect of the Capitol and transferred to the LoC later on. Re: the model, hmm, yeah, Essex is always a possibility. I was thinking the same about the bank too. Another random shot I found, a USN seaplane next to the 74-gun USS Granite State (ex-New Hampshire), along with the steam yacht USS Wasp (a training ship by this point). http://cdn.loc.gov/service/pnp/ggbain/20200/20238v.jpg With USS United States, I'm also reminded of these two http://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/2012645377/ https://ussconstitutionmuseum.org/2016/06/14/federal-frigate-early-views-united-states/
  7. I found those on the Library of Congress' website, under "Sloop Hornet". The entry here lists Benjamin Lathrobe as the architect for it. Here is the entry. You can download a higher resolution TIFF there. http://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/95860806/ I also found this model frigate held by a Seamen's Bank in New York City. Dunno what she's supposed to be. Too many ports to be HMS Cyane or USS Boston. Could be New York? The half-built-up bulwarks are interesting. EDIT: Here is the link. Could be British of course, but... https://www.loc.gov/item/gsc1994004940/PP/ 5a23235u.tif
  8. It's not one of the frigates that we were talking about earlier, but I ran into this nice drawing of Hornet's stern carvings just now.
  9. Yeah, he did. It's weird. I made this crop of the stern a while ago to illustrate something here and it still fits to repost.
  10. Though not necessarily America, there is the proposed 74-gun ship of 1777, which might help, at least a starting point/inspiration. Good luck, frolick! Stay safe!
  11. I would start with checking the book to see who painted it, title, etc and get in touch with the Maryland Historical Society listed there and see if they can help.
  12. They had some issues of their own, namely trying to go cheap and wedge an 1830s sloop in the dimensions and tonnage of a War of 1812-sized one. Among other things, they tried to cram more people, more boats, more spars, more supplies, etc and left the design overloaded. Not the fastest ships in the end (a problem with the Boston-class sloops too, not solved until Cyane and then Saratoga), but capable of a going at a good clip when well-handled and good, solid sailors. They were also cheap to operate, and being full ship-rigs they made good sail training vessels. One issue they did have was the very weak armament. Chapelle points out that multiple European brig-sloops carried more firepower than these US ship-sloops. Worked out in the end though. They did a lot of yeoman work in the Pacific Squadron, among others, from Brazil to the Pacific Northwest.
  13. I'm interested in the Dale-class, so I have a hard copy of the USS Decatur book. It's an interesting one, though an operational text and not a technological one. I've had the Dale redrawn from Chapelle's drawing for a while now and added a spar deck based on photography of the surviving ship.
  14. I imagine the 1874 stern is at least similar to the Civil War-era stern. A timeline from the Constitution Museum guesses the stern was rebuilt in the 1858-1860 refit to a school ship. Thinking about it, Guerriere's stern would look very different from Constitution because of the round instead of flattened arch molding, which you can see in the above plans and Potomac's on the previous page too. Just a decorative difference, but an interesting one on those ships. It would fit in with the mid-century rebuild timeline. EDIT: Another difference between the 1860s, 1870s, and 1880s Constitution is the waist was still open previously, but in this 1881 picture of Connie after she was decommissioned, you can see it's now planked in. In the 1860s the planking was different and stood out from the rest of the hull. https://ussconstitutionmuseum.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/BierdstadtDec1881USSCM1469-1-1024x757.jpg By her early 20th century refits, it's no longer completely flush and there's a distinct boundary down at the deck level. https://www.navalhistory.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/constitution.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ac/5c/c7/ac5cc7fdddb7fc9c1f7df79bd1106f31.jpg They've been taken out in this picture during her 1907 rebuild. https://www.history.navy.mil/content/history/nhhc/our-collections/photography/numerical-list-of-images/nhhc-series/nh-series/NH-63000/nh-63532-uss-constitution/_jcr_content/mediaitem/image.img.jpg/1477654575701.jpg They've been taken out in this 1920s pic. https://www.history.navy.mil/content/history/nhhc/our-collections/photography/alphabetical---donations0/g/nhf-001-admiral-albert-gleaves-collection/_jcr_content/mediaitem/image.img.jpg/1502893586011.jpg They seem to go back and forth a lot....
  15. A bit different, but clearly taken from the same inspiration. I was just looking at the stern photograph from the 1874 refit and an internal profile of her modern stern, and compared them to Guerriere's and the Royal Navy's "as captured" arrangement drawing of President. Some things I noticed were the framing differences between the three and the modern stern has framing more like Guerriere's. It also isn't as docked-short and snub-nosed as Guerriere's, but doesn't tilt or have as much overhang as President's. Instead it looks like Guerriere's but tilted more. Looking at the ports, I notice that the spar deck ports look roughly like Guerriere's, but the gun deck ports are the same size as the broadside ports and spaced closer together, putting them out of line with the three spar deck ports. It's weird, almost like two stern designs plastered on top of each other. And you're right, it /does/ look like a five-window stern that way. It's really noticable with the quarter galleries removed in the refit picture. Interesting similiarities and differences. Easy to see the Navy's policy of updating older ships to modern standards though, especially with Constitution being used in active duty well into the Antebellum Period. http://captainsclerk.info/archives/visual/restoration and apprentice training/Image124.gif https://ussconstitutionmuseum.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Diag-Riders-Model-1024x290.jpg