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About Talos

  • Birthday 01/20/1987

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  1. I've always liked the design for Boston. Cute little frigate. The plans were probably still in the possession of the original builders at the time since it was a subscription ship.
  2. Talos

    Brig USS Enterprise 1799 info gathering

    So I finally found the booklet William James commented on in his Naval Occurrences book. Unfortunately, it was up for auction last year. http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/lot.76.html/2017/books-manuscripts-americana-n09657 (6) Manuscript booklet “Dimensions American Ships,” including the Chesapeake, President, Constitution, New York, Adams, and Enterprise, approx. 55 pages with very detailed description of dimensions of hulls, masts, sails, etc., annotated “found in Chesapeake” in pencil on front cover, paper wrappers (4 x 6 3/8 in.; 102 x 163 mm). One of the preview images in the auction is a page of Constitution's spar dimensions.
  3. Thanks, Charlie. Some of these get posted on my naval thread on Baen's Bar, others get posted in the naval subforum on Civil War Talk (where frolick also posts) like the Plymouth ironclad. This is the first place I've posted the Burrows pics, however. The major reason Plymouth never ended up converted is they ran out of time and she was too deep to make it up the James River when the North recaptured Gosport. https://civilwartalk.com/threads/uss-plymouth.144001/
  4. I have not posted in this thread in a while, I started my master's degree program in the spring, and it has been eating up a lot of my free time. I have mentioned the brig Burrows several times before, and it still stands out to me. A beautiful, never-built brig of larger than average size and armed with around 14 guns, either 32-pounder carronades or 27 hundredweight 32-pounder cannons. It was designed by Richard Powell, assistant to John Lenthall. I was struck by the resemblance to Lenthall’s ship-sloop Germantown, so I stuck the two together, and it is very apparent. Above the waterline, the two ships are very similar. Similar bows, stern is the same shape, fore- and mainmasts are in almost the same locations, even the boarding ladder. I know US brigs normally didn’t have quarter galleries, but this one was huge, just slightly smaller than the Boston-class ship-sloops. I copied Germantown’s onto Burrows, and they fit perfectly like they meant to be there. All I had to do to tweak it was shorten the top part of the quarter gallery a bit to fit Burrows’ smaller hammock rails. I also included a drawing with her rig. I have a comparison of lines too, but I need to go back and work on it more so I will post it another time. Burrows LBP: 126'0" Beam (Molded): 30'0" Depth in Hold: 14'0" Germantown LBP: 150'0" Beam (Molded): 36'0" Depth in Hold: 16'8" This is another drawing I did for a prompt over on Civil War Talk. The sloop Plymouth was captured at Gosport Naval Yard by advancing Confederate forces (along with Germantown). There was a proposal to convert her into an ironclad, which fell through. I combined a proposed Confederate ironclad casemate design with Plymouth’s hull. I also included the armament, two 7-inch Brooke Rifles, two 6.4-inch Brooke Rifles, four IX-inch Dahlgren smoothbores, and a pair of boat howitzers. I did up several gun drawings as well, including the top view of Plymouth’s 7-inch rifles on pivot carriages, a new Marsilly carriage for the old IX-inch Dahlgren I drew. I also drew a British 64-pounder MLR of 64cwt and a British truck carriage for it. I did a drawing of Plymouth’s gundeck based on a combination of a plan In Canney’s Sailing Warships book, and a Library of Congress plan of Plymouth’s great cabin. I plan to use this on another forum to illustrate some armament and layout concepts, but right now it is armed with a mix of 32-pounders and 8” shell guns. I’m also including a larger copy of the two guns and their truck carriages.
  5. Talos

    Brig USS Enterprise 1799 info gathering

    Thanks, that's more than enough to work with.
  6. Talos

    Brig USS Enterprise 1799 info gathering

    Charlie, do you have a higher-res scan of Salvini A like you did with B? I think I'd like to fiddle with it some.
  7. Talos

    Brig USS Enterprise 1799 info gathering

    Interesting timing bringing this topic back up. Thanks to a power outage last night due to Hurricane Michael, I just finished Intrepid Sailors: The Legacy of Preble's Boys and the Tripoli Campaign by Chipp Reid last night. Enterprise features prominently in the book so the little schooner has been on my mind again. Hmmm.
  8. Indeed, the Cruizer-class brig-sloop and even the tiny Archer-class gunbrig both have capstans at least, otherwise even the smallest vessel should have a windlass at least.
  9. Not sure if it will have hull lines, but you'll want to get this book. I have the other books in the series and they're spectacular. https://www.amazon.com/French-Battleships-World-War-One/dp/1591146399
  10. Talos

    Rigging Civil War Naval Guns

    Pretty much rigged the same as it had been before. The biggest shift in broadside guns (besides the newer guns themselves) was the shift from the old-style four-wheel truck carriage to the two-wheeled Marsilly carriage before the war. This design meant they could shove a wheeled handspike under the rear of the gun and easily rotate even a big gun like a large Dahlgren from side to side in the port or even move it from one side of the ship like the other. They could also be mounted on pivot carriages as well of course. Here is a great shot of a Dahlgren in a Marsilly carriage, this one mounted on the deck of USS Hunchback, a converted ferry. The older-style truck carriage was still around too though, as seen here on the USS Thomas Freeborn. There are plenty of photographs, drawings, gunnery manuals, and ordnance instructions from the period. Certainly enough to know for sure.
  11. Talos

    Cut down / Razeed ships

    Indeed. Independence, the worst of the first generation American '74s, was said to be totally useless at sea because her lower gunports were only 3'10" from the water amidship when fully loaded with cannons, ammunition, and six months of provisions. There's zero way Victory was less than a foot higher than this when launched empty! Independence /did/ have to sail with her lower ports caulked shut during her time overseas too, Victory never had to. For something of the size of a frigate or ship of the line, water coming in over the bow wasn't a major issue. It was for the small open-decked sloops and brigs however. Indeed, the Cherokee-class brigs were often likened to a rock at half-tide because the water kept coming onto the deck in any kind of weather. There were attempts to rectify it, including the Cherokees having a slight upwards kink at the bow, and other sloops like the Cruizers adding in a forecastle platform both to cut down on the water coming in over the deck as well as provide a better area for the sail handlers to work from (and I presume better for handling the anchors too). That's why you'll see plenty of sloops with a forecastle but no quarterdeck. One of the modifications to the Cherokee-class HMS Beagle when she was refit into an exploration ship was to install a low forecastle platform specifically to cut down on the water coming in over the bow. It was only a few feet above deck level, so useless for doing much under it.
  12. Talos

    Cut down / Razeed ships

    I'm not sure. It's from the collection of the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich and only described in generic terms, the only other info is that it's from the late 18th century (I'd say into the early 19th century even), which fits the fittings, the mizzen spanker, and lack of forecastle bulwarks. http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/112664.html I did notice the sweep ports between the gunports, which are rarely seen in depictions of frigates this large and this late.
  13. Talos

    Cut down / Razeed ships

    He specifically asked about three-deckers cut down to two-deckers, not two-deckers cut down to frigates. Now there were proposals to cut down Pennsylvania into a two-decker. In an 1845 pamphlet called "The Big Guns" by a guy with a total 68-pdr fetish, he proposed cutting down Pennsylvania to a 100-gun 68-pdr ship with a double broadside of 6800 pounds, compared to 140 32-pdrs equal to 4480 pounds. He also proposed replacing the armament of the other ships, 60 guns in the 74s, 30 guns in the large frigates, 18 guns in the razee sloops, 14 in the large sloops, 12 and 10 in the smaller sloops, etc, etc. Doesn't specify if it's the 63cwt Paixhans gun or more like the British 68-pdr of 95cwt (the US Navy has their own version of this, the 64-pounder shot gun of 106cwt). He also advocated building 60-gun two-decker frigates displacing 2600 tons, and 30-gun sloops displacing 1300 tons. https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=yK1WAAAAcAAJ A foot is way too low to the water. Even Vasa had more! Victory had over four feet, one foot would mean the lower gundeck itself would be below the waterline (it's about two feet below the lower sill of the gunport). Waists were covered up by canvas all the way back to Elizabethan times (1500s). Though not filled in, you can see the waist racks for the hammocks that would be covered in canvas in the center of this frigate painting from the 1700s. There were lifelines sailors could rig to help stay on deck as well.
  14. Talos

    Cut down / Razeed ships

    There are also the five broadened Caledonia-class 1st rates that were cut down to 89 gun two-deckers when they were converted into screw steamers in 1858. HMS Neptune HMS Trafalgar HMS Saint George HMS Waterloo HMS Royal William (never commissioned as a steamer, but was converted) HMS London got the same, cut down from a 120-gun first rate to an 89-gun steamer. HMS Royal Frederick of the Queen-class was as well. HMS Prince Regent (converted to a 92-gun sailing ship in the 1840s) HMS Boyne (cut down to a 76-gun third rate in the 1820s) HMS Ocean (cut down to an 80-gun third rate in 1820) HMS Windsor Castle (cut down to 74 in 1813) HMS Atlas (cut down to 74 in 1802)
  15. But an important name! And above the waterline apparently not too far apart from the evolved form of the original ship, as de Kay comments in his "Chronicles of the Frigate Macedonian" about an older British gentleman living in the US who came aboard the ship during a port call on her first commission. He had been a sailor on the original British ship under John Carden and stayed in the US after his capture by Decatur. He told the American sailors stories about his service on her, pointed out his duty station, etc. The more I look at it, the more I think that she wasn't built to the original ship's dimensions but instead built to the standard US 2nd class frigate dimensions of the time, eg: Congress and Constellation. She was rated and armed exactly as Constellation was anyway and they are only a foot apart in beam and /six inches/ apart in length. They were fairly close to the original ship's dimensions anyway, so not a huge difference. It makes sense that they would build to their class standards instead of arbitrarily making one eight to ten feet shorter just to match the older vessel. No one's going to notice that it's different, it's not like they upscaled her to a 1st class frigate. What's more interesting to me is everyone I've read (Chapelle, etc) comments that the change in dimensions was because she had longer, narrower clipper-style ends for speed, but looking at the lines compared to each other... Interestingly, Constellation's replacement was built to the dimensions of a razee frigate...Cumberland in this case, except a lot narrower (five feet less beam, just about the same length). She was just a purpose-built, lighter, more optimized version of it. Had she been a true razee or kept to the original's dimensions, she would have been the exact same dimensions as Macedonian instead of being twelve feet longer. It reminds me that I was recently going through the length/width ratios of the American ships of that era, looking at proportions and trying to figure out a sweet spot for a 3rd class frigate (as mentioned below). Jamestown stuck out at me. Three inches narrower than Saratoga, but 17 feet longer (163 feet to 146.3 feet). Highest ratio I found in the American ships I was looking at (pretty much all the frigates ever, plus the post-war 1st and 2nd class ship-sloops). There's some similarities in basic hull forms, of course, but pretty different. Designed by the same guy in roughly the same time period. Definitely a more modern hullform compared to the earlier 1st class frigate designs though, but an evolution instead of a huge difference. Congress is also the 1st class to Macedonian's 2nd class. I've had a mind to come up with my own design for a 3rd class frigate equivalent too, a follow-on to ships like Boston just for fun.

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