Bob Cleek
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Status Replies posted by Bob Cleek
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Before I make a fatal mistake, I need to better understand the relationship between the Bearding line and the rabbit. Am I correct that the Bearding line is the merge point between the Keel and the lowest plank on the hull? Is the goal to reduce the thickness of the keel at the bearding line by the thickness of a plank so that the last plank's bottom edge is flush with the keel?
Is the rabbit the rounding of the bottom edge of the keel, so that there are no sharp edges? To do that would you find and mark the bottom center line and then gently round each side of the keel to the center line?
Also, I am still concerned about the difference between bulkhead from the pattern plans as referenced in my last post.
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A picture is worth a thousand words:
The line of the inboard plank corner is also called the "back rabbet" line.
Here's a fairly decent tutorial on cutting rabbets: Cutting a Rabbet Line - The Suburban Ship Modeler
The shape of a backbone rabbet is a rolling bevel, created by the use of a "fit stick" the thickness of the planking stock. The above article explains its use. Basically, it's an exercise in cutting notches at each frame end and then connecting them all in a graceful curve.
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OkesaBuilder looks into professional photographers - and they were too expensive. Suggestions welcome
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Check out the forum's photography section if you haven't already. Lots of good tips there. Photographing your work. How to do this. - Model Ship World™
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Good luck to you guys down there in this storm. I'm saying a prayer for you all!
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Hi Oakvander,
I'm located in Petaluma, CA, just north of San Francisco. I've spent my life in the maritime community here (my dad was in the shipping business with American President Lines.) I've been involved with other models folks sought to donate to the local museums through my connections with the late Karl Kortum, the founder of the San Francisco Maritime Museum. (I am an attorney by profession and a local maritime historian by avocation.) I've been building ship models on and off, as well as building, sailing, and maintaining my own wooden yachts for over fifty years. I've studied ship models "in person" in maritime museums in the U.S. and Europe. While I don't consider myself a "professional" in the field, I have to say that I can't imagine there is any museum that would be interested in accepting this model for any purpose other than to sell it off to a decorator or auction house, which for their purposes, would not be worth the effort because of the cost to restore it to marketable condition may well exceed the value of the model itself once it's restored. This isn't to suggest the model is "worthless," but only that those in the business of buying and selling models are looking to make a profit and little else. Moreover, the model is of a vessel with absolutely no local connection, so museums wouldn't be interested. Finally, as is becoming apparent from the posts in your thread, the model itself has no remarkable provenance, although we do know it appears to be a copy of the 16th Century NMG model whose prototype itself cannot be identified.
As someone mentioned, there may be a library, a yacht club, or a waterfront bar that might be interested in it for use as decor, but I doubt any of these would pay money for it nor provide an IRS deductible donation receipt for it for anything more than the statutory $500 maximum limit without a written appraisal for it that satisfied the IRS requirements. Here again, none of these would be interested in the model unless it was restored, the cost of which would far exceed the amount of any net recovery from a charitable donation deduction.
Another problem with selling models is that they are very expensive to ship anywhere because their cases must be properly crated to prevent breakage and they require very special handling by specialist shippers. They rarely survive a long-haul ride in the back of a semi-trailer. Here again, the shipping and special handling costs could well exceed the market value of the model, so the market area is likely to be limited to local buyers.
If the above discouraging assessment proves to be the case after their further efforts, I'd hate to see this otherwise nicely built model end up in the back of a Goodwill truck or the like. As I have done with deserving models before, I would be happy and grateful to "give it a good home," and restore it for my own "collection," which is hardly what anyone would call "museum quality," but interesting nonetheless. I hate to see well-build models die. However, the economics of it all being that the most I can justify offering for the model is to restore, preserve, and and appreciate it. If that it appears to the owners to be the best option left to them, I'd be happy to have it.
If you or they wish to discuss it further with me, you can contact me at robert@cleek-elin.com or phone at 415-408-8464.
BOB CLEEK
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Ah... The Barclay's Bank connection is a possible explanation. Being a San Francisco native, I recall Barclay's Bank back in those days. It was a British bank that opened a US subsidiary. They marketed themselves as "ever so veddy British" and played on the cache' that they were somehow "higher class." (Remember this was the era when James Bond was considered the ultimate in "cool," instead of the quaintly misogynistic lout he appears to be in his old movies today.) A model like this would exactly be the sort of thing they would have in their SF financial district branch office or conference room. Banks used to have fancy lobbies when customers had to spend time waiting in line for a teller back before ATM machines. (Wells Fargo had (has?) a stage coach and company museum in their Montgomery Street branch lobby around the same era.) I wouldn't be a bit surprised if some executive took it home when there was a move and it was no longer needed... or would no longer be noticed missing.
I agree with Dr. Kriegstein that the fact Franklin built the model wouldn't change the value appreciably. As a model, it is what it is and it does have its limitations. Franklin was known as a collector and an authority on Navy Board models, but he was not known as a model builder. His being the builder should definitely be told to Wall if an appraisal is done. it's not insignificant, but, while of interest, I also don't see anybody paying more for it on that account. I greatly respect the forumite who made the comment that it may increase the value, but I'm afraid his goodwill and best wishes got ahead of him in that instance. There are really only five or eight ship model builders in the world alive at any time whose works are so highly regarded and well recognized that their handiwork automatically draws attention in the marketplace. Ship models are like any work of art: They don't realize their highest prices until the artist is dead!
Yes, Wall does sell models, although at this point is seems that he also is doing a fair amount of appraisals, consulting, and restoration and conservation work. I've noticed of late that the quality and price point of his gallery offerings has decreased somewhat in recent years. He used to have a fair number of fine older models of high quality, along with some works by well known contemporary master modelers, but of late it seems he's filled out his offerings with less interesting stuff, including simply nicely made kit models! He still apparently has two or three of the well-recognized professional modelers who seem to sell their works through his gallery. Here's his current inventory you haven't seen it already: Current Inventory – American Marine Ship Model Gallery
I don't know if Wall accepts models for sale on commission or buys them outright and sells them on his own account.. He doesn't hold auctions, as far as I know. I would expect that he would want the model in his gallery if he were going to try to sell it. Any buyer would want to at least see a model in person before buying and a wise collector paying a good price for a select model would probably want it professionally examined and appraised.
Bob
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Hi Oakvander,
I'm located in Petaluma, CA, just north of San Francisco. I've spent my life in the maritime community here (my dad was in the shipping business with American President Lines.) I've been involved with other models folks sought to donate to the local museums through my connections with the late Karl Kortum, the founder of the San Francisco Maritime Museum. (I am an attorney by profession and a local maritime historian by avocation.) I've been building ship models on and off, as well as building, sailing, and maintaining my own wooden yachts for over fifty years. I've studied ship models "in person" in maritime museums in the U.S. and Europe. While I don't consider myself a "professional" in the field, I have to say that I can't imagine there is any museum that would be interested in accepting this model for any purpose other than to sell it off to a decorator or auction house, which for their purposes, would not be worth the effort because of the cost to restore it to marketable condition may well exceed the value of the model itself once it's restored. This isn't to suggest the model is "worthless," but only that those in the business of buying and selling models are looking to make a profit and little else. Moreover, the model is of a vessel with absolutely no local connection, so museums wouldn't be interested. Finally, as is becoming apparent from the posts in your thread, the model itself has no remarkable provenance, although we do know it appears to be a copy of the 16th Century NMG model whose prototype itself cannot be identified.
As someone mentioned, there may be a library, a yacht club, or a waterfront bar that might be interested in it for use as decor, but I doubt any of these would pay money for it nor provide an IRS deductible donation receipt for it for anything more than the statutory $500 maximum limit without a written appraisal for it that satisfied the IRS requirements. Here again, none of these would be interested in the model unless it was restored, the cost of which would far exceed the amount of any net recovery from a charitable donation deduction.
Another problem with selling models is that they are very expensive to ship anywhere because their cases must be properly crated to prevent breakage and they require very special handling by specialist shippers. They rarely survive a long-haul ride in the back of a semi-trailer. Here again, the shipping and special handling costs could well exceed the market value of the model, so the market area is likely to be limited to local buyers.
If the above discouraging assessment proves to be the case after their further efforts, I'd hate to see this otherwise nicely built model end up in the back of a Goodwill truck or the like. As I have done with deserving models before, I would be happy and grateful to "give it a good home," and restore it for my own "collection," which is hardly what anyone would call "museum quality," but interesting nonetheless. I hate to see well-build models die. However, the economics of it all being that the most I can justify offering for the model is to restore, preserve, and and appreciate it. If that it appears to the owners to be the best option left to them, I'd be happy to have it.
If you or they wish to discuss it further with me, you can contact me at robert@cleek-elin.com or phone at 415-408-8464.
BOB CLEEK
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Hi Oakvander,
Yes, I just saw your post. It's indisputably the same model. The grain and markings on the hull match perfectly, like a finger print. Amazing that Dr. Kriegstein still had the photo. Franklin surely knew his Navy Board models, but I wasn't aware he had only built two models. Kriegstein's information seems to agree with my impressions. I guessed it was built a little later than 1970, but close enough. Come to think of it, though, 1970 makes more sense given the "lead bloom." It wasn't until the mid-70's at the earliest that lead was replaced by the lead-free Britannia metal for such castings. The fact Franklin was a furniture builder and restorer fits perfectly with the skill evident in the wood work and the fact he only built two models, which would explain the disparity in the skill evident in the wood work and in the rigging. It explains the nice case and table, probably built by him as well.
The only question is how did the model get here if it were built in England? That's a lot of expensive packing and shipping. Not the sort of thing you throw into a cargo container along with a lot of other junk for the ride over.
Bob
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Hi Oakvander,
I'm located in Petaluma, CA, just north of San Francisco. I've spent my life in the maritime community here (my dad was in the shipping business with American President Lines.) I've been involved with other models folks sought to donate to the local museums through my connections with the late Karl Kortum, the founder of the San Francisco Maritime Museum. (I am an attorney by profession and a local maritime historian by avocation.) I've been building ship models on and off, as well as building, sailing, and maintaining my own wooden yachts for over fifty years. I've studied ship models "in person" in maritime museums in the U.S. and Europe. While I don't consider myself a "professional" in the field, I have to say that I can't imagine there is any museum that would be interested in accepting this model for any purpose other than to sell it off to a decorator or auction house, which for their purposes, would not be worth the effort because of the cost to restore it to marketable condition may well exceed the value of the model itself once it's restored. This isn't to suggest the model is "worthless," but only that those in the business of buying and selling models are looking to make a profit and little else. Moreover, the model is of a vessel with absolutely no local connection, so museums wouldn't be interested. Finally, as is becoming apparent from the posts in your thread, the model itself has no remarkable provenance, although we do know it appears to be a copy of the 16th Century NMG model whose prototype itself cannot be identified.
As someone mentioned, there may be a library, a yacht club, or a waterfront bar that might be interested in it for use as decor, but I doubt any of these would pay money for it nor provide an IRS deductible donation receipt for it for anything more than the statutory $500 maximum limit without a written appraisal for it that satisfied the IRS requirements. Here again, none of these would be interested in the model unless it was restored, the cost of which would far exceed the amount of any net recovery from a charitable donation deduction.
Another problem with selling models is that they are very expensive to ship anywhere because their cases must be properly crated to prevent breakage and they require very special handling by specialist shippers. They rarely survive a long-haul ride in the back of a semi-trailer. Here again, the shipping and special handling costs could well exceed the market value of the model, so the market area is likely to be limited to local buyers.
If the above discouraging assessment proves to be the case after their further efforts, I'd hate to see this otherwise nicely built model end up in the back of a Goodwill truck or the like. As I have done with deserving models before, I would be happy and grateful to "give it a good home," and restore it for my own "collection," which is hardly what anyone would call "museum quality," but interesting nonetheless. I hate to see well-build models die. However, the economics of it all being that the most I can justify offering for the model is to restore, preserve, and and appreciate it. If that it appears to the owners to be the best option left to them, I'd be happy to have it.
If you or they wish to discuss it further with me, you can contact me at robert@cleek-elin.com or phone at 415-408-8464.
BOB CLEEK
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Yes, the prices that all but the top antique models like the Kriegsteins collect bring is very disappointing, considering the work that goes into creating them and their intrinsic beauty. I'm gratified to hear Arnold Kriegstein's opinion is close to mine. I had not mentioned a price estimate previously, but I'd agree. An auction catalog estimate $3,000 to $5,000 was exactly the range I had in my mind, although that was if the model were properly restored with perhaps some of the more glaring errors corrected and, as I suggested before, the restoration work could take a serious bite out of what would be netted from that price estimate. I wouldn't dispute Kriegstein's 1970 build date estimate, either. It could easily have been built that early, although if I had to bet money on it, I'd put it closer to 1990, but that's just my guess. This model is of the type and era of Kreigstein's forte and, as the saying goes, "He da man!" (Without question, I'd guess the value of the Kriegstein collection is well in excess of $3 million!) The only caveat I'd add to his estimate would be, "If a buyer can be found." I follow some of the auction house listings posted on line (e.g. https://www.liveauctioneers.com/catalog/69080_ship-model-and-nautical-antique-auction/?page=1) What I've seen of late is that model auction estimates in the $3,000 to $5,000 range often sell in the $1,500 to $2,000 range or are withdrawn due to the lack of a bid that meets the reserve price. Auction prices must also factor in the "buyer's premium" which can run from 10% to 25% in some cases. Based on what we know at present, it's a copy of an original, so serious collectors like the Kriegsteins wouldn't be interested in it. It would likely be of interest as a decorator piece, but I expect the market for decorators "accent" models of that size is pretty limited. (Interior decorators decorating the big library of some gazillionaire's restored mansion in the Hamptons buy them.)
I can't say that I'd expect Wall's estimate to differ from Arnold Kriegstein's, unless Wall's were considerably lower because he appraised it at he thought he could sell it for in his gallery. His motivation would be to "move" it quickly. It costs him money to hold onto a model. It's all about "turn over" in the art gallery business. (One of the advantages of being a divorce attorney for many years is all the interesting trivia you learn about your clients' businesses. One of my clients in recent years was the manager of a gallery that represented Leroy Nieman and sold all of his paintings, so I had to learn all about the art gallery business. Another client was an art collector and investor with a collection that occasioned a dispute over the authenticity of a sketch attributed to Rafael. I worked with an expert from Oxford University who did a scientific analysis of that one and found yet another sketch beneath the top one. I learned that in Rafael and Michaelangelo's day, paper was expensive, so they'd sketch drawings for their frescos and paintings on paper and when the fresco was done, they'd paint white paint over the sketch and use the paper again for another sketch! But I digress...
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As for my still being interested in it, yes, certainly. I actually enjoy restoration work on well-done models because it requires getting into the builder's head by studying their work. Being the perfectionist in such things that I am, it would be a lot more of a project than I'd first anticipated, but a worthwhile endeavor nonetheless. Another example of the old maxim, "Be careful what you wish for!"
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Hi Oakvander,
I'm located in Petaluma, CA, just north of San Francisco. I've spent my life in the maritime community here (my dad was in the shipping business with American President Lines.) I've been involved with other models folks sought to donate to the local museums through my connections with the late Karl Kortum, the founder of the San Francisco Maritime Museum. (I am an attorney by profession and a local maritime historian by avocation.) I've been building ship models on and off, as well as building, sailing, and maintaining my own wooden yachts for over fifty years. I've studied ship models "in person" in maritime museums in the U.S. and Europe. While I don't consider myself a "professional" in the field, I have to say that I can't imagine there is any museum that would be interested in accepting this model for any purpose other than to sell it off to a decorator or auction house, which for their purposes, would not be worth the effort because of the cost to restore it to marketable condition may well exceed the value of the model itself once it's restored. This isn't to suggest the model is "worthless," but only that those in the business of buying and selling models are looking to make a profit and little else. Moreover, the model is of a vessel with absolutely no local connection, so museums wouldn't be interested. Finally, as is becoming apparent from the posts in your thread, the model itself has no remarkable provenance, although we do know it appears to be a copy of the 16th Century NMG model whose prototype itself cannot be identified.
As someone mentioned, there may be a library, a yacht club, or a waterfront bar that might be interested in it for use as decor, but I doubt any of these would pay money for it nor provide an IRS deductible donation receipt for it for anything more than the statutory $500 maximum limit without a written appraisal for it that satisfied the IRS requirements. Here again, none of these would be interested in the model unless it was restored, the cost of which would far exceed the amount of any net recovery from a charitable donation deduction.
Another problem with selling models is that they are very expensive to ship anywhere because their cases must be properly crated to prevent breakage and they require very special handling by specialist shippers. They rarely survive a long-haul ride in the back of a semi-trailer. Here again, the shipping and special handling costs could well exceed the market value of the model, so the market area is likely to be limited to local buyers.
If the above discouraging assessment proves to be the case after their further efforts, I'd hate to see this otherwise nicely built model end up in the back of a Goodwill truck or the like. As I have done with deserving models before, I would be happy and grateful to "give it a good home," and restore it for my own "collection," which is hardly what anyone would call "museum quality," but interesting nonetheless. I hate to see well-build models die. However, the economics of it all being that the most I can justify offering for the model is to restore, preserve, and and appreciate it. If that it appears to the owners to be the best option left to them, I'd be happy to have it.
If you or they wish to discuss it further with me, you can contact me at robert@cleek-elin.com or phone at 415-408-8464.
BOB CLEEK
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Hi Oakvander,
I think it's wise for the owners to get an appraisal from Mike Wall if it isn't too costly. They should know that there are appraisals done for "insurance purposes" or to support tax deductions if a model is to be a tax-deductible donation, and there are appraisals done for the purpose of establishing a reasonable sale price. The two types can vary considerably.
Your additional pictures were most helpful, although they may have raised more questions than they provided welcome answers. In the event the owners may wish to sell the model, I'm not posting these further comments.
From the additional photos, it is now clear that there is not simply a "missing stern lantern," but rather that the stern lanterns are exhibiting the ravages of "lead bloom." This is essentially oxidation which occurs from acidic environmental conditions which causes lead and lead alloys to turn to powder (lead oxide.) It's essentially "lead rusting." One lantern has been near completely consumed. The interior bare lead of the other two show less severe deterioration. Undoubtedly, they were once painted red on the inside of the frames, as was the prototype model in the museum at Greenwich, but as the lead decomposed, the red paint went with it. This is a common occurrence with painted lead parts. It appears quite likely that the rest of the "carved" decoration on the model is not carved at all, but, like the lanterns, is made of cast lead or lead alloy using the "lost wax" process. Fortunately, the gold leaf (or more likely gold paint) has provided greater protection to these "gilded" parts, so the oxidation process has been less severe. "Lead bloom" is also called "lead cancer" for good reason. It is progressive and near impossible to prevent. The lanterns certainly, and perhaps other parts of the decoration, will have to be replicated and cast in non-lead-based alloys. This is going to require much more extensive conservation that I previously indicated. An excellent explanation of the problems of lead oxidization encountered by ship model curators can be found here: Nautical Research Journal - Vol 43 (thenrg.org)
The additional photographs also reveal other concerns, some mentioned by subsequent posters. It is apparent that this, in my opinion, this is a relatively recently built model, perhaps being done in the last 25 or 30 years. That's just a gut impression based on the pictures, but there's much about the detail now apparent that indicates construction techniques which were not common until that time frame. It's an impression formed from looking closely at models for fifty years or so. However subtle, you just know when a model is really old and when it's fairly new. That said, we can tell a lot about a builder (artist) from studying the work. The builder of this model was very skilled when it came to woodworking and likely had the sort of modern powered tools that produce the crisp, well-fitted woodwork that the model exhibits. On the other hand, the builder's strong suit was not rigging, both with respect to construction technique and historical accuracy. There are a fair number of anachronisms in the rigging work that are quite apparent. The thread and cord used for the rigging appears to be a collection of commercially made thread and string, rather than "scale rope" laid up in the same manner as the full-size prototype. All other things being equal, bringing this model into the high-dollar category would quite likely require considerable re-rigging.
I offer these comments no to run the model down, but rather to educate the owners of my own impressions, if nothing else, and to prepare them for what Mike Wall or one of his appraisers is likely to tell them. It's still a lovely model, assuming the more glaring issues are addressed. Given its inherent qualities, the causes of its lack of provenance remains a mystery.
Appraisal reports are the property of their purchasers and customarily kept confidential, but I'd love to know what Wall thinks of it. For what it is, it's a large model and that may be it's biggest handicap in the marketplace. When you look at Wall's current inventory, compared to what he used to have in his gallery, it is clear that he's now moved to the "miniature" models of famous builders like McNarry, McCaffery, and Reed who work to very small scales, producing six-inch to a foot long masterpieces that fit on a bookshelf instead of large scale models such as this one which, with its table and case, is the size of an armoire!
Bob Cleek
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Hi Oakvander,
I'm located in Petaluma, CA, just north of San Francisco. I've spent my life in the maritime community here (my dad was in the shipping business with American President Lines.) I've been involved with other models folks sought to donate to the local museums through my connections with the late Karl Kortum, the founder of the San Francisco Maritime Museum. (I am an attorney by profession and a local maritime historian by avocation.) I've been building ship models on and off, as well as building, sailing, and maintaining my own wooden yachts for over fifty years. I've studied ship models "in person" in maritime museums in the U.S. and Europe. While I don't consider myself a "professional" in the field, I have to say that I can't imagine there is any museum that would be interested in accepting this model for any purpose other than to sell it off to a decorator or auction house, which for their purposes, would not be worth the effort because of the cost to restore it to marketable condition may well exceed the value of the model itself once it's restored. This isn't to suggest the model is "worthless," but only that those in the business of buying and selling models are looking to make a profit and little else. Moreover, the model is of a vessel with absolutely no local connection, so museums wouldn't be interested. Finally, as is becoming apparent from the posts in your thread, the model itself has no remarkable provenance, although we do know it appears to be a copy of the 16th Century NMG model whose prototype itself cannot be identified.
As someone mentioned, there may be a library, a yacht club, or a waterfront bar that might be interested in it for use as decor, but I doubt any of these would pay money for it nor provide an IRS deductible donation receipt for it for anything more than the statutory $500 maximum limit without a written appraisal for it that satisfied the IRS requirements. Here again, none of these would be interested in the model unless it was restored, the cost of which would far exceed the amount of any net recovery from a charitable donation deduction.
Another problem with selling models is that they are very expensive to ship anywhere because their cases must be properly crated to prevent breakage and they require very special handling by specialist shippers. They rarely survive a long-haul ride in the back of a semi-trailer. Here again, the shipping and special handling costs could well exceed the market value of the model, so the market area is likely to be limited to local buyers.
If the above discouraging assessment proves to be the case after their further efforts, I'd hate to see this otherwise nicely built model end up in the back of a Goodwill truck or the like. As I have done with deserving models before, I would be happy and grateful to "give it a good home," and restore it for my own "collection," which is hardly what anyone would call "museum quality," but interesting nonetheless. I hate to see well-build models die. However, the economics of it all being that the most I can justify offering for the model is to restore, preserve, and and appreciate it. If that it appears to the owners to be the best option left to them, I'd be happy to have it.
If you or they wish to discuss it further with me, you can contact me at robert@cleek-elin.com or phone at 415-408-8464.
BOB CLEEK
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Go for it! You may "catch the bug!'
The real mystery at this point is "Who built it?" It seems it's not from a kit, so somebody who knew what they were doing must have done the research and built a replica of the model in the National Maritime Museum - Greenwich. It's one of a kind, which is a good thing. The issues of needed repairs, valuation, and finding a home for a model of this size remain outstanding, of course. It certainly deserves to be preserved.
Do the folks that have it now have any idea of its history? Perhaps there's a thread that can be unraveled from that point backwards.
Anyhow, I remain intrigued. Keep me posted!
Bob
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Hi Oakvander,
I'm located in Petaluma, CA, just north of San Francisco. I've spent my life in the maritime community here (my dad was in the shipping business with American President Lines.) I've been involved with other models folks sought to donate to the local museums through my connections with the late Karl Kortum, the founder of the San Francisco Maritime Museum. (I am an attorney by profession and a local maritime historian by avocation.) I've been building ship models on and off, as well as building, sailing, and maintaining my own wooden yachts for over fifty years. I've studied ship models "in person" in maritime museums in the U.S. and Europe. While I don't consider myself a "professional" in the field, I have to say that I can't imagine there is any museum that would be interested in accepting this model for any purpose other than to sell it off to a decorator or auction house, which for their purposes, would not be worth the effort because of the cost to restore it to marketable condition may well exceed the value of the model itself once it's restored. This isn't to suggest the model is "worthless," but only that those in the business of buying and selling models are looking to make a profit and little else. Moreover, the model is of a vessel with absolutely no local connection, so museums wouldn't be interested. Finally, as is becoming apparent from the posts in your thread, the model itself has no remarkable provenance, although we do know it appears to be a copy of the 16th Century NMG model whose prototype itself cannot be identified.
As someone mentioned, there may be a library, a yacht club, or a waterfront bar that might be interested in it for use as decor, but I doubt any of these would pay money for it nor provide an IRS deductible donation receipt for it for anything more than the statutory $500 maximum limit without a written appraisal for it that satisfied the IRS requirements. Here again, none of these would be interested in the model unless it was restored, the cost of which would far exceed the amount of any net recovery from a charitable donation deduction.
Another problem with selling models is that they are very expensive to ship anywhere because their cases must be properly crated to prevent breakage and they require very special handling by specialist shippers. They rarely survive a long-haul ride in the back of a semi-trailer. Here again, the shipping and special handling costs could well exceed the market value of the model, so the market area is likely to be limited to local buyers.
If the above discouraging assessment proves to be the case after their further efforts, I'd hate to see this otherwise nicely built model end up in the back of a Goodwill truck or the like. As I have done with deserving models before, I would be happy and grateful to "give it a good home," and restore it for my own "collection," which is hardly what anyone would call "museum quality," but interesting nonetheless. I hate to see well-build models die. However, the economics of it all being that the most I can justify offering for the model is to restore, preserve, and and appreciate it. If that it appears to the owners to be the best option left to them, I'd be happy to have it.
If you or they wish to discuss it further with me, you can contact me at robert@cleek-elin.com or phone at 415-408-8464.
BOB CLEEK
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I'm sure I can round up a helper to move it. The components are customarily separated when moving these things. It's quite amazing how much space a "miniature" model takes up, isn't it? (Another factor that limits the market for them, regrettably.) Fortunately, I do have a spot where it would fit nicely in my home... if my wife can be persuaded! Failing that, I am building an addition onto my 1,500 square foot workshop building here on the property to serve as a study and to house my maritime history research library and there will be plenty of room to house such models in there.
Here's a similarly-sized one of my own models on display in my law office.
Bob
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Hi Oakvander,
I'm located in Petaluma, CA, just north of San Francisco. I've spent my life in the maritime community here (my dad was in the shipping business with American President Lines.) I've been involved with other models folks sought to donate to the local museums through my connections with the late Karl Kortum, the founder of the San Francisco Maritime Museum. (I am an attorney by profession and a local maritime historian by avocation.) I've been building ship models on and off, as well as building, sailing, and maintaining my own wooden yachts for over fifty years. I've studied ship models "in person" in maritime museums in the U.S. and Europe. While I don't consider myself a "professional" in the field, I have to say that I can't imagine there is any museum that would be interested in accepting this model for any purpose other than to sell it off to a decorator or auction house, which for their purposes, would not be worth the effort because of the cost to restore it to marketable condition may well exceed the value of the model itself once it's restored. This isn't to suggest the model is "worthless," but only that those in the business of buying and selling models are looking to make a profit and little else. Moreover, the model is of a vessel with absolutely no local connection, so museums wouldn't be interested. Finally, as is becoming apparent from the posts in your thread, the model itself has no remarkable provenance, although we do know it appears to be a copy of the 16th Century NMG model whose prototype itself cannot be identified.
As someone mentioned, there may be a library, a yacht club, or a waterfront bar that might be interested in it for use as decor, but I doubt any of these would pay money for it nor provide an IRS deductible donation receipt for it for anything more than the statutory $500 maximum limit without a written appraisal for it that satisfied the IRS requirements. Here again, none of these would be interested in the model unless it was restored, the cost of which would far exceed the amount of any net recovery from a charitable donation deduction.
Another problem with selling models is that they are very expensive to ship anywhere because their cases must be properly crated to prevent breakage and they require very special handling by specialist shippers. They rarely survive a long-haul ride in the back of a semi-trailer. Here again, the shipping and special handling costs could well exceed the market value of the model, so the market area is likely to be limited to local buyers.
If the above discouraging assessment proves to be the case after their further efforts, I'd hate to see this otherwise nicely built model end up in the back of a Goodwill truck or the like. As I have done with deserving models before, I would be happy and grateful to "give it a good home," and restore it for my own "collection," which is hardly what anyone would call "museum quality," but interesting nonetheless. I hate to see well-build models die. However, the economics of it all being that the most I can justify offering for the model is to restore, preserve, and and appreciate it. If that it appears to the owners to be the best option left to them, I'd be happy to have it.
If you or they wish to discuss it further with me, you can contact me at robert@cleek-elin.com or phone at 415-408-8464.
BOB CLEEK
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I'm semi-retired and my own boss, so my time is pretty much my own unless my wife commandeers me. I don't know where the model is, but I can easily drive anywhere in the Bay Area on short notice. No problem at all. I have a pickup truck with a shell and a large passenger compartment that I move models around in when necessary.
Bob
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NRG Member 45 Years
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I was just reading the HMS Fubbs thread and wanted to mention a good resource for books, Alibris. I recently purchased Portia Takakjian’s ship modeling techniques for a good price. I am watching the Essex book and am ready to pick it up for $45 if it’s still available after payday. I don’t see a way to respond on the Fubbs thread and it’s a bit off topic anyway.
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Yes, I always check all the online used book dealers, not just Amazon. Amazon often has incredibly high prices. I think their software simply lists everything for whatever anybody is asking. People see the highest asking price on Amazon and then add a bit more when they list the same thing and it just feeds on itself.
There was a time when there were bargains to be had if one searched the brick and mortar used bookstores. I picked up books worth two or three hundred bucks for ten or twenty bucks back in the day. Now, with the internet, it's a lot easier to find a given book you might be searching for, but the odds of the seller not knowing what the book is really worth are a lot less likely. More often than not, their prices are inflated on the basis of the "there's a sucker born every minute" principle. Fortunately, I've been collecting maritime reference works for some fifty years now and have everything I need, more or less. Some of the recent stuff, like Froelich's book, are real works of art and worth paying the price, but most are at least three-quarters full of information I've already got on hand from older books.
I got Takakjian's Ship Modeling Techniques for $45.00. I thought that was high for what it was, but there just aren't all that many copies around, so I paid up for it. It's a "classic" that I wanted for the sake of completeness, but it is somewhat dated, as far as the techniques shown go. She straddled the "early period" of Davis and Underhill, and the "modern period" of tight tolerance machine tool building of plank on frame style models. If my luck is as it often is, somebody will issue a reprint in a couple of months and this time next year it will be selling new for $9.95! Oh well!
Bob Cleek
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