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Frégate d'18 par Sané , la Cornélie


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Thanks all for the likes and comments. Too true, Druxey, too true. I'm learning much from this project.

 

Made a mistake and put an earlier drawing in the last post. Substituted the correct one. Here's what the second plan set will include. Still have to do the stern elevation on the body plan for this, as well as the deck outlines on the half-breadth, but that should be just fiddly bits. Have all the reference lines and offsets done, just need to do the curves.

 

Then do the three scales; French, British, and Metric and ... finis. Whew !!

 

post-1377-0-54856200-1454853584_thumb.jpg

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Okey dokey, then. The pretty profile plans are finished and scales added. Top is French pieds du Roi, bottom is English feet. Fairly sure I got the scaling right so that pouces and inches scale as well.

 

I still have marking, labeling, and annotations, to do on the "techie" version, with all the reference lines, buttock detail, and bears, oh my, but that's fiddly bits. Then I have to figure out how to save it in a properly scaled pdf file so people can use it.

 

post-1377-0-61236500-1455296314_thumb.jpg

 

I wouldn't mind some input, though. I'm looking at 1:48 scale. My drawing space is 1:12, so I have lots of room to maneuver. Final, published, scale recommendations will be heartily appreciated. Also, suggestions as to additions to the basic lines plans are welcome. I'm used to doing 30-60 foot offshore racing sailboats. This is my first attempt at something of this scale and genre and need all the help I can get.

 

Thanks. John

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Better and better each time, John. If you are offering plans, I imagine 1:48 and 1:72 would be popular. For those with limited space, 1:96 as well? Apart from a general lines plan, folk might want profile (internal deck arrangements), lofted frames, and deck plans. The really ambitious will hope to see masts, spars and rigging plans as well, if you want to go there.

Be sure to sign up for an epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series  http://trafalgar.tv

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Looking Brilliant! :) For this plan, I would recommend adding a touch more detail on the transom and potentially to the headrails too.

These images of the Armide-class Flore model show that each individual moulding on the quarter galleries/transom/head have detail and varying levels of protrusion, rather than simply being flat. While of course there are way too many carvings on this model to attempt to replicate on your plan, if some more detail could be added to the moldings in the plan at the bow/stern, it could add a lot of detail to any model even in the absence of much in the way of carvings.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/66/Flore_img_0338.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Flore_img_0336.jpg

 

I made a 3d model of an 'average' early Sane 18pdr frigate from the plans of the Proserpine and Hebe, with some details drawn from the plans of Sybille & Venus. If what I'm suggesting isn't clear from the Flore model, hopefully one can see the rounded surfaces and different layers within each molding in these images

 

https://photos-5.dropbox.com/t/2/AACpDjOwsJzrA2Bg32oofV8EHZ0POKqf_DmNBbyRXbCsgw/12/43901618/jpeg/32x32/1/_/1/2/Hebe32.JPG/EP3VyiEYy1ogBygH/gAKop8o2Bi6FAaCDDPpkV9RwIv3hEMkCaMpdSEyZjLw?size=1280x960&size_mode=3

 

https://photos-2.dropbox.com/t/2/AABdmABsusgn0iv31YUzOV46Kw8ug4U-Tjf-aFvi31sMHw/12/43901618/jpeg/32x32/1/_/1/2/Hebe44.JPG/EP3VyiEYy1ogBygH/xzPnzK9pGMfg1spw9j7LNnVwWeSK17D5fB15qLfXS5k?size=1280x960&size_mode=3

 

Really great work on this plan! 

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Figurehead was a representation of Vesta (Hestia), the goddess of home, hearth, chastity, and familial virtue, hair braided into a wreath, in Roman fashion, left arm cocked up and her hand holding the “vessel of sacred fire”. Not determinable, vessel could have been a cup, or a cone-shaped torch made of elm rods, both are iconographically valid.

 

Fanciful carving motifs were elm (one of Vesta’s symbols) and believe it or not, the lilly. The notes say fleur de lis, but whether the classic symbol or another, more graphically correct, is unknown. I tend to opt for the second, since the iconography is of the Virgin Mary, that took on many of Vesta’s virtues and whose symbol is the lilliy. Bad enough that one puts references to the Virgin on a Revolutionary ship, without casting her symbols as artifacts of the Ancien Régime.

 

The stern carving is very briefly described. Cornelia seated, her left arm extended to embrace the children, her right arm held out in negation of the crown [of Ptolemy]. The children would have been Tiberius and Gaius Graccus. The children’s description is not noted – cherubs with symbols of the tribunate? Actual ages? With symbols? Nothing as to who/what is offering Ptolemy’s crown. Presumably it’s some guy, so as to balance the carving density of the children on the other side.

 

Anyhoo, that’s what’s there. Problem is, I can’t draw worth crap; can draft, just can’t draw. On my best day, it might be good enough for South Park, so you know what I mean.

 

Looking for someone who can implement these images. They will get full recognition.

 

Otherwise, what ya see is gonna have to be what ya get.

 

John

Edited by JohnE
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Aha, I don't mean carvings in that sense! That does sound like a number of unusually conservative motifs for a ship built before the Bourbon Restoration, though. In the Image below, I've highlighted the parts I am talking about for adding detail in red. Base image is of HMS Anson borrowed from this thread: http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/828-64-gun-ship-anson-build-in-1781-in-plymonth/

 

Image:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/v1w7eiuxop6a64h/Anson-modified.jpg?dl=0

 

The lines would be exactly as straight/slightly curved as what you already have, there would just be more of them.

Boudriot's Venus plans include similar details, and might make a decent reference for placement, if its something you feel would be appropriate to include

Edited by CaptArmstrong
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Okay. Got it, CaptArmstrong. Yes, I can do that. Justice and Cornélie were both originaly built Virginie class ships, from the same yard that did Virginie (Brest). I have the NMM plans of Virginie that include much of that detail. Very similar to Boudriot's Venus, but a 10 years later class and so with particular detail differences, but substantially much of a muchness. I can use both references to advantage. Thank you.

 

John

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Thanks John! :)  One of the unique features of the La Renomme model is the upright nature of her counter timbers - practically no rake at all. Your sail plan shows the same characteristic. Sane ships usually had a great, gracefully looking rake. One thing that I can not determine, based on the dozen or so photographs that I have seen,  about the La Renomme Model, is whether she had a beak-head bulkhead, of a full bow. If anyone sees the model in person, place make note! :)

For uss frolick.

 

I was doing some double checking of values and was looking through the devis of the Pallas, when right at the top of page 181 was the heading, in Sane’s handwriting:

 

Releve du trace a la Salle des fregates la Pallas, l’Arethuse, et la Renommee, en construction a la basse-Indre, et la Clorinde en Construction a Paimboeuf. [l’Arethuse was lined-through and l’Elbe annotated above it]

 

There are marginal notes, written by Sane, that specifically refer to Renommee (and Pallas, Elbe, Clorinde) and some minor departures made therefrom by the next series of Nantes vessels; Ariane, Nymphe, Meduse (1810 launches).

 

On pages 184 and 185, there are sections entitled “Acastillage [sic] de la Proue” and “Acastillage de la Poupe”. I am confident she had a beakhead bulkhead. The bow timbers topped off at the standard location approximately 3pi 6po above the level of the main (gun) deck. Station VII (beakhead) timbers extend to the nominal drift. A beakhead bulkhead is strongly indicated.

 

As to her transom, the Pallas class was “straightened-up”. Hard to say when this happened; maybe somewhere in the Hortense class, or perhaps with the ‘Reglement’ in the Pallas class. Earlier designs (Hebe/Venus and Virginie) had an elegant 30 degree rake to the transom. Hortense is indeterminate. Pallas had a 20 degree rake. The same things happened with steeve, sheer, and tumblehome. Stern timbering was identical to earlier vessels except for the degree of vertical rake.

 

From all this, I am inclined to view the Renommee model as somewhat “fanciful” in its details. Pallas, Elbe, Renommee were the lead ships of the ‘Reglement’ and were built side-by-side, at basse-Indre, and launched within 3 months of one another. They were closely monitored (viz, Sane’s notes on comparison with the next launched ships), so there would not be any opportunity for changes, at least not without major annotations to the Releve.

 

I submit that Renommee was a typical Sane frigate when she was captured and taken into British service as Java.

 

Humbly submitted. John

Edited by JohnE
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Thanks to everyone for your kind comments. I have only been in the modelling world for a couple, three, years, so some of my things might seem a bit rough around the edges. I am very appreciative of the interest and assistance I have received from people on the NRG forum. You folks are the tops.

 

Just for grins, I thought it appropriate to show the source for my take on the Renommee. Having these documents is valuable, but the really cool part is reading through them and getting to the end and, ... there it is ... signé Sané. Can't imagine a bigger thrill for an amateur historian.

 

post-1377-0-90522700-1456420120_thumb.jpg

 

ps. my photos of documents in SH321 and SH 325 with the kind permission of .le Service historique de la Défense.

 

John

Edited by JohnE
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Research is a fun thing just by itself, isn't it?

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD           Triton Cross-Section   

 NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit                                                                            HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

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Bit more marginal progress on the profile. Added some moulding to the rails and the quarter galleries, for CaptArmstrong. It's a bit crude but he's right, it does add a skoosh of pizzaz. Showing a peek of the cabestan on the QD. I'll have that full-view on the internal profile plan. Also saw that Vial has stanchions bracketing the entry port, so I put some in there as well.

 

Thing this plan view is getting to the diminishing returns stage, so off to the internal detail profile. Need to have something suitably close to complete for when Bava wants to do a 3D of her.

 

Still no carving art, but have recieved an offer of assistance that can't be refused. I think she's going to be a beauty.

 

J

 

post-1377-0-35935100-1456770406_thumb.jpg

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She already is a beauty, John,  a beautiful french lady.

 

And it looks like this plan is going to be an absolute joy to work with :)

 

Edit:

 

Looks like the original plan for La Cornélie has been found in the archives...your version is spot on, John!

 

post-395-0-67879100-1456782508_thumb.jpg

 

Why Sané is mis-spelled Johné and it has a scale with french and british feet is still a mistery for historians, though.

Edited by Bava
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Crikey.. I just now saw Bava's edit.   Druxey's right, John.. go to the head and I'll add have a tall cold one.   :cheers:

Edited by mtaylor

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD           Triton Cross-Section   

 NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit                                                                            HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

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You guys crack me up. That's beautiful Bava. I especially like the wine stains, makes me feel right at home. Could have been that night when me and the Admiral were getting frisky with some new Beaujolais. Thanks for doing that. I'm going to print and frame it.

 

Thought I would post the Rochefort plan, since I talk about it enough. Comparing the plans shows some of the anomalies I've been having to deal with. Rochefort shows her pierced 13. But the Virginie class was pierced 14 (viz, NMM plan of Virginie) as well as Boudriot's Venus. I pierced Cornélie 14 and positioned the sabords according to Sané's Devis. They follow along well and the 14th plopped right into the blank space in the Chambre du Commandant; so move the bed, Dude.

post-1377-0-63892400-1456850737_thumb.jpg

The head and bow profile of the Rochefort Justice is ugly as sin; short, high, choppy, truncated, mumph. The Virginie plan shows a much different bow profile and one that is reminiscent of the Venus. The Pallas class Eregon plan has a similar elegant bow profile. Even the Armide exhibits that elongated elegance. So I followed Sané's rake and curvature rules from the gabarit d'etrave of the Devis and stuck a Virginie/Eregon proue on it.

 

Topside details are also very much a hybrid. Mine are a mix of Justice, Venus, Eregon and Vial du Clairbois, Pl 2. There's lots more detail in the white paper that accompanies the basic plan set, about the ship and the whys and wherefores of her provenance and the departures therefrom. Guess it really is a frégate de 28 Canons de 18 en Batterie, par Johné after all. Thank you all, and Ciao. John

Edited by JohnE
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I may just give the final draught set a ‘bogus’ waterline. Review of the Cornélie Devis and the sailing trials of Citoyen Villemaurin, Capitaine de Vaisseau, shows 5 different waterlines (tirants d’deu) under 5 different load conditions.

 

First isTirant d’eau du batiment absolument: basically push her off the stocks and see how the hull floats. Next is Tirant d’eau ayant des bas mats; basically the hull with “stuff” including the lower masts. Next is something having to do with fully rigged and ballasted and perhaps armed – this page curves into the center of the volume and the text is indecipherable from the image. Next is a similar entry, but one can distinguish “moins deux, moins de biscuit”. This is the first entry that records height of battery. So I presume this is the full-boggie ship awaiting men, water, wine, and stores. Last is Tirant d’eau en charge: fully loaded, good-to-go.

 

Notably, the Tirant d’eau en charge exhibits a height of battery of 6pi, 2po, 4li. Sané puts the battery height at 6pi, 2po, in the Reglement Devis; 1/3 of an inch, not bad.

 

Yes, looks like all of this is empirical. It also looks like French frigates (Sané frigates) trimmed down a bit at the head. There was drag, but only half what you would expect.

 

The documents have pages of blank entries. These were from Plan 1 to 5 of Villemaurin’s tests.Villemaurin’s journals are lost to us. His entries were never transcribed into the Devis document for Cornélie. We have lost much

 

John

Edited by JohnE
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John,

Much has been lost, but much is still around.  I'll also add that much is hidden away and forgotten about as recent discoveries in museums have pointed out.  If you need to include waterlines...I'd only do the last two..   I'd think those would reflect real-world usage.  

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD           Triton Cross-Section   

 NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit                                                                            HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

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Thanks, Mark. I'll adjust the waterline to represent the full-up LWL. That is probably the most useful and will help in coppering. The others will get into the principal dimensions document so people can fiddle with things a bit. They all have values for draft forward, draft aft, and draft in the middle (which is given in the records as simply half the sum of the other two).

 

Interesting to see how the trim changes as all the different components are added. At launch she floats 10po, 7pi, 9li, midships, and draws 3pi, 11po, 6li more aft than forward. 'Ayant des bas mats', she floats 11pi, 10po, midships, and draws 3pi, 9po more aft than forward. Loaded 'moins de biscuit' she floats 16pi, 3po, 10li, midships, and only draws 1pi, 10po, 4li more aft than forward. Fully loaded she floats 16pi, 7po, midships,and only draws 1pi, 10po more aft than forward. Wow, about 50% greater draft midships and differential draft reduced by half.

 

By 'moins de biscuit' time, her trim is pretty stable, only 1/3 of an inch of difference to make up forward, and only about 3 inches of draft left for the final 'stuff'. 'Moins de biscuit' battery height is 6pi, 5po, 6li. Cool beans.

 

J

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  • 3 weeks later...

Boy, oh boy, talk about CAD being useful in design. I provided Bava, one of our forum members, with a scaled preview set of plans, so he could make a 3D model. Little did I know how interesting and valuable that would be.

 

The plans contained some vestigial curves that were used as design aids but were not strictly part of the “official” plan lines. I simply plopped in something and used them as starting points in the iterative process of refining and reconciling body lines vs waterlines vs diagonals in the all-important but not at all well defined stern/buttock area. However, since they were only aids and weren’t part of the official plan lines, I neglected to reconcile them.

 

Doing a hull in 3D lets one slice and dice it along any one of a multitude of planes. Stick in an unreconciled vestigial curve and it just doesn’t compute. Bava found two of those and let me know he had issues with them.

 

I fixed one (not used, but visually informative) and deleted the other (not used) and things are now fair and the lines correspond to each other in all 3 orthogonal views. Woof!

 

Going to have to turn on the obsessive/compulsive part of the brain and get perfectionist over every plan line regardless of its usefulness or ‘official’ character. Everything must be “correct” in 3 space.

 

Thanks Bava. Keep them notes coming. Cornelie thanks you, too.

 

John

 

btw: Христос Воскресе

Edited by JohnE
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  • 2 weeks later...

Ok, finished up the first pass at tweaking. Was reminded of what I have to do by something I saw on SawdustDave’s SoS thread quoting modelshipwright Bill. “Mediocrity will never do. You are capable of something better” – Gordon Hinckley. Darn good advice. I’ve been on Hinckleys.

 

There may be a few other tweaks, depending on what people find and how the buttock line sets project in 3D, but I’m comfy with this as a basic set of lines. Basic plans are 1:48, English/US measure; have gotten pretty good with scaling algorithms, so can also do Pieds du Roi, Pies de Burgos, or metric.

 

Now the fun/hard part begins.

 

post-1377-0-65118100-1459785413_thumb.jpg

post-1377-0-65843700-1459785449_thumb.jpg

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Reconciliation is going very well. I’m keeping extensive notes so when I have a senior moment, I can look up how I did something and why. So far, so good.

 

However, I note some inconsistencies in the buttock region of the diagonals of the half-breadth. They are due primarily to “angular projection” of the fashion frame, the periodicity and center of the last ‘square’ couple (after VIII, but before fillers) and, most importantly, the perspective “view”.

 

Buttocks of French ships are the least well described, and most often frustrating, portions of a model. French plans are rather inconsistent in their depiction of diagonal “view” as a function of other 3-space elements. Even the original sources, like Vial, pass it off. “Mediocrity will never do.” French had their own paradigms for plotting these lines, but that is of interest to historians. Model builders need something more substantive and determinative. So I went back to the well; back to the loaf of bread, actually.

 

Chapelle (and Wayne Kempson) put it succinctly; just slice a bread loaf. Slice along the plane of a diagonal and you get ‘options’. First of all, that plane is not orthogonal to any specific point. It is vertically skewed in accordance with the design rule, so the diagonal line will ‘project’ accordingly. If you do an accurate top-down view, accepting the angular plane-of-cut, you will get one set of curves. These will be ugly in the buttock region, and not in accordance with French practice.

 

Alternatively, once you get a diagonal “slice”, you can lay it down on the horizontal plane (making due allowance for stern to bow vertical shift). This gives another aspect to potential planking bend/flow in this critical area.

 

I know this isn’t how the French did it, neither did the English. But this is the best I can do to present the plans of a representative French frigate in a way that modelers can understand and reproduce.

 

Ok, so another half-breadth with another paradigm and buttock detail after VIII.

 

It seems like my life has zeroed down to massaging French buttocks. That’s ok ‘cause my Admiral is a Chillena and has the perkiest buttocks in the world.

 

John

Edited by JohnE
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Hi Bava. The outside red line on the halfbreadth of the profile file is the line of gun/main deck. The inside red line is the line of gaillards.I have a little problem with l'estain, too. I feel your pain.

 

Boy, oh boy; l’estain is a pain, yeah? Ok, some quick explanation. The fashion frame is simply a ‘cant’ frame, but expressed in the French fashion. It is ‘square’ in concept, but rotated aft by 20 degrees (or thereabouts). It was built super thick so that it could accommodate the compound (double twist) beveling from top to bottom (French were very profligate with wood).

 

post-1377-0-27879300-1460046803_thumb.jpg

 

Diagram shows two view directions and what they give. “A” indicates l’estain, if erected ‘square’. “B” indicates l’estain after rotation through 20 degrees. Curve “B” is what is projected on the body plan. It’s basically a lateral scale of cos(20) – 0.9397 applied to the ‘square’ curve. Curve “C” is the lazy ‘s’ curve of l’estain that appears on the profile plan. The profile curve is snipped at pertinent parts and the ‘square’ curve is scaled laterally by sin(20) – 0.34202. That pretty much reconciles the two orthogonal views (body and profile). I’ll make sure this gets done in the plan set.

 

Diagonals are another matter, entirely, and deserve a separate post with yet more illustrations and explanations.

 

This is good. I would have to have done something like this in explanatory text for the plan set, but this is a better venue and allows for better organization of the final views. Please do not hesitate to comment.

 

John

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