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HMS Blandford by hamilton - FINISHED - from Corel HMS Greyhound - 1:100

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Hello all:

 

I've not yet quite completed the Model Shipways Glad Tidings, but since I've been under the weather today and in no mood to work on the current build, I thought I'd jump into some research, reviewing and trouble-spotting on my next build, Corel's HMS Greyhound.

 

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According to Corel, this kit represents a 20-gun frigate of 1720, and in my initial (albeit solely electronic) research, I did discover a couple of references to a "Greyhound" dating from 1720. However, I also found more common references to a sixth-rate 20-gun frigate built at the Deptford yards and launched in 1719. It seems that the Corel kit could reference one of three historic ships:

 

1. HMS Greyhound (1712) - a 20-gun sixth-rate captured by the Spanish in 1718

 

2. HMS Greyhound (1719) - a 20-gun sixth-rate broken up in 1741

 

3. HMS Greyhound (1720) - a 20-gun sixth rate on which I could find little information.

 

In addition, I found references to a sloop called Greyhound, which is clearly not this vessel, but that has a much more colourful history chasing pirates. The National Maritime Museum also has in its archives the log of a Lieutenant serving on the HMS Greyhound with the dates 1713-1727, dates which overlap all three of these vessels - though it is possible that this is the sloop...

 

In any event, it was only after the 1719 Establishment that the sixth-rates were formally defined:

 

-- 20 guns on the upper deck (6lbs)

-- 364 tonnes

-- 106ft (gundeck); 87ft, 9in (keel)

-- 28ft Beam

-- Complement of 140 officers and men

 

Apparently three sixth-rates were newbuilt to the 1719 specifications, one being Greyhound, while seventeen others were rebuilt to accommodate the Establishment. I suppose the 1719 and 1720 vessels I've found could be one and the same. In any event, the Corel kit corresponds to the most general specifications - full ship rig and 20-guns on the upper deck. Though I found out that technically this type/size of vessel would have been called a "Post Ship", frigates being defined as ships of at least 28 guns....confusion and contradiction abounds!

 

Anyway, that's about all the historical information I could find...now on to the kit....

Edited by hamilton

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I've built several Corel kits and I've enjoyed them all. And when I first opened the box about a year ago I was not disappointed. The wood and parts supplied with the kit are of very high quality and they even include some yellow coloured strips for the outboard bulwarks.


 


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I got a little more concerned when this evening I took a look at the plans and the instruction booklet, and began testing some of the CNC parts against the plans...


 


While Corel's instructions have always been a little off, the plans they provide have always been excellent. Not so here, I think. Four sheets of plans are provided with very general information. These are complemented by a more extensive illustrated instruction book, which is alright at showing basic construction steps. However, when I tested the centre keel against the sheet showing the ship's profile, I was shocked to find how far off it was...Thankfully the kit-supplied part did match the plan containing the CNC templates...however, now I wonder how trustworthy the plans will be for taking measurements during the ship's construction. I'm sure this won't be too much trouble....


 


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A much more troubling thing is that there is no clear belaying plan included here - very disturbing on a fully-rigged ship (indeed the first ship rig I've ever attempted!) Belaying points are all numbered together (so timberheads, e.g., are all numbered "64") with no reference to the run of the lines. When the time comes, I will have to create a detailed belaying plan of my own - no doubt at this point I will be turning to this forum for some advice on how to prepare it accurately!


 


I'm also a little worried about the stern framing - on which there is precious little detail. The measurements of the outboard vertical frames can be taken off the profile plan, but there is no plan drawing of the stern framing itself, only a general drawing in the instruction booklet...


 

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The gunport framing presents a similar issue....

 

I do plan on trashing some of the metal parts provided and scratch building them - the cabin bulkhead, the capstan, the head rails, possibly the ship's boat, etc.

 

In any case, this should be a fun - though potentially frustrating - kit to build. If all goes well it will produce a nice little model. Any and all advice, guidance and commentary is, as always, more than welcome! More in a week or so once I dive in....

hamilton

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Hamilton,

When you're ready....  Meantime, we'll kickback and watch the grass grow.  As you guessed, we're easily distracted.  :P

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Hamilton -  You've chosen what will prove to be a gorgeous subject.  I don't believe she was named Greyhound without reason.  I am looking forward to this build.

 

Sounds like you've taken the right approach in inspecting the kit and getting things sorted out in your mind.  I built the Corel HMS Victory cross section years ago and there were a few challenges but the overall quality was very good and the results just fine.  I'm sure with patience, your 'eye' for perfection and maybe an inquiry or two here on MSW you'll master the mystery of the belaying plan (or lack thereof!).

 

Just one comment on the plans.  I've run into this before myself.  Plans are subject to humidity changes over time.  If your kit is a few years old the plans could have either expanded or shrunken from the time they were printed.  Somewhere on them there should be a scale you can measure to see if you can determine this.  And if you lay them out nicely in your shop and let them sit a week or two they will generally stabilze to your local conditions.  Keep in mind your wood may be doing the same thing!

 

Best of luck on this one!

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Thanks for the comments Mark and Augie - I never realised that plans could be affected by changes in humidity! Unfortunately, I live in the Pacific Northwest where humidity is the rule of the day! Right now it's mild and rainy. Last week it was cold and rainy. And in a month or so it will be warm and rainy before becoming cold and rainy again in June! Then the sun will come out for a couple of days and my plans will return to scale! Can't wait! 

 

In any case I'll check the scale on the plans to see what's what...I've also heard that the scale can be put off incrementally through the printing process....

 

It shouldn't be a problem to muddle through even if the plans are a little off. I've long since learned that you often have to deal with the ship in hand rather than the ship on paper.....Bye for now

hamilton

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Hi there:

 

I've spent a bit of time this past weekend getting deeper into the Greyhound and I have to say the deeper I go the more I realise exactly how vague and unsatisfactory the plans and illustrated instructions are....there is no plan sheet for the rigging - this is all covered in a set of very disappointing drawings which often indicate little about how the lines are to be belayed and breed a lot of confusion....I began today to make my belaying plan - perhaps not essential to do before launching into the build, but why not? I need a break from actual building, but since I can't seem to keep away from the kits, I might as well do something. 

 

In beginning my plan I've already noticed several omissions and errors in the plans/instructions....more to come I suppose....anyway, my past experience of Corel is being soundly defeated on this one....I think someone warned me that this one would be frustrating....anyways....we'll begin in earnest next week.....

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The time you spend laying out a belaying plan certainly won't be wasted and could save some headaches later on. 

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Thanks Augie! I'm hoping it will - I'll be sure to publish it here for the benefit of anyone seeking to build this kit in the future....

hamilton

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Well I've almost completed making the rigging table for Greyhound but I was getting so frustrated with the often random way that Corel has numbered parts and particularly the fact that the plans do not indicate or distinguish between things like belaying pins, timberheads, cleats and so on, that I've decided to generate what I think is a sensible parts list put together in the progressive order of the build.

 

The parts list will essentially allow me to develop a much more detailed view of the build but will ultimately require me to modify the plans and instruction booklet so that I don't get too confused during those times when I have to use them as a reference....Of course it will also mean that I have to completely revise my rigging plan, since the numbering system I used to identify lines, blocks and belaying points was derived from the kit....

 

Anyway, today I put quite a bit of time into the new parts list as well as into the rigging table. Tomorrow I'll complete the parts list, modify the plans, and begin revising the rigging table/belaying plan....

 

This could be a complete waste of time, as well, since one the literature starts arriving I may have to revise everything again! 

 

Once everything gets finalised I will post the rigging table, parts list and belaying plans here for anyone thinking of making this kit in the future

hamilton

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Hamilton,
Greyhound and Blandford were both built at Deptford d/y by the same master shipwright Richard Stacey. Both were commissioned in 1720.
There was very little difference in the as built dimensions of the two ships, Blandford being 1 foot longer.
Greyhound was broken up in 1741 and Blandford was sold in 1742.
We have touched on the rigging aspect of a sixth rate in a separate thread, but personally I would not continue to confuse myself  by trying to make sense of the Corel rigging plans, which probably contain many errors. Clear them from your mind and work from the Blandford book.
James Lees (Masting and Rigging of English ships of war 1625-1860) also includes a belaying plan for a 1719 establishment sixth rate in his book.
 

B.E.

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Hey, I'm an amateur model ship builder working on this model, and I've been wondering whether part 18 should be cut from another plank, or if it is a separate individual part.  Could you clarify this for me?  

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Hi Jackson:

 

Short answer - yes, you cut it from 2mm x 4mm walnut (though if you have a softer wood of the same dimensions lying around, like lime or basswood, I'd use that - no sense using nice walnut for a structural feature that will go completely unseen.

 

Now having said that, there are A LOT of problems that I can foresee in installing this seemingly simple piece - this is part of the overall poor instructions/plans that Corel has included with this kit. So even though it seems straightforward I would approach it with some caution. Let me explain.

 

The beam supports the aft end of the quarterdeck (piece 20) and is shown in the instruction booklet as having a distinct curve (or camber). But since there is no scale drawing of the transom or stern section of the model, there is no telling exactly what this camber is from the plans....it seems that Corel expected us to guess!

 

The solution is actually in part 19, the metal part included for the cabin bulkhead, which supports the forward end of the quarterdeck and the curve of whose top should match that of the beam (18). The top of this part has a very slight camber, which (if you're going to use this part as opposed to scratch building it) should be traced onto a slightly thicker piece of 4mm wide wood - 3mm or 4mm x 4mm would work for this. Trace the camber of part 19 onto the wood strip, cut it to length (using the bulkhead 13 as your reference) and shape just the one side of it. Then cut the opposite edge of the wood flat so that it measures 2mm x 4mm at both ends. It is not necessary to cut the curve into the bottom, since this part is only included to support the quarterdeck and will not be seen. And in not cutting the curve it will be easier to place on the model.

 

I would also do a bit of dry fitting of all these pieces (your shaped part 18, part 19 and the quarterdeck, part 20)  first, to determine that the notches in bulkhead 13, where you lay (18), are even in height with one another and with the cabin bulkhead (which fits between the bulkhead extensions of bulkhead 12). If you find that your quarterdeck is sloping either aft or forward, you'll have to modify the notches in bulkhead 13 where you fit the beam - either sanding them down or shimming them up so that the quarterdeck is nice and even fore and aft.

 

Anyway, sorry for such a long response to a short question! I hope this is helpful. This seems like it's going to be a really nice model when it's done, though given the generally poor quality of the plans it may be more or less frustrating to get there.

 

Though some here might think me foolish for doing so, I've basically begun (and now almost finished) completely re-jigging Corel's numbering system and elaborating a detailed parts list, rigging table and belaying plan. I would be happy to share these with you at any time you begin to get a sense of the inadequacy of Corel's instructions/plans. Using my modified tables involves going through Corel's plans/instructions and making changes to the numbers they include. I'm no artist so there is no graphical dimension to what I've done (except some very crude plan & profile drawings to show belaying points), and it might not make sense to others! But for me it was a good way to identify a number of omissions, inconsistencies and errors in Corel's documentation.

 

My current version of these modified tables (though almost done) is probably going to be heavily modified again once I get Goodwin's Anatomy of the Ship HMS Blandford (a ship nearly identical to Greyhound) from Amazon, which should be shortly....anyway if you PM me an email address I can send these to you once they're complete....don't know if you'll find them useful but...I'm happy to share and to answer any questions too.

 

Do you have a build log going here? You should start one if not!

hamilton

Edited by hamilton

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Thanks so much.  I have to agree with everyone that the building plans are very vague.  Good luck on your build.  I can't wait to see it get started.

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Good evening! 

 

Well, against all sane advice I've pressed on with my complete revision of Corel's documentation. I have now finished my revised parts list and my preliminary rigging tables (the latter is subject to change based on what I learn from the literature I've ordered....). Here are some highlights:

 

1. Corel's instruction booklet gives no indication of the size/length or features included on the masts & spars, so I've added all of those to the list

2. I've also added some features omitted altogether (like spritsail yard jeers, some cannon rigging elements, etc.)

3. I've allowed for the scratch building of several parts (the ship's boat, the f'csl rail, e.g.) - breaking these parts into components

4. The rigging plan is sequential and individualises each rigging element (block, ringbolt, timberhead, deadeye & sheave)

 

I'm not sure that what I've done will be useful to anyone but myself, but if anyone is interested in having it just for reference, I'd be happy to share - send me a PM with your email and I'll get them out (not sure where to "publish" them here and given that it is very "kit specific" I'm not sure how appropriate it is to do so.....)

 

The major issue with my revisions is that they make Corel's plans and instructions superfluous, so it would be hard to use both this and the Corel stuff at the same time. I had thought for a while of redrawing the plans, but I have only done this in order to develop a belaying plan (in 2 sheets, one for the deck and one for the inboard and outboard bulwarks). I figure that if you ignore the numbers on Corel's documentation and just take measurements where necessary these should work....

 

Anyway, perhaps it's nuts to spend so much time doing something like this, and I guess it probably wasn't necessary to have such an extreme reaction to a poor set of plans/instructions...but I already feel better about building this kit now that I've done this - and I found a great number of errors and pitfalls that I feel I can work around having done such a detailed review of the kit....

 

Here are a couple of shots of the deck plan that I made this evening to map out the belaying arrangement based on Corel's drawing and my parts list/rigging table....it's pretty rough....but...

 

hamilton

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Edited by hamilton

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Hi Hamilton, yes this kit will frustrate and annoy, I have made several changes and i dont think they are historically accurate changes I have made but I can live with them. The cat rails are nowhere near the shape they need to be but I found bending them cold was the best method of obtaining the best shape. They did crack in areas but i filled the cracks with a little filler and painted over. Believe me I nearly launched this model against the nearest wall several times it is that maddening. But persist with it. The ships boat is not brilliant but after several attempts I have acheived a reasonable result. You can always spend more time than I did on the ships boat. If you look at my build you will be able to improve in many areas on yours, but I am reasonably satisfied at the result so far. Get several bottles of decent single malt whisky and you will produce a very fine if frustrating model. If I was unsure of anything I just went for it and if I didnt like the results I'd take it off and try again. The shrouds and ratlines have been on and off more times than a brides nightie. Good look and I look forward to your build.   

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Hi Harlequin:

 

Thanks for the encouragement! Most definitely needed with this kit! But you're right - I think it will look great with a few "improvements". I've actually ordered a small plank-on-frame ship's boat kit from model expo which is roughly the same size (about 1/16 off the size of the metal boat included with the kit). It only cost $8.00 so I figured, why not! I was already ordering extra 1/8" eyebolts, black rigging thread, shroud cleats, and a bunch of other stuff, so....

 

I was actually thinking of dealing with that forward rail by tracing the pattern and cutting it out of a slightly thicker-than-it-has-to-be sheet and then sanding it down to a more appropriate thickness...or perhaps doing it in 2 port and starboard sections and just filling the gap between them. 

 

One part of the kit that is extremely vague and that I haven't come to terms with yet is the bowsprit seating....It appears that the bowsprit just kind of goes into the deck....but there is very little guidance from Corel on this....I may throw you a question or two when the time comes, hope you won't mind the interruption to your Bellona (which I'm really looking forward to seeing, by the way). 

 

Thanks again and bye for now - maybe eventually I'll actually start building this kit!!

hamilton

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I've got the seating of the bowsprit in my model wrong, but I really cant be bothered taking it out and re-seating it. You will have to reshape/remove part of the the keel to get it to fit correctly and it eventually sits flush with the modified keel and on top of the figurehead. I also purchase several other ships boats but none looked convincing so i returned to the metal one supplied. It is a very awkward model to work with. I found corels HMS Victory far easier to complete. The plans are full of descrepancies and even the picture on the box is markedly different than the plans are. I too have purchased lots of black rigging. When I build kits I try to use all what is supplied in the kit, I'm a builder who is lazy in that I really cant be bothered scratch building anything unless I break something or lose it. If I can help in any way feel free to ask but I have a sneaky feeling you wont need my help. It will drive you to drink copious ammounts of alcohol but thats one of the benefits of building HMS Greyhound. I'll follow with interest.

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I'm sorry each of you has had such problems with Greyhound.  She is such a beautiful subject.  And I am surprised at Corel as, like harlequin, I had good success with their HMS Victory cross section.  Of course that was 25 years ago.

 

I think you'll enjoy the POB ships boat kit.  Hey, I have ME on speed dial :)

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Well, Harlequin, I never properly learned how to drink whiskey - though I know my way around a Tom Collins or a Manhattan....we'll see how bad it gets!

 

Augie - I have to say that I'm surprised with the low quality of this kit. I've built 3 Corel kits (the Brittany Sloop, the Flattie and the Toulonnaise) and I have the Bellona up on the shelf. The ones I've built were really top notch and the Bellona certainly is of very high quality all around. It seems as if the Greyhound was a bit of a rush-to-market or something - hastily put together and so rather sloppy. The illustrated instructions remind me of the booklet that came with the ME/Amati Bluenose I built last year - also vague and frustrating, though on a much less complicated build. If Corel beefed up the plans (adding at least 3 sheets - one separating out the hull profile/deck plans to give more construction details and showing the bow and stern; one for standing rigging and scale mast details; one for running rigging and spar details) this would be a great kit. The quality of the wood and fittings is up to the usual Corel standard. A bit more effort would make this a truly excellent kit....

 

Anyway, now that Harlequin has pointed out his attempts at using other ship's boats, I'm worried that the one I ordered won't work out....oh well! It's only $8 right? I can't allow myself to have ME on speed dial or I'd be building my boats out a cardboard box....

hamilton

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Hello everyone:

 

So I've completed my revision of the detailed parts list, rigging table and belaying plans for the Corel HMS Greyhound. I would like to offer these to anyone entering into this build (free, obviously), if you would like. I can't promise they will be useful, since they come out of my brain in relation to the inadequacies of the Corel kit as I have perceived them...but they may be of help....

 

Anyway, if anyone wants these, send me a PM and I'll send them on as PDFs. 

hamilton

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Hi there:

 

I've officially begun the Greyhound and can already say that I feel driven to drink, just as Harlequin predicted!! Here's a digest:

 

1. I used the kit-supplied templates of the CNC parts (sheet 4 of the plans) to ascertain how much trimming and shimming the bulkheads needed (given how profoundly off the plans were with respect to the keel, I didn't even bother with that - I'm just going to take the CNC keel as-cut as my baseline reference point and go from there). They all needed something more or less - not unexpected in any kit, I suppose. Here's a representative sample

 

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2. I then began to dry-fit the bulkheads to the keel - focusing my efforts solely on getting a good fit between these parts & not really paying attention to the outboard parts of the keel, the inner parts of the bulkheads (which define the rather skinny lower deck), or the inboard bulkhead extensions. Not to say there isn't any work to be done there - as you can see from this shot

 

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3. It took a couple of evenings work to dry fit all 13 bulkheads. Everything between bulkhead 1 and 8 seemed alright, but when I fit bulkhead 9, I noticed something - the bottom of the bulkhead was significantly higher than the bottom of bulkhead 8, even though both should have hit a (currently imaginary) bearding line at an equal distance from the bottom of the keel...when I first fit it, I thought that there was no way that the bearding line should be sweeping up at that point on the hull...

 

4. When I fit bulkheads 10 and 11, I could easily see that something was wrong - the bottom of bulkhead 10 was at the same level as bulkhead 9, but bulkhead 11 struck at that same imaginary bearding line as bulkhead 8 had done....Check it out.

 

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Having built a number of kits before I've had to do my fair share of shimming the outboard edge of bulkheads to get an even flow of planking, but nothing like this!! My main concern now is that, with no line drawings provided with the kit, I actually have no idea how to shim up these bulkheads and maintain a clean flow of the planking....And if I just follow the bulkhead templates they tell me that these bulkheads are correct, when clearly they are not!!!

 

Another worry is that once these 2 bulkheads are "corrected", I will also need to "correct" the bulkheads aft...not a "worry", I suppose, but just a lot of niggling work with no reference to work from!

 

If this were my first Corel kit I would probably never buy another....Anyway, advice, encouragement, and mail order alcohol (same day delivery if possible) are all welcome at this point.....

hamilton

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Oh brother, something is not right and I am clueless.  At first I though perhaps the slots in those bulkheads were cut incorrectly but no, that wouldn't help.  I hope someone with more knowledge than I chimes in here.  You did well to post this question with photos.

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Hi Hamilton, I'm trying to remember what I did to get round this problem. If memory serves me right I carried on with the build as if the two offending frames were correct. I got as far as trimming the fore and aft frames ready to accept the first planking. I then put temporary planks in 3 or 4 places along the hull but making no attempt to attatch the planks to the two incorrect frames. This gave me a rough idea on the amount of building up of the frames was needed. I used several pieces of 0.5 mm plank I had spare from a previous build to alter the frames, I then used some filler once the first planking had been put in place to make the line of the hull more even where there was a slight dip corresponding to the two offending frames. It was frustrating to do but I achieved a reasonable result. 

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Thanks Augie and Harlequin:

 

Augie - yes, something is definitely not right! If you look at the picture that shows the tops of the bulkhead frames, you'll see that they are all more or less level (though as I mentioned a lot needs to be done here), but at the bottoms of the bulkhead, these two (9 and 10) are roughly 3/16" higher than they ought to be.....

 

Harlequin - your solution makes sense. I've done this same thing on a number of builds, though never with such a gross error. It's going to take a lot of .5mm planks to build this area up, but that is probably the best way to keep the general contour of the bulkhead and thus the lines of the hull....like you, I will proceed with making the framework and not deal with these until I have to at the first planking - when I'll probably also discover some other minor errors. Maybe it's time I learned how to drink whiskey.....

hamilton

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The only other thought would be to cut two new bulkheads....but then you need a wood supply.

 

As far as drinking whiskey, I don't think there's a tutorial on MSW......yet :cheers:

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I nominate Harlequin to start the whiskey tutorial!

 

As for cutting new bulkheads....that would be tough....if there were an accurate (or any) drawing of the hull lines included on the plans I could probably sort it out, but the main issue is tools - I'm a dining room table modeller, so for the present anything involving plugs and copious amounts of saw dust is not something I can really do.....soon though....soon....For now it's shimming and filling....but thanks for the encouragement Augie - it's much appreciated!

hamilton

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Well, I have taken a bit of time this morning juggling work and modelling and have managed to quickly shape the bulkheads to fit the skinny lower deck piece, and widen out the bulkhead slots on the deck for dry-fitting...

 

Of course this revealed a number of other issues with the kit design - some minor, like these:

 

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And some seemingly major, like this:

 

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post-304-0-07842000-1365017742_thumb.jpg

 

It's clear that the bulkhead slots on the deck will need to be modified to fit bulkhead 13. However, given the amount of widening that needs to be done, I'm worried that this will create a lot of instability in the stern framing (those little slots at the aft end of the deck are for the vertical stern frames)....sheesh, Corel! What were you thinking?!

 

Anyway, I would rather this log not turn into a running set of complaints about the quality of the kit....at least these kinds of things present a decent challenge - perhaps a little more "stimulating" than the (probably non-existent) "perfect kit"....

 

Here are a couple of photos of the dry fit to this point....just to add some sense of progress here....

hamilton

 

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Edited by hamilton

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The thin strip lower deck doesnt look too bad once everything is in place. I would at this point colour or stain the frames a darker shade so the white colour of the frames is not as noticeable once the main deck is in place. Lagavullin is a great whisky by the way.... :huh:

Edited by harlequin

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Thanks for the tip Harlequin: Yes there's a lot of prep to do here! I will certainly darken those frames! 


 


Now that I've dry fit everything and marked the bearding and rabbet lines (mostly at a guess), I've noticed that a couple of the forward frames are also well short of the mark.....


 


Also - Harlequin, I've been trying to puzzle out the stern and transom area, specifically trying to imagine the planking of the lower transom (below the decoration) and the counter. Do you think you could post a shot here of the transom on your Greyhound so I can have a peek at how you did it? 


 


I'm just a little worried, since after my modification of the main deck at the stern (so that it would fit onto bulkhead 13) the counter area is now too short or that I'm going to encounter some further problems down the road.....always a possibility! Anyway thanks again for the tip and in advance for the photo!


hamilton


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About us

Modelshipworld - Advancing Ship Modeling through Research

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NRG Mailing Address

Nautical Research Guild
237 South Lincoln Street
Westmont IL, 60559-1917

About the NRG

If you enjoy building ship models that are historically accurate as well as beautiful, then The Nautical Research Guild (NRG) is just right for you.

The Guild is a non-profit educational organization whose mission is to provide support to our members in their efforts to raise the quality of their model shipcraft.

The Nautical Research Guild puts on ship modeling seminars, yearly conferences, and juried competitions. We publish books on ship modeling techniques as well as our world-renowned quarterly magazine, The Nautical Research Journal, whose pages are full of articles by master ship modelers who show you how they build those exquisite details on their models, and by maritime historians who show you what details to build.

Our Emblem

Modelshipworld - Advancing Ship Modeling through Research
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