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Doug McKenzie

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  1. Folks, It's been a while since I've posted but I think I've pretty much exhausted my possible sources. I'd already mentioned that Lloyd's never classed Leon so they never surveyed her although Lloyd's register has a number of entries for her with some technical info as Russ has pointed out. Leon was classed with Det Norsk Veritas (DNV) - the classification society in Norway. Unfortunately A fellow there said that because she was a pretty standard little ship with no fame or notoriety he figured that DNV would not have any survey info (or any other info) archived . Apparently DNV only archive info on well known ships. The only remaining source that I'm aware of is Merseyside Maritime Museum where an outfit Martime Archives (I think) does most of their research but it is temporarily not available and there is no ready date so.... I think I'll just continue with using NRG MSW and other data. I just remembered I'm also trying to get DNV requirements in 1880. Thanks enormously for all the ideas and support. I'll be back\ Doug
  2. Tim, Thanks veru much for the fne photos. The detail on the houses and rigging is going to be helpful. Also, her pale appearance convinces me that I'm going to stain her hull!
  3. rtwpson2, I got the Brown, Son & Ferguson plans and used modern technology to double their size. That brought them up to 1:48. I used the plans direcly for my work but if I did it again I would modify them slightly to make sure that the body plan, sheer plan and deck plan were consistent. The quality of the plans is excellent. at the 1:96 scale that Underhill used for his model. Good luck, Dog
  4. John, Could you give me some examples. It could be a big help to me! Thanks, Doug
  5. Couldn't agree more, Russ. There are several irons in the fire for surveys and I even got a call from DNV this morning. Tomorrow morning he's going to get back to me with any information he can find.
  6. Nick, I refuse to accept any apology because this back and forth is so valuable regardless of what the endgame is. I am on retreat now and didn't bring Underhill but when I get home I will certainly read those passages carefully. One problem with Underhill is that he doesn't really address the interior at all except to say that the scantlings of the structural elements are too heavy. Unfortunately I didn't read that sentence until after all the frames and longitudinals were cut and installed. Thus I had to pare down the sides of the keelson to make it reasonable. The frames I left as Underhill specified! In any event, when I put all the info on this subject together I'll be sure to post it. Thanks again, Doug
  7. Nick, Your one sentence post is intriguing: First, I am unfamiliar with "a beam shelf with chocks" and an internet search didn't help - can you tell me what that arrangement is or give me a reference? Second, where on earth did you get such a piece of information? Where ever it comes from probably has more info too which I would love to tap into. Every detail about the interior that I have collected so far comes in the form of "most likely she had..." or "it was common practice in Scandinavia to ..." or "Of these 6 vessels similar to Leon, 4 used ..." I am currently trying to find classification surveys and reports on Leon to provide really specific info but so far have been unsuccessful Thanks very much for your doubly intriguing post! Doug
  8. Russ, I've got some more info also. Yes, the archives have moved back to Lloyd's where they are being digitized and will be available in January 2019. In my communications with Lloyd's they report finding the ship (I sent them a bunch of identifying info), however they never classed it and therefore they never surveyed her. They also report that she was classed with Det Norske Veritas and hence they would have surveyed her but who knows if the surveys are archived. I've written to DNV but have not heard from them. I've also written NMM asking if they have archived stuff from DNV and I've not heard from them either. Do you remember where you found the info about the January 1881 Lloyd's survey? I searched about 10 Lloyd's registers from 1880 til 1899 and none of them had any reference to Leon. Also this is my first blog experience and I wonder if followup communications like ours are generally done in the blog or in separate vehicle such as email? Thanks for you help on this Russ - the potential for a lot of very useful information from a survey is so high. Doug
  9. Roger, Russ, welfalck, I am blown away by the information that you guys know about and have access to. I will be following up on all your suggestions and , of course, I will try to get a copy of the 1881 survey. Thank you all so much! Doug PS I have already gone through a transition, from one level of quality of workmanship to a higher level, working on this model as a result of my recent contact with the Ship Model Society of New Jersey (USA). Now I am going through a similar transition regarding the quality of research. Thanks again.
  10. Another question about Brigantine Leon - 302 tons, built in 1880 in Norway I am trying to understand if she more likely had iron hanging knees or wooden. Crothers seems to indicate that by the end of the 1800s iron was in common use due to the lack of suitable lumber in America and yet Desmond shows only wooden knees in his photos and he was writing in 1918 to help train ship builders then. Furthering my confusion it seems that Scandinavia would have run out of good roots before America, suggesting that the use of iron would have occurred even sooner. I would sure appreciate any suggestions that folks have on this question including any other sources. Thanks, Doug
  11. John, Thanks for reminding me to photo the oil lantern. It's by GLX Scale Models. They use 3D printing. This one is 1:48 which apparently is O scale for railroads. It's 1/4" tall so 12" full scale. It comes with a very tiny white LED about the size of 2 periods next to each other. I'm investigating ways of making it yellow - 1st try is to use yellow glue to glue the LED in the lantern - any ideas? Thank you for asking me to photo this because you may have noticed that I used the ceiling planks as the background and I saw something in the zoomed version that is below that I never saw before - the little glue circles around the treenails. I have been undersizing the dowels by 0.002" (1/32" drill 0.031" and 0.029" dowel) because it is so much quicker to get the dowels in the holes along with a lot less breakage. I did not realize that these rings were being left behind! As irresponsible as it may sound I'm not at all sure that I am willing to forego the ease for the more correct look (isn't that terrible). I've already done strength tests and the undersizing even up to 0.003" (as large as I tested) does not effect strength at all (I use thick CA for virtually every gluing task). As far as San Francisco goes, it was a very useful trip. Cleveland's was moderately useful. Cleveland does make an interesting comment on Leon in a speech that he gave several times about building her. He says that one reason that he choose to build Leon was that "There was so much material available about her". He does not give a single example of that material nor does he give any references! Needless to say I was a bit disappointed. But visiting a 3 masted lumber schooner C.A. Thayer was very helpful and I'm waiting to hear from the captain of the ALMA, a scow schooner. My issue here is the spacing between Leon's frames. The % wood (i.e. full frame siding / center to center of frames) is 40% in Underhill's plans. On larger ships it's always > 80% typically between 85% and 93%. Here's the thing - By large I mean > 600 tons (ton=LOD x Beam x Draft x ().75/100). This tonnage formula allows me to make the calc for any ship AND the always quoted 302 for Leon comes from this formula. Below 600 the % wood starts dropping for many ships. CA Thayer (480 tons) is 69%. The Galilee (416) is 54% +/- 5%. the Coronet (337) is 43% +/- 10%. My grandfather sailed this beautiful schooner yacht around the world and my father was born on her. The reason I'm waiting for info on the Alma is because she is only 49 tons but from the outside she looks like a traditional wooden ship (The companion way was locked so I couldn't get below to make the measurements myself). This is important to me because I do not know if Leon's 40% is real (or perhaps I should say reasonable) or, as one guy said, "It's a stylized plank on frame model" with maybe a touch of disdain. The last point on SF is for human interest that I tripped on the first day on cement and got sores on 4 toes (wearing opened toed sandals, you see) 3 weeks later I'm going to a podiatrist because my big toe is still sore! That's a wrap! Doug
  12. 3 Micro Book Reports - Wooden Ship-Building, Charles Desmond - 1919, published for need of wooden ships circa WW I. Useful scantling tables, great diagrams and photos. A Practical Course in Wooden Boat and Ship Building, Richard M. Van Gaasbeek - 1918, published for need of wooden ships circa WW I. 1/2 boats (for methods) and 1/2 ships (Standard Wooden Steamship, LOD=282' Beam=45', Draft=24'). Lots of photos not much quantitative info. How Wooden Ships Are Built, H. Cole Estep - 1918, published for need of wooden ships circa WW I. Lots of photos not much quantitative info. Progress - Not much change visually but lots of little mistakes are fixed particularly in the areas of the ceiling, bulwark stanchions and main rail. What happened is that I have gone to 2 meetings of the Ship Modeling Society of New Jersey and the quality of work there is a lot higher than what I have been doing. Therefore, I decided to pause on progress and improve on quality. I also fitted the garboard strake and the next two strakes with a stealer in the second that I think may be enough. The garboard strake is made up of two pieces of wood that were edge glued before being cut and fitted. Continuing improvement in quality of fitting is my name! I'm using Underhill's method of setting out the planking hopefully ensuring that smooth, fair curves will be evident everywhere and from every point of view - the reference points can be seen marked on the frames about 3 plank widths above the 3rd plank. I'll bring the bottom planking up to where the ceiling has been planked. Then I'll be in a better position to decide what planks to leave out for visibility of the interior.
  13. Thanks to you also wefalck - Great background story - I never even heard of these things before - thanks also for confirmation that Leon wouldn't have had one.
  14. HMS for sure thanks for the info and for the pic. IT's HUGE!
  15. Building the Brigantine Leon at 1:48. Built 1880, Norway. I've seen some references to windmill bilge pumps being used on Scandinavian ships after about 1850 and into the 20th century but I am not able to follow up on these leads. The practice was supposedly very common. Given that I cannot even find a picture or diagram of one of these I am very interested in whether I should fit Leon with one and if so what does it look like? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Doug

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