USS Constitution by Modeler12 - Cross Section, Forward Area of the

[Modeler12]

After all of that, thank you again Dan for letting us in on a little secret

The first drawing shows the orlop deck exactly as it is right now. The hold does no longer have the tanks nor the 'sand lockers'. I will take another look to see if I can find anything that resembles the sanitation piping.

I do recall having read about a pump in the past and that it was connected to water barrels in the hold. But that was probably on another ship.

Edited July 21, 2015 by Modeler12

[Modeler12]

Ok, here is some more about that remodeling back in the 1920s. Sanitation piping.

 

The picture below shows the corner of the 'sail' or 'storage' room towards the bow orlop deck. Notice the 'carpenter's walk' with the fire hose going through it. The plumbing you see there must have been of the 'sanitation' system. I don't think it has anything to do with the sprinkler system above. In fact, on the port side there is a cabinet with probably the rest of the system including a 2.375 inch od 'lead' pipe going at an angle forward to the berth deck. Another pipe goes through that carpenter's walk aft. I am curious if the cabinet has another pump for salt water.

 

The drawing also shows connections that are marked as 'mag. emptying cock xxx' and two more inside the 'handling rooms'.

Now, I am not really interested in how that worked (sanitation wise), but it does point to some extra plumbing that I did not know about.

BTW the fire hose has nothing to do with this. The same hose can be seen coming through the forward hatch on all decks and the hold. It must have been for a system drill or test.

 

[JSGerson]

I ran across this US Navy file I collected some time ago about the mystery pump (discussion started in post #248):

 

ConstitutionPumps.pdf

 

It confirms that it was a fresh water pump and dates back to the 1870's.

 

Unfortunately, now I cannot find the website source I got it from.

[Modeler12]

Dan indicated that the drawings might have been dated to 1931. However, that seems very late when you consider that lead pipes were mostly outlawed by then.

The use of lead pipe for drinking water was a very controversial subject and in the late 1800s its use was curtailed in many municipalities. Although the lead manufacturing industry made a significant come back in the early 1920s to combat the bad publicity, it would seem to me that to use it by the Navy aboard this ship in 1931 would be questionable . Hence the date you provide (ca 1870) would seem to be more reasonable.

I wonder if there are any markings on the pump that could lead to some further research (make, model, manufacturer, etc). When were the lead pipes removed?

[trippwj]

Dan indicated that the drawings might have been dated to 1931. However, that seems very late when you consider that lead pipes were mostly outlawed by then.

The use of lead pipe for drinking water was a very controversial subject and in the late 1800s its use was curtailed in many municipalities. Although the lead manufacturing industry made a significant come back in the early 1920s to combat the bad publicity, it would seem to me that to use it by the Navy aboard this ship in 1931 would be questionable . Hence the date you provide (ca 1870) would seem to be more reasonable.

I wonder if there are any markings on the pump that could lead to some further research (make, model, manufacturer, etc). When were the lead pipes removed?

 

Actually, the use of lead water lines was NOT outlawed until the 1970's (and according to the CDC, if a house was built prior to 1986, chances are good that there was a lead water supply line used).  I doubt the Navy replaced the lead pipes for the 1931 cruise unless there was an issue concerning the functioning of the system.  However, the 1870 date seems more realistic for the type of fittings shown.

[Modeler12]

Wayne, officially the use was outlawed in the 1970's, but here is part of an article published by the National Institute of Health in the US.

 

'Lead pipes for carrying drinking water were well recognized as a cause of lead poisoning by the late 1800s in the United States. By the 1920s, many cities and towns were prohibiting or restricting their use.'

[Modeler12]

The relocation of the oven and riding bits has caused some major changes in the rest of this model. Some for the better, as it turns out.

The extended hatches on the gun and berth deck now will have stairs so that it will be possible to go from the top (spar) deck down to the orlop deck and hold. 

The picture below shows the large hatch on top (along with the hatch for the stove pipe) then there is the gun deck hatch with still a high cowling because of the wet deck, and then the berth deck with a lower cowling. Counting the two hatches in the orlop deck that go down into the magazine (covered with the solid board and hole), this thing will have six hatches.

I still have to make the three long gratings that are missing below. The filler piece and hatch for the orlop deck are still loose and I have to add more planking towards the bow, but I am holding off until I get a better fix on the light and powder rooms. I should add that there will be walls along the port side indicating the 'carpenter's walk' and the storage room. The height has to be determined during assembly, just like those in the magazine/powder room. But I do have a door waiting for that.

 

The alignment of the hatches on the gun and berth deck will be critical because of the stairs, but I have an idea how to help that situation and will show that later.

Edited July 23, 2015 by Modeler12

[GLakie]

That's a fine bit of detective and engineering work you're doing Jay.  It's all coming together! 

[Modeler12]

That's a fine bit of detective and engineering work you're doing Jay.  It's all coming together! 

Again, George, it is all because of the help I get from you guys out there. A bit of logic also helps.

I keep asking myself, though, if this whole thing will come together in the end.

 

Meanwhile I have put the framework for the spar deck together. But now I think I will wait before I start the planking. This time I want to make sure I get the plank next to the water-ways correct along with the 'spalding' or whatever it is called when planks are fitted with no sharp ends. All of that has to wait.

 

One other thing is that the light room (per Henry's input about the brass covered holes in the orlop deck) now needs two LEDs. 

Boy, I wished that I could take a look down in that dungeon. But I guess I am too old to work down there.

[shiloh]

Suspect that you will get it all together and be content with what you have done. This model will be one talked about and used as a reference for a long time, along with this build log. Second guessing and hindsight will happen as new data sources are discovered, but applying common sense and keeping in mind the room needed to operate the various fittings, as you have done, will keep conflicts with future data discovery at a  minimum.

jud

[mtaylor]

I did a bit of digging on this a bit...

 

http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/270-uss-constitution-by-force9-revell-plastic-revisiting-the-classic-196-kit/

 

Googling  "uss constitution powder magazine - seems to have only pics of the aft magazine... and a reference to Force 9's log.  Very strange that there's not more out there. 

[Modeler12]

Thanks Mark. That is a real interesting thread by Force 9 and I will have to read it in more details.
I have not yet found the powder magazine part, but I am almost sure that the whole thing below the rolop deck was an 'after-thought' and not used during any war battles. But I have been wrong on many other subjects.
 

I am still interested in seeing the room and bulkheads below . . .keep it coming folks . . .

Henry, can I come and visit???

Edited July 24, 2015 by Modeler12

[popeye2sea]

Anytime Jay. Anytime

[Modeler12]

I alluded to the alignment of the stairs and that I thought I may have a way to help that. Here are a couple pictures of how. 

They are a mock-up for the stairs going from the berth deck down to the orlop. Instead of the flimsy stairs, I thought it might be good to have something more solid to start with. I will do the same with the other deck stairs.
  
Note I will have to add part of a plank here and there.

 

Are any of you familiar with the Winchester Mystery House in San Jose, CA??

[popeye2sea]

Are you telling us that the ghosts are making you keep building and never finish?

[mtaylor]

Ah.... not the devil but the "ghosts made him do it" then? 

 

Those are solid stairs, aren't they?

[Modeler12]

Anytime Jay. Anytime

Count me in, Henry. I have your number (I think).

 

Here is another question (and I am full of them). Sand was used on the gun and top deck before a battle to aid in traction (I believe). The drawing provided by Dan shows 'sand lockers' on both sides of the hold. Great; close to the main hatch, and easy to haul up.

But, was the sand loose or in gurney sacks, and how big? Interesting to add to the hold in front of my model eventually.

[Modeler12]

Ah.... not the devil but the "ghosts made him do it" then? 

 

Those are solid stairs, aren't they?

Common, Mark, you don't see how hollow I am?

[shiloh]

He has a good start, 'even has left a handle to hang on to'. Like every other carver, all he needs to do now, is remove everything that doesn't look like a ladder.

jud

Edited July 24, 2015 by shiloh

[Modeler12]

You know, I don't think my idea of the solid stairs was all that good. I even had the hatch and stairs going in the wrong direction. It should be like shown below. This would be going from the berth deck down to the orlop deck, and the bottom of the stairs would be right at the edge of the main hold.

Notice my repair work. The longer hatch meant that the carling you see had to be moved inwards. The new one has to be sanded flush and notched for the missing joist.

Perhaps the admiral was not all that off base when she referred to my efforts as 'Jay's Mystery Ship'.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Modeler12

[Modeler12]

Now the big question is 'will all that stuff in the front fit inside all that stuff in the back?'

 

I am sure it will, but after installing each deck I will be cutting away a lot of the beams along the starboard side. I want to be able to see something inside.

It is about time to start working on the frames again.

[cwboland]

Coming along really nicely Jay. Have fun placing the decks between the frames. Looks like a fun job.

[Modeler12]

Coming along really nicely Jay. Have fun placing the decks between the frames. Looks like a fun job.

It should be, Carl, and it probably will be a fun job. What I hate, though, is to have to do repair work.

Just like now I don't work on my cars any more. Too complicated.

I remember the cars when there were two buttons on the floor. One was the starter and the other to dim the head lights.

[GLakie]

Just like now I don't work on my cars any more. Too complicated.

I remember the cars when there were two buttons on the floor. One was the starter and the other to dim the head lights.

I'm like you Jay. I miss the days when the average guy could fix a car themselves, if you just had some basic tools. Now you'd have to have a degree in electrical engineering, and $40,000 in diagnostic equipment. Guess they figured they didn't like us making their cars last for 20 or 30 years when they could be selling us another one. 

[Modeler12]

Just to come back to my favorite mystery ship. 

When I saw the pictures taken by Google of the various places, I was intrigued about this funny 'porthole' in the orlop deck. It is between the entrance to the magazine and the hold. No reason!!!???

Henry has told me that there are two similar ones towards the bow inside the brass boxes you can see in the floor that are used for the 'light boxes' (aka 'light rooms').

Then the following scenario occurred to me:

This whole area would be totally dark unless you bring a lantern with you. But you are not allowed to open the hatch to the magazine with an open flame (big bang problem). So, before the hatch is opened to allow the boys to go down, you place the lantern on a special shelf around the corner in the hold. The light goes through the porthole and leads the way for those poor souls (hoping that someone puts lights inside the brass boxes up front).

 

Ignore the light switched and other modern stuff shown, but I will have portholes in this wall.

 

You know, this whole thing would make a great movie for Halloween. Can you imagine little boys going down those stairs with 'the master' carrying a lantern while he is telling them that the whole ship might blow up if they did not do this right and that they have to open the hole to hell after he goes around the corner with that light, and . . . . 

Where are those pictures of the gun powder kegs?

Edited July 25, 2015 by Modeler12

[Modeler12]

Here is a fun little side project. I am making a number of these cartridge pouches. You see them hanging from the knees above the cannons on the gun deck. They are used to carry the cloth bags filled with gun powder from the fill room to the gun and spar deck.

I used some 0.08 inch dowel, grooved it and cut it to 1/4 inch length. Then I glued on some thread and painted it brown to simulate the leather. The plastic cannon balls are 0.060 inch in diameter.

My plan is to have some of these hanging on the gun deck as well as on the wall next to the hatch on the orlop deck. Perhaps it would draw attention to the fill room below.

[lambsbk]

Just curious: where did you find plastic cannon balls - especially in that diameter?

[Modeler12]

Just curious: where did you find plastic cannon balls - especially in that diameter?

They came with the Model Shipways kit of the full scale model. These were just some balls left over.

Check out sources for ball bearings or beads for jewelry.

 

Here is one source http://www.precisionballs.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=35

Edited July 25, 2015 by Modeler12

[DanO]

I do not know if this will be helpful with the gun powder magazine issue, if not the referance may help

 

Dan

[Modeler12]

Dan that is good stuff, man. What the drawings indicate is that there are two separate magazines, one on each side.That would explain the two scuttles and two light boxes. I would dearly like to see the full size drawings because when I copied yours and blew them up, the lines become fuzzy.

However, it is obvious that the crawl space down there is very limited. The rooms are completely enclosed with ceiling panels, floors and side walls. I will try to compare the sizes to get an idea of how much headroom there is and put some plans together for my usage. As before, I will take some liberties with the way I'll show the two rooms with cutouts, etc.

I think Henry will be interested in this also. He has never been down there, but did indicate that there is a glass porthole on each side between the powder room and light box.

Thanks to you, Dan and Henry, I am getting closer and it all makes sense. Now back to those drawings and the source.

 

BTW I did a quick scaling from the drawings and found that the headroom in that dungeon is only about 24 inches. 

But at least the boys down there did not have to worry about bumping their heads against beams in the dark.

Edited July 25, 2015 by Modeler12