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Deperdussin1910

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  1. Steven, thank you for bringing that Build Log to my attention. By the late 16thc., I agree that the spur was angled to be more a bridge than a ram. Among the frustrations in building this RC model, is it's dual propulsion...oar and sail. Can I fit both inside and have both working? I think I should make it sailing first and retrofit rowing mechanics by saving room for it. I've made my first attempt at the lines. I have little confidence they are right. What I'll do is make a keel with light test frames. I'll tack on stringers and play with the frame positions and shapes until I'm happy or frustrated to the point of calling it 'good enough'. I've always been a 'rack of eye' scale builder knowing most early vessels were rarely documented and builders often made 'adjustments'. Specs: 115' x 17' x 6.5' with a ratio of 6.76:1 in 1/24 scale is 57.5" x 8.5" x 3.25" or a model that is stem to stern 4'9" plus bowsprit/spur. This should be a galley with 32 oars or 64 rowers. With additional warriors, this galley should hold "a hundred good shots" aboard as captured in 1601.
  2. More evidence of Spanish/Barbary influence... -In re-reading my notes, I found an Irish lecturer using these words about Grace O'Malley. She had "numerous encounters with Barbary Pirates". -A new reference shows that one of those "encounters" was long-standing.... "It is said that Grace O’Malley and her ally Don Bosco –who may have had a fortress on Port Island before Cromwell – used to stretch a chain boom across the harbour to trap and loot ships with valuable cargo." I did not know who Don Bosco was. It turns out that he is... "Don Alonzo Bosco was a 16th-century Barbary corsair or Spanish pirate who, according to folk tradition on Inishbofin, Galway, settled on the island in the 16th century and built a castle where a Cromwellian-era ruined castle now stands. From there, he raided the mainland and passing ships. He became an ally of Gráinne Ní Mháille (Grace). Together they prevented unwanted intruders from entering the surrounding waters, or they used the natural harbour as a trap to attack and loot those ships with valuable cargo on board. They succeeded by stretching a chain boom across the harbour entrance from the castle at the harbour to Scealp na gCat at the opposite end. His ultimate fate is unknown." This island is well with-in "O'Malley" waters. Don Bosco could not have existed there without Grace's permission. Probably, a mutually profitable relationship as mentioned with the chain boom. Importantly, this highlights her Atlantic/Mediterranean influences in actions and probably her vessel use. Maybe it's me. But if you stare at Mirabell61's chebec picture long enough, you can see a Northern Atlantic/Celtic/Viking mid-ship and high bow. Or, do I need new glasses? I'm still working on a possible design...
  3. Backer, thank you for your informative response. Another historical reminder of the power of imported technology. FYI, I enjoyed living near Tervuren for a few years. Steven, the beam question is important to me because this will be a working RC model. I can't just have it sail downwind. I'll need it to be able to sail upwind to come back to me. I'll have a detachable false keel and expanded rudder to combat the "scale effect" of non-scale wind and water conditions. I've been thinking about ratios... A comparison of galley beam ratios: 1450 Venetian 164’ x 20’ 8.2:1 1581 Lepanto 136’ x 18’ 7.5:1 1700s Chapman 114.5 x 16 6.7:1 Galleys getting shorter and beamier. But, I only have a few examples with dimensions.
  4. Steven, my research lines up with your thoughts that a North Atlantic galley would be more robust. I particularly think they would have a higher bow, more sheer, and a single bank of oars...maybe broader beam as well. My information on operations lines up with what you already know. I'm still uncertain of the number of masts...one or two. A single sail on a higher mast would have a higher center-of-effort would create more heel on a narrow beam galley. Two masts would have sails with lower center-of-efforts for a narrow beam galley. I'm still waiting for a response from THE historian on Grace O'Malley, Anne Chambers. Interestingly, a recent promotion of her efforts shows a vessel with two masts with lateen sails which looks like a 17th c. Dalmatia model I found on the web. Roger, you bring up an interesting question. When did the transition occur from lapstrake to carvel on the west coast of Ireland? I contend that this clan had early and longer exposure to Mediterranean practices then most clans and certainly those that stayed on the Irish sea. Could or would they have tried to use lapstrake skin on a Mediterranean design? This is the clan, fighting to keep the Celtic world alive, that went against tradition by following a female chieftain. -Since I have several references to Grace exposure to ‘Barbary Pirates’ , I wanted to learn how they operated their galleys for information on how Grace may have used hers… -The attacking ship’s captain would aim to ram the victim, so that the fighters could swarm aboard from the raised prow. (this is the main reason for the high prow…faster boarding of enemy vessels. -The long boarding prow was called a spur…(Irish Galleys) were probably similar but simpler… to (xebecs) -The Barbary slave galleys were enclosed at the stern to provide shelter for the company of Janissaries who formed the ship’s fighting force. (Here is a clear advantage that Grace had…her free oarsmen were also fighters…a massive increase to her fighting power….this is noted in other sources). -Galleys relied on speed for their success, and this was impossible without frequent careening. The galley would be beached, and laboriously scraped to remove the coating of barnacles and weed that adhered below the water-line. A coating of wax helped it to slip smoothly through the water. Careening had to be repeated every two months or so. -Lateen sail(s) propelled the galley when there was enough wind, but it was the oarsmen who provided the power in a chase, when sailing into the wind, or on a calm day. (So as I thought, the sail(s) were used as much as possible to save the strength of the rowers for a chase...especially if your free Irish rowers are also part of your fighting force.) -The Knight’s (of Malta starting in the 1530s) galleys had a legendary reputation for speed and maneuverability; they could sail very close to the wind, and their 3-foot (1 meter) draught allowed them to pursue their quarry in the shallowest water. (Grace would need a vessel with these qualities as her galleys sailed the bays and inlets of the western coast of Ireland. -In the era of the galley, there seems to have been a fairly consistent approach to pursuit and capture. As the pirates closed in on their victims, they would fire the canon at the bows(and the crew makes fearsome noises), but more by way of a warning than for the destructive power of the ball.(I've found no records of her galleys using cannon and I think she would not have wanted to row the additional weight for the minimal impact). At this point, I'm still leaning toward a plain galley with two sails that has a raised prow and a covered stern house. I'm still waiting on an important email response that would be influential to my build. More research to come...
  5. Roger, Thank you for your book suggestions. Druxey, you have sharp eyes. I had not noticed those lines as field divisions. Mark, not a dumb question at all. I believe she would have used any technology or vessel that would have been to her benefit. Capturing vessels was not her primary purpose. The clan was involved with trade, fishing, ferrying, and taking. Their prizes would likely have been Spanish and English trading vessels…maybe like the Newport Ship. I agree that the design of her vessels would not have been static. I think I’m interested in portraying her at the 1559 reference point where she had vessels that could carry 300 warriors...a mixture of free clansmen rowers and warriors. That would have been a significant size craft. That would also help me build it in my preferred RC scale of 1/24. Bob, Thank you for your response. For 2000 years, the O’Malley clan is mentioned in connection with the sea..mainly as traders. Unlike Somali pirates, long sea voyages had been a part of this activity. They traveled around Ireland, Scotland, England, and Northern Europe. Traditionally, they took 30-40 vessels at a time filled with wool and cereal (oats/barley/wheat) to Portugal and Spain. Their sailing took them out of the isolation you mentioned. And in the time of Grace O’Malley, even Galway City had 600 vessels a year in their port. For generations, the O’Malley’s imposed fines/tolls for transiting in their territorial waters. Grace took that to a whole new level during the total social trauma that was the English invasion. I feel, as need arose with the destruction of her lands by the English, she stepped-up her maritime takes. As to the size of the vessel, the English State Papers mention her vessels as carrying 300 warriors a piece in 1559 and 100 warriors in 1601. Trees were sacred to the ancient Celts. Brehon Law even protected certain trees and shrubs. In the 1500s, they still had massive forests. But by the 19th century, Ireland only had about 1% of her massive pine and oak forests because of the pressure of Industrialization, the Plantation Policy, and Population Growth. I do admire the skin-on-frame construction. My last RC model was of St. Brendan’s 6th century curragh. See photos of her partially framed, tubes stabilized to handle weighted false keel, and her sailing JUST above a beam reach. More research to come...
  6. Louie, thank you for your reply. The likes of which is why I began to post here. I enjoy reading of your galley efforts. This subject has really pushed me into new areas of interest. This O'Malley clan was one of the few maritime clans of Ireland. For centuries, they traded with Spain and Portugal. I feel they would have been influenced by the maritime technology coming out of the Mediterranean. And as you noted, the Venetian galleys were trading in Flanders and England. But, what maritime technology would the O'Malley clan adopt during the centuries of trading and raiding? I'm lacking the academic term for it. But, human nature suggests that if they saw a better tool, they'd use it. More research... -What type of hull construction would the O’Malley galley vessel likely have? A typical Irish galley used for trading would have been clinker built similar to the most historically popular Viking long ships. But, Grace’s maritime influences were far wider. From the RTE Archives Ireland's National Television and Radio Broadcaster, a1976 broadcast (like other sources) mentions the O’Malley's sailed galleys, lived by raiding merchant shipping, probably copied from like those of Spain, fast mobile ships, outmaneuver their prey, and that they were successful and dreaded. …a solid vote for Spanish influence which would not have a clinker hull. - As to the size of the vessel…During the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, Genoa, Venice, and France maintained fleets powered by 25 three-man oars to a side and, later, five-man oars. Such ships might have a displacement of 200 tons and be approximately 164′ × 20′ in size. These were large enough to have cannons mounted on a platform at the bow. I’ve found no record that Grace’s galleys had cannon but this does give a good approximation of the size less the need for cannon. - As to the sail shape…Some of the images show triangular sails that could also be lug sails. The lug sail was one of the earliest fore-and-aft rigs. The lug sail is considered an intermediate step between the square sail and the lateen sail, The lug developed in north Europe, most probably evolving directly from the square sail. In fact, many early lugs were nearly square. This could account for the images which look like square sails but are really lugs. Lugs are useful in beach boats when rigs (and masts) need to be dropped. These galleys were used off the beach. And, the O’Malley’s had large crews to quickly down rig to lower their profile when hiding from a superior force. The lug rig was widely used in Europe from the seventeenth through the nineteenth centuries for small fishing vessels and other coasters because of their good performance to windward. This popularity extended to smugglers and privateers. Before the lug was widely used, could Grace have been using it? If the O’Malley galleys probably had triangular shape sails, either lateen or lug, there is a curious modern connection called the Achill yawls of county Mayo. (In Ireland, yawl means a boat over 18 feet, anything shorter is a punt.) They have a short-luffed, triangular, almost lateen shaped dipping lug which has been favored for small working boats on the south and west coasts of Ireland. And, these early yawls were double-enders which are a favorable hull shapes for beach boats. Could these be the descendants of Grace’s galleys? -As to the number of masts, by the late 15th century, the standard merchant hull size became large enough to efficiently carry two or three masts with lateen sails. There was quite a transformation in ship design going from the cog, to the carvel, and finally to the carrack. The O’Malleys would have been exposed to all this as traders with Portugal and Spain. Given the size of crews that Grace was able to employ. I see it likely that their long hulls would have demanded multiple masts to drive them. -There is also a ‘Barbary Pirates’ possible influence to what craft the O’Malley clan vessels rowed and sailed. First, these pirates were contemporaries. Their predation extended throughout the Mediterranean, south along West Africa's Atlantic seaboard and into the North Atlantic as far north as Iceland. Their galleys, called xebecs, had high bows and sterns to handle rough water. In 1830 the French took the lines off a captured Algerian xebec which has a much plainer constructions than the ornate versions shown in most paintings. Shortly after Grace’s death in 1631, Barbary Pirates invaded the harbor village of “…Baltimore, County Cork, captured almost all the villagers and took them away to a life of slavery in North Africa.” There is even a direct link to Grace’s galley being attacked by Barbary Pirates shortly after one of her pregnancies. Long after Europeans had abandoned oar-driven vessels in favor of sailing ships carrying tons of powerful cannon, many Barbary warships were galleys carrying a hundred or more fighting men armed with cutlasses and small arms. This was Grace’s way of warfare. It’s likely she would have adopted any of their methods or technology for her advantage. -An esteemed maritime source is Fredrik Henrik af Chapman’s Architectura Navalis Mercatoria. In this, he shows a galley of 16 pairs of oars, with two men on every oar, rigged with lateen sails. Her length stem to stern is 114′ 6″; Beam is 17’0″; Draft is 6’3″. This length could have carried the size crews that Grace commanded. The vessel has a higher bow for northern waters than the lower style Mediterranean bows and two masts to drive the hull. Could Grace have commanded similar versions without the ornamentation of a state-owned craft? -In review, a general description of the galley reads as, “The galley’s size, structure, and oar-based propulsion varied from one country’s fleet to another, but they all shared certain characteristics. All had hulls about 136 feet long by about 17 or 18 feet wide topped by an outrigger assembly. They were deceptively long and light, and they were capable of transporting large numbers of soldiers, who could be rapidly disembarked to storm a fortress or engage an enemy force.” This is an excellent description of Grace’s gallowglass carrying trade. One of the traditional jobs of the O'Malley clans was to ferry Scotish warriors to other Irish clans who hired them as mercenaries. The Chapman’s galley 16 pairs of oars may be the closest ship plan I can find. ...more to come
  7. Your name is much more "aero" than "nautical".  Fan of the pioneer flyers as well?  We have a Deperdussin racer here in the collection at Old Rhinebeck where I am based.

    1. Deperdussin1910

      Deperdussin1910

      Yes, I am a fan of Armand Deperdussin.  A story worthy of a major motion picture.  A visit to Old Rhinebeck has been on my "Bucket List".  Cheers.

  8. Research on what type of galley: It is a challenge determining which full size vessel to model. No archeological remains have been found which would enable a detailed reconstruction of the Irish galley in question. So, I need to determine the most logical choice of vessel given my level of research. There will be no absolute correct choice until they un-earth an O’Malley galley. -There is no shortage of information about galleys used in the Mediterranean during the Greek and Roman empires. These are well before the late 1500s that I’m researching. It is harder to find information outside the Med. However, there were two very important naval battles that can shed some information. The 1571 Battle of Lepanto and the 1588 Armada show galleys with triangular sails. Countering this is a 1588 minted English Armadian medal depicting a single square sail on a Spanish galley. Is this just artistic license? -The battle of Lepanto was fought in the Med. and the Armada was fought in the English channel. This shows that galleys were used outside of the Med. Importantly, galleys where still used into the early 19th century in the Baltic. This shows that given the right coastal conditions, they could still be an effective fighting force. -Which type of sailing rig would have been used: square sail, lug sail, or triangular/ lateen sails? It’s generally considered that fore-and-aft sails are more maneuverable in-shore than square sails. Grace O’Malley used the islands, bays, and coves, of Western Ireland to her advantage. Would she have been sailing these waters or rowing? Importantly, here crews were free clansmen and not chained galley slaves. I think she would have kept the strength of her oarsmen until the last rush towards an enemy and for fighting. So, a more maneuverable fore-and-aft sails is likely. -For hundreds of years, the O'Malley clan traded with Spain and Portugal. This would have given them an extensive exposure to Mediterranean craft of the leading maritime powers. For clan strength, they probably incorporated any Mediterranean design that would have given them a trading or raiding advantage. -The Clare Island Abbey where Grace O’Malley is reported to be buried has a carved stone ship image which shows a high sided, single-mast (square-sail yard?) of a 12-oar vessel. All visual evidence must be weighed with written evidence because artists may have never seen the vessel they are depicting. And, this carving may have been created well after the death of Grace. -The best supporting evidence for the Clare Island carving is the recreation of a Scottish galley. The most surprising thing I found out about these vessels is that "Celtic Berlinn Nyvaigs (Scotish Galley) preceded Viking longboats, not the other way around". The recreation vessel built and sailed in the 1990s is called the galley Aileach which has a single mast and carries a square sail. But, later research stated this design misleading in its short length (40’) and cramped rowing stations. In its favor, it does have a high sided bow to handle the rougher northern European waters. Along with, “Both Celtic & Nordic galleys could have two or three men on each oar so even a small galley could transport 40 to 50 warriors quickly…The larger galley could hold more than 100 warriors" This suggest that one could count crew by the number of oars, then double or triple that and then add a speculative number of transported warriors. -Some of Grace O’Malley’s struggle against the English is recorded in the written evidence of the English State Papers. For example in 1559, "There are three very good galleys with Tibbot ne Longe, sone to Grany O’Malley, his brother and O’Malley that will carry 300 men apiece…” This suggests a much larger vessel than the typical 8 to 12 oar vessels common at the time. And in July of 1601, the HMS Tramontana captured an O'Malley 30-oar galley with "a hundred good shots"...which suggests more than 100 aboard. The transporting of warriors was part of the O’Malley trading practice. …more research to come
  9. I usually scratch-build RC ship models of the 19thc. Recently, my interests changed to earlier time periods where I have little source material. So, I'm posting here for your help. I've read/viewed some great build logs here of earlier ship types. I hope my efforts may add to that interest. I'll begin to post my research that I need to do to determine what the model will look like. As far as I know, no plans exist of a of Irish Galley c.1580. Historical background: It’s hard to research Irish Maritime history for several reasons. At first glance, you’d think it wouldn’t be. It is an island. Of course, they’d be interested in the water and boats. But, that has not been the case. They are a culture that has been suppressed for over half a millennium. Since English King Henry VIII in the 1500s, Ireland has been under siege and then conquered by a policy called Surrender and Regrant. Later, there was the Plantation Policy by Queens Mary and Elizabeth I. Their language, customs, laws, and certainly history have altered to demoralize them through the filter of a conquered nation. Any state promotion of an anti-English history (which this model represents) was suppressed. And this in turn, lead to a perpetual rebellion against a corrupt authority. One of those rebelling clans was the O’Malley clan in western Ireland in the County of Mayo. In the 1500s and as it had been for many centuries, Western Ireland was the far west of western Europe. So far west, that it was not even conquered by the Romans or Vikings. This gave the Island a longer period of insolation to form their own customs than any other peoples of Europe. Ireland never had the unifying force of the Roman government and army. Various clans ruled and warred amongst themselves for limited control of limited parts of the Ireland. The O’Malley clan was one of those Western clans. They ruled over the baronies of Murrisk and Burishoole. They were somewhat unique in that their power came from a combination of warriors to control land and seafarers to trade and war on the sea. This gave them the ability to trade not only with other clans but also other lands. It’s recorded that they travelled to the ports of England, France, Spain and Portugal. Theirs was no small enterprise. English State Papers record O’Malley maritime activities from the mid-1200s to the early 1600s. Some of their vessels, oared galleys, were recorded to hold 300 warriors. That is a significant size vessel of the 16th century. The most famous of the O’Malley clan leaders, called chieftains, was a woman called Grace O’Malley. She lived from circa 1530 to 1603. It is her life I find the most interesting. Because she grew up when the old Irish customs were still in force in Ireland. But by the time she ruled and for the rest of her life, England was conquering Ireland clan by clan. Usually, it a was a process of the superior English power making deals by granting money and titles to those who would submit to them with the least effort. Often clan was pitted against clan with the backing of English power on one side. In the midst of this upheaval, Grace refused to submit her clan to this transition and warred on land and sea against the English. She is called in English State Papers as a “nurse of all rebellions”. The clan motto in Latin, a common language of the educated in the period, proclaims their importance with Terra Marique Potens. This means Powerful By Land and Sea. The vessel: It is stated many times that this clan used galleys or oared rowing craft. But, what type and how large? Surely a clan that was known for ‘piracy’ by the English were not using the same vessels for trade and warring. ...more next time.
  10. Deperdussin1910

    La Couronne by yancovitch - RADIO

    Yanc, you are the man! Well done! Another scratch-built wonder! I really enjoy the cannon smoke rolling out of the barrel.
  11. RC installation is my weakest element of this hobby. I'd suggest reading boat building threads on rcgroups.com. Notice to Mariners: Monitors are particularly hard to RC. They have a very shallow draft so there is little room for RC equipment. The flush mounted hatch needs to be water proof. There is so little deck hardware to grab to get the deck hatch off, I had to build up the officer and crew hatches. It takes a lot of internal ballast to achieve their designed low freeboard. With low freeboard, there is little steaming time between a leak and a sinking.
  12. Sometimes, a model falling off a shelf can be a good thing. I built a 1:48 scale USS Monitor hull 25 years ago. I wanted to build it because it was so different from the sailing ship hull shapes I was used to building. It was a fun challenge. I completed the hull and it sat on various shelves and moved with me many times. It seemed to fall at least once wherever I lived. After 25 years of this, I finally decided to either finish the model or throw it out. (That had not happened since the trauma of a childhood move where my parents said they'd not pay to box up all my models for a move...so they were thrown away ) So, I finished the model.
  13. Deperdussin1910

    Brigs Niagara and Lawrence

    Saw this last weekend at the Mariners Museum and thought the readers of this thread would like.
  14. Deperdussin1910

    The USS Princeton Incident

    This past weekend the Mariners Museum had their annual 'Battle of Hampton Roads'. Your excellent post of what happened in 1844 had long lasting effects for the US Navy and John Ericsson. First, they did not want Ericsson's brilliant input on naval technology that would put the US Navy at the forefront of the world's navies. When the Navy finally succumbed to the obvious and accepted the MONITOR design, they ordered her to go into battle firing half charges! Had the MONITOR fought with full charges, there would be no historical tactical vs strategic question today. Not the first or that last case of "Rules of Engagement" affecting outcomes.
  15. This paint thread reminded me of old discussions about the evolution of how colonial Williamsburg changed it's mind about "historically accurate" paint colors. Basically, they'd been focusing their color palate on faded paint chips. More scientific computer analysis brought in brighter colors and context to indoor and outdoor paints. More info here: http://makinghistorynow.com/2014/08/a-house-of-a-different-color/ Side bar: There is always the problem of some historic districts with large personalities in charge demanding strict adherence to certain colors. Until shown, those are inaccurate colors. Science is dead certain about something...until other science dis-proves it.

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