Jump to content

Syren by JesseLee - FINISHED - Model Shipways - scale: 1:64


Recommended Posts

agreed on all counts!  remarkable ingenuity Jesse.......rigged,  it will look very good.  most parts of the standing rigging is usually done with larger ropes anyways;  it will fit in nicely  ;)    super job my friend!

I yam wot I yam!

finished builds:
Billings Nordkap 476 / Billings Cux 87 / Billings Mary Ann / Billings AmericA - reissue
Billings Regina - bashed into the Susan A / Andrea Gail 1:20 - semi scratch w/ Billing instructions
M&M Fun Ship - semi scratch build / Gundalow - scratch build / Jeanne D'Arc - Heller
Phylly C & Denny-Zen - the Lobsie twins - bashed & semi scratch dual build

Billing T78 Norden

 

in dry dock:
Billing's Gothenborg 1:100 / Billing's Boulogne Etaples 1:20
Billing's Half Moon 1:40 - some scratch required
Revell U.S.S. United States 1:96 - plastic/ wood modified / Academy Titanic 1:400
Trawler Syborn - semi scratch / Holiday Harbor dual build - semi scratch

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you Gary, Tom, John, Steve, Carl, Scott, Zappto, Denis, Dave & Dave for the feedback on the netting.

Yes Carl, we are our own worst critics. I still don't completely like what I see but it shows up pretty good with the camera.

Popeye, I hadn't thought about the rolled up hammocks. I don't know much about them. Haven't found much info on them yet but you have sparked my curiosity. 

 

Thank you Dirk,it is an honor to be complimented by someone of your skill level.

 Piet, always good to hear from you my friend. I guess by the time all that other rigging is on no one will notice the thicker size of those two ropes.

Jeff, yes 2017 was a tough year. I think I was down more than I was well enough to do much work all year. I pray this year will be better.

Denis, still thinking about the rolled up hammocks. I must not be searching right, cant find enough on them to see what they are supposed to look like and how to do them.

 

Jesse 

 

 

Edited by JesseLee

 Current build: Syren : Kit- Model Shipways

 

Side project: HMS Bounty - Revel -(plastic)

On hold: Pre-owned, unfinished Mayflower (wood)

 

Past builds: Scottish Maid - AL- 1:50, USS North Carolina Battleship -1/350  (plastic),   Andromede - Dikar (wood),   Yatch Atlantic - 14" (wood),   Pirate Ship - 1:72 (plastic),   Custom built wood Brig from scratch - ?(3/4" =1'),   4 small scratch builds (wood),   Vietnamese fishing boat (wood)   & a Ship in a bottle

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

look in some of the U.S.S. Constitution builds and even in Dafi's Victory project {look back in his log a bit for his take on them}.   you could even cut some light cloth........rectangles 10 mm X 15 mm {seems like a good size}..........paint them with diluted white glue,  roll them up and then fold them over {5 mm}....allow them to dry like that.  my proportions may be off,  so you might have to experiment a little.   look at Usedtosail's Constitution log - page 30....

 

 

I yam wot I yam!

finished builds:
Billings Nordkap 476 / Billings Cux 87 / Billings Mary Ann / Billings AmericA - reissue
Billings Regina - bashed into the Susan A / Andrea Gail 1:20 - semi scratch w/ Billing instructions
M&M Fun Ship - semi scratch build / Gundalow - scratch build / Jeanne D'Arc - Heller
Phylly C & Denny-Zen - the Lobsie twins - bashed & semi scratch dual build

Billing T78 Norden

 

in dry dock:
Billing's Gothenborg 1:100 / Billing's Boulogne Etaples 1:20
Billing's Half Moon 1:40 - some scratch required
Revell U.S.S. United States 1:96 - plastic/ wood modified / Academy Titanic 1:400
Trawler Syborn - semi scratch / Holiday Harbor dual build - semi scratch

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sailor I really don't know yet. I don't have much money for kits and running out of space for large models. Been thinking about doing some Ship-in-bottles again.

 

Denis, been Experimenting. Have no idea what kind of cloth this is, something I have saved for things like this. I mixed white glue and water with a drop of tan and black acrylic paint to give it a dingy look. Rolled it up after coating it with the glue mixture. When it dried enough I cut a few pieces out and folded them over. (Sorry for the horrible focus on that picture) I tried them in the hammock crane netting. I've seen them turned both ways online, tried fitting them both ways. Would like from feedback. What do they look like? Are they too big? Stick up too far? What should I try different?

 

Jesse

DSCN3169.JPG

DSCN3170.JPG

DSCN3172.JPG

DSCN3173.JPG

Edited by JesseLee

 Current build: Syren : Kit- Model Shipways

 

Side project: HMS Bounty - Revel -(plastic)

On hold: Pre-owned, unfinished Mayflower (wood)

 

Past builds: Scottish Maid - AL- 1:50, USS North Carolina Battleship -1/350  (plastic),   Andromede - Dikar (wood),   Yatch Atlantic - 14" (wood),   Pirate Ship - 1:72 (plastic),   Custom built wood Brig from scratch - ?(3/4" =1'),   4 small scratch builds (wood),   Vietnamese fishing boat (wood)   & a Ship in a bottle

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

stick up to far would be the better assumption........I think the way the first two are set in place looks better too.   you've got the right idea ;)   as long as they don't spread the netting out of shape,  they will look fine.  that looks like the same sail cloth that I got with the Gothenborg kit.   I may have to do the same thing when I get around to the United States and the Connie  ;)    what your doing passes muster in my book :) 

I yam wot I yam!

finished builds:
Billings Nordkap 476 / Billings Cux 87 / Billings Mary Ann / Billings AmericA - reissue
Billings Regina - bashed into the Susan A / Andrea Gail 1:20 - semi scratch w/ Billing instructions
M&M Fun Ship - semi scratch build / Gundalow - scratch build / Jeanne D'Arc - Heller
Phylly C & Denny-Zen - the Lobsie twins - bashed & semi scratch dual build

Billing T78 Norden

 

in dry dock:
Billing's Gothenborg 1:100 / Billing's Boulogne Etaples 1:20
Billing's Half Moon 1:40 - some scratch required
Revell U.S.S. United States 1:96 - plastic/ wood modified / Academy Titanic 1:400
Trawler Syborn - semi scratch / Holiday Harbor dual build - semi scratch

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lovely work Jesse, seems like I've missed a fair amount of progress.  Love the way the hammock nettings turned out.

Cheers,
 
Jason


"Which it will be ready when it is ready!"
 
In the shipyard:

HMS Jason (c.1794: Artois Class 38 gun frigate)

Queen Anne Royal Barge (c.1700)

Finished:

HMS Snake (c.1797: Cruizer Class, ship rigged sloop)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes I thought about that too. The reason I tried the paint is because i noticed my cup of water I rinse my paint brushes in had a faint tint to it like a wash when weathering wood. I used this method when weathering my sails on my Scottish Maid build and it worked very well. It is more like a very lightly tinted water than paint when it is this watered down. Since I had to mix the 50/50 water & glue anyway I used this paint tinted water. Still playing with it though.

 

Jesse

 Current build: Syren : Kit- Model Shipways

 

Side project: HMS Bounty - Revel -(plastic)

On hold: Pre-owned, unfinished Mayflower (wood)

 

Past builds: Scottish Maid - AL- 1:50, USS North Carolina Battleship -1/350  (plastic),   Andromede - Dikar (wood),   Yatch Atlantic - 14" (wood),   Pirate Ship - 1:72 (plastic),   Custom built wood Brig from scratch - ?(3/4" =1'),   4 small scratch builds (wood),   Vietnamese fishing boat (wood)   & a Ship in a bottle

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Been playing with them some more. Made them a little shorter. Are they still too high? I really don't know much about these.

 

Jesse

DSCN3174.JPG

 Current build: Syren : Kit- Model Shipways

 

Side project: HMS Bounty - Revel -(plastic)

On hold: Pre-owned, unfinished Mayflower (wood)

 

Past builds: Scottish Maid - AL- 1:50, USS North Carolina Battleship -1/350  (plastic),   Andromede - Dikar (wood),   Yatch Atlantic - 14" (wood),   Pirate Ship - 1:72 (plastic),   Custom built wood Brig from scratch - ?(3/4" =1'),   4 small scratch builds (wood),   Vietnamese fishing boat (wood)   & a Ship in a bottle

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Meanwhile I've been working on the Bowsprit rigging. 

 

Jesse

DSCN3158.JPG

DSCN3155.JPG

DSCN3154.JPG

 Current build: Syren : Kit- Model Shipways

 

Side project: HMS Bounty - Revel -(plastic)

On hold: Pre-owned, unfinished Mayflower (wood)

 

Past builds: Scottish Maid - AL- 1:50, USS North Carolina Battleship -1/350  (plastic),   Andromede - Dikar (wood),   Yatch Atlantic - 14" (wood),   Pirate Ship - 1:72 (plastic),   Custom built wood Brig from scratch - ?(3/4" =1'),   4 small scratch builds (wood),   Vietnamese fishing boat (wood)   & a Ship in a bottle

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

they look fine Jesse........they give the sailors some 'duck'in' room.   mass produce at will!   bow spirit and boom looks super.   your mov'in right along...so good to see  ;) 

I yam wot I yam!

finished builds:
Billings Nordkap 476 / Billings Cux 87 / Billings Mary Ann / Billings AmericA - reissue
Billings Regina - bashed into the Susan A / Andrea Gail 1:20 - semi scratch w/ Billing instructions
M&M Fun Ship - semi scratch build / Gundalow - scratch build / Jeanne D'Arc - Heller
Phylly C & Denny-Zen - the Lobsie twins - bashed & semi scratch dual build

Billing T78 Norden

 

in dry dock:
Billing's Gothenborg 1:100 / Billing's Boulogne Etaples 1:20
Billing's Half Moon 1:40 - some scratch required
Revell U.S.S. United States 1:96 - plastic/ wood modified / Academy Titanic 1:400
Trawler Syborn - semi scratch / Holiday Harbor dual build - semi scratch

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, JesseLee said:

Been playing with them some more. Made them a little shorter. Are they still too high? I really don't know much about these.

 

Have a look at Nills' log of the Pegasus

 

Nice spearhead on your bow

Carl

"Desperate affairs require desperate measures." Lord Nelson
Search and you might find a log ...

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

same scale but different size vessel......still in the ballpark  ;) 

I yam wot I yam!

finished builds:
Billings Nordkap 476 / Billings Cux 87 / Billings Mary Ann / Billings AmericA - reissue
Billings Regina - bashed into the Susan A / Andrea Gail 1:20 - semi scratch w/ Billing instructions
M&M Fun Ship - semi scratch build / Gundalow - scratch build / Jeanne D'Arc - Heller
Phylly C & Denny-Zen - the Lobsie twins - bashed & semi scratch dual build

Billing T78 Norden

 

in dry dock:
Billing's Gothenborg 1:100 / Billing's Boulogne Etaples 1:20
Billing's Half Moon 1:40 - some scratch required
Revell U.S.S. United States 1:96 - plastic/ wood modified / Academy Titanic 1:400
Trawler Syborn - semi scratch / Holiday Harbor dual build - semi scratch

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Remember that they were bed rolls. So if you want to do the math. How much is 6 ft in this scale. Personally I think they are fine.

Current Builds - 18th Century Longboat, MS Syren

Completed Builds - MS Bluenose, Panart BatteStation Cross section, Endevour J Boat Half Hull, Windego Half Hull, R/C T37 Breezing Along, R/C Victoria 32, SolCat 18

On the shelf - Panart San Felipe, Euromodel Ajax, C.Mamoli America, 

 

Its a sailor's Life for me! :10_1_10:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just catching up on your log. Great progress. It really like the work on the bow sprit. 

Jean-Philippe (JP)

 


 

Current build: SyrenRattlesnake (Scratch built)

 

:dancetl6:Please visit and subscribe to my YouTube Channel

 

On Hold: MayflowerHMS Victory Cross Section
Completed:   Armed Virginia Sloop, Viking ship,  The Flyer, Pilot BoatKrabbenkutterMarie-JeanneSloup, The Smasher

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jesse - There were 3 purposes for these rolls in the cranes as you have them -

1. They needed airing out. Things got pretty smelly below decks. So smelly that they would burn pots of Tobacco as a room freshener!

2. Since most sailors could not swim they worked as life preservers. they weren't very good at this. They would most often float for about 1 hr. but it was better than nothing.

3. As mentioned above they did help somewhat with splinters. More damage was done to human skin from wood splinter than from any cannon ball. They also would stop grape shot.

 

The bosun would require that they were rolled very tight and tied with a marlinspike hitch. This continued in the Royal Navy until the early 20th century.

 

PS if they didn't have tobacco available they would use pots of vinegar! Now imagine Vinegar as an air freshener?!

Current Builds - 18th Century Longboat, MS Syren

Completed Builds - MS Bluenose, Panart BatteStation Cross section, Endevour J Boat Half Hull, Windego Half Hull, R/C T37 Breezing Along, R/C Victoria 32, SolCat 18

On the shelf - Panart San Felipe, Euromodel Ajax, C.Mamoli America, 

 

Its a sailor's Life for me! :10_1_10:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jesse -

Here is a picture of a model from the Russian Naval Museum in St. Petersburg showing hammock rolls.  I don't know if the Russians rolled their hammocks differently than the Americans, but at least this might be of some help.  Your SYREN build is looking very nice.  How many times have you snagged your arm on that long bowsprit already?  I'm looking forward to more pictures etc.

 

<<Gary>>

 

 

DSC07222.jpg

current build: SYREN

nearly done:  Fair American, Benjamin W. Latham

future builds:  Emma C. Berry

completed builds:  Rattlesnake, Newsboy, Sultana

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Greetings JesseLee. While enjoying going over log I noted your interesting efforts storing the hammocks in the racks.

For some reason I always thought the hammocks were stored athwart the rack about 90 degrees from what your are showing.

I did some research but couldn't find much to show the proper storage method. I guess it could be based upon the

Captain's will like so many other variations.

Nice work on your Syren.

Regards, Harley

Cheers, Harley<p 

                     

 

Under Construction:       USS Curtis Wilbur DDG-54 1/200 by ILoveKit

Completed:                     F-35A 1/48 by Tamiya

                                        USS Atlanta CL-51 1/350 by Very Fire 

                                    Liberty Ship John W. Brown 1/350 by Trumpeter

                                    HMS Spiraea K-08 1/350 

                                    USS Arizona BB-39 1/200 by Trumpeter/Mk1 Design

                                 HMS Sir Gareth 1/350 by Starling Models

                                  USS Missouri BB-63 1945 1/350 by Joy-Yard, 9/11/21

                                  USS Indianapolis CA-35 1945 1/350 by Trumpeter

                                  USS Kidd DD-661, 1945, 1/350, on The Sullivans kit by Trumpeter

                                  USS Alaska CB-1, 1/350, Hobby Boss, Circa 2/1945

                          Brig Syren 1/64 Model Shipways, Wood

Started,On Hold:     Frigate Confederacy 1/64 Model Shipways, Wood

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks everybody. Tips and info are always welcome. This is something I know very little about so I feel like I'm stumbling around in the dark with these.

 

Hmm, interesting Gary, I wonder? I tried to look this stuff up but find very little info so I've gone on the few builds here on MSW I could find.  (I've snagged the bowsprit only 3 or 4 times and make 1 repair so far!)

 

Harley, I wondered that myself, saw both ways on models on Google searches. My hammock cranes and netting are very narrow and they fit better this way. Another thing to consider that I have been thinking about today is how many are needed? I cant find a number on the crew of the Syren. More can be crammed in turning them the other way but on a ship of this size is that needed? Anyone out there know?

 

I have been tying them which is also taking forever and the whole time I'm wondering am I doing all this wrong somehow and will i have to do all this all over again?

 

Jesse 

DSCN3176.JPG

 Current build: Syren : Kit- Model Shipways

 

Side project: HMS Bounty - Revel -(plastic)

On hold: Pre-owned, unfinished Mayflower (wood)

 

Past builds: Scottish Maid - AL- 1:50, USS North Carolina Battleship -1/350  (plastic),   Andromede - Dikar (wood),   Yatch Atlantic - 14" (wood),   Pirate Ship - 1:72 (plastic),   Custom built wood Brig from scratch - ?(3/4" =1'),   4 small scratch builds (wood),   Vietnamese fishing boat (wood)   & a Ship in a bottle

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok, now I found online that she had a crew of 120 Officers and enlisted. Not sure how many were officers but wouldn't that mean that less than 120 hammocks are needed? Do you fill the netting up with them even if it is more than needed?

 

Jesse

 Current build: Syren : Kit- Model Shipways

 

Side project: HMS Bounty - Revel -(plastic)

On hold: Pre-owned, unfinished Mayflower (wood)

 

Past builds: Scottish Maid - AL- 1:50, USS North Carolina Battleship -1/350  (plastic),   Andromede - Dikar (wood),   Yatch Atlantic - 14" (wood),   Pirate Ship - 1:72 (plastic),   Custom built wood Brig from scratch - ?(3/4" =1'),   4 small scratch builds (wood),   Vietnamese fishing boat (wood)   & a Ship in a bottle

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If ypou know the type or rate of vessel you should be able to get that number. You will find it here

 

You posted just before me ...

Darn wrong syren, but the page might be useful in future

Edited by cog

Carl

"Desperate affairs require desperate measures." Lord Nelson
Search and you might find a log ...

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, JesseLee said:

Ok, now I found online that she had a crew of 120 Officers and enlisted. Not sure how many were officers but wouldn't that mean that less than 120 hammocks are needed? Do you fill the netting up with them even if it is more than needed?

 

Jesse

 

Only those hammocks which are used are put in the netting, so the actual number of sailors and marines

Carl

"Desperate affairs require desperate measures." Lord Nelson
Search and you might find a log ...

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Carl,  I’m afraid the link is to a different Syren than Jesse is building!

Doug

Current BuildsBluenose II - AKrabbenkutter / Prince de Neufchatel / Essex Cross-section / Syren / Barque Stefano / Winchelsea / Half Hull / Maria HF31 - Dusek / Bandirma - Turkmodel

On the Shelf: Santisima Trinidad and Cross Section / HMS Cutter Alert / Tender AVOS / Confederacy

Suspended Build: Bluenose II - Billing Boats Nr 600 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jesse - Yeah, but I seem to remember when visiting HMS Victory being told that each sailor had TWO hammocks...one to use and one to air out :o.  Seems to me that the key thing is that you fill the netting with hammocks.  There is the famous quote that "all models are wrong; some are useful".  It was aimed at mathematical models but certainly applies equally to ship models.  Here is a link to a page of a book on model ship building that addresses hammocks and hammock netting.  The illustrations look very similar to the work you have done on SYREN.  This certainly is a learning experience, isn't it.  Here is the link:

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=5nrXLkfLBGcC&pg=PA202&lpg=PA202&dq=hammocks+on+ships&source=bl&ots=HeLveDcnoX&sig=s3kiErMFCSs7m2EGNQAIm3Q2MSY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiB55Ox1NPYAhVlct8KHX1ED-oQ6AEIngEwFw#v=onepage&q=hammocks on ships&f=false

Edited by GaryKap

current build: SYREN

nearly done:  Fair American, Benjamin W. Latham

future builds:  Emma C. Berry

completed builds:  Rattlesnake, Newsboy, Sultana

Link to comment
Share on other sites

besides.....you never know......they could have friends over  ;) 

I yam wot I yam!

finished builds:
Billings Nordkap 476 / Billings Cux 87 / Billings Mary Ann / Billings AmericA - reissue
Billings Regina - bashed into the Susan A / Andrea Gail 1:20 - semi scratch w/ Billing instructions
M&M Fun Ship - semi scratch build / Gundalow - scratch build / Jeanne D'Arc - Heller
Phylly C & Denny-Zen - the Lobsie twins - bashed & semi scratch dual build

Billing T78 Norden

 

in dry dock:
Billing's Gothenborg 1:100 / Billing's Boulogne Etaples 1:20
Billing's Half Moon 1:40 - some scratch required
Revell U.S.S. United States 1:96 - plastic/ wood modified / Academy Titanic 1:400
Trawler Syborn - semi scratch / Holiday Harbor dual build - semi scratch

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Regarding the hammocks, one source I read said each hammock had seven (too much work at this scale) lashings and then they had a gage that

the hammock had to fit through before it was stored in the netting otherwise the seaman had to retie it.

Wikipedia shows the correct brig with the same crew of 120.

Cheers, Harley

Cheers, Harley<p 

                     

 

Under Construction:       USS Curtis Wilbur DDG-54 1/200 by ILoveKit

Completed:                     F-35A 1/48 by Tamiya

                                        USS Atlanta CL-51 1/350 by Very Fire 

                                    Liberty Ship John W. Brown 1/350 by Trumpeter

                                    HMS Spiraea K-08 1/350 

                                    USS Arizona BB-39 1/200 by Trumpeter/Mk1 Design

                                 HMS Sir Gareth 1/350 by Starling Models

                                  USS Missouri BB-63 1945 1/350 by Joy-Yard, 9/11/21

                                  USS Indianapolis CA-35 1945 1/350 by Trumpeter

                                  USS Kidd DD-661, 1945, 1/350, on The Sullivans kit by Trumpeter

                                  USS Alaska CB-1, 1/350, Hobby Boss, Circa 2/1945

                          Brig Syren 1/64 Model Shipways, Wood

Started,On Hold:     Frigate Confederacy 1/64 Model Shipways, Wood

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just found this picture of a 1/64 HMS Victory built in Europe. Lots more pictures available. The model is magnificent. Check out the hammocks. Most of the rest of them are covered by tarps. That would be an easier way of simulating the hammocks.

Cheers, Harley

victory hammocks.jpg

Cheers, Harley<p 

                     

 

Under Construction:       USS Curtis Wilbur DDG-54 1/200 by ILoveKit

Completed:                     F-35A 1/48 by Tamiya

                                        USS Atlanta CL-51 1/350 by Very Fire 

                                    Liberty Ship John W. Brown 1/350 by Trumpeter

                                    HMS Spiraea K-08 1/350 

                                    USS Arizona BB-39 1/200 by Trumpeter/Mk1 Design

                                 HMS Sir Gareth 1/350 by Starling Models

                                  USS Missouri BB-63 1945 1/350 by Joy-Yard, 9/11/21

                                  USS Indianapolis CA-35 1945 1/350 by Trumpeter

                                  USS Kidd DD-661, 1945, 1/350, on The Sullivans kit by Trumpeter

                                  USS Alaska CB-1, 1/350, Hobby Boss, Circa 2/1945

                          Brig Syren 1/64 Model Shipways, Wood

Started,On Hold:     Frigate Confederacy 1/64 Model Shipways, Wood

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for all the input. I guess I'm doing it right enough to be ok. 

 

Jesse

 Current build: Syren : Kit- Model Shipways

 

Side project: HMS Bounty - Revel -(plastic)

On hold: Pre-owned, unfinished Mayflower (wood)

 

Past builds: Scottish Maid - AL- 1:50, USS North Carolina Battleship -1/350  (plastic),   Andromede - Dikar (wood),   Yatch Atlantic - 14" (wood),   Pirate Ship - 1:72 (plastic),   Custom built wood Brig from scratch - ?(3/4" =1'),   4 small scratch builds (wood),   Vietnamese fishing boat (wood)   & a Ship in a bottle

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...