Jump to content

Gunport Stops - only mentioned by Steel 1805 - Identification ?


Recommended Posts

I wonder about a detail only mentioned by David Steel in 1805 - the "stops" of the ports !

 

He also talkes about "linings" of the stops.  David Antscherl showed these "linings" in TFFM as thin boards, fitted to the inside of the ports timbers (frames and sills) to act as a stop for the port lid (correct ?).

 

Here is, what Steel says:

 

PORT LIDS -

 

Every (in this case) gun-deck port to be fitted with a substantial lid made of English oak -

 

Stops of the ports not less than...........................3 1/2 inches (for an 110 and 98 gun ship as an example)

 

Well-seasoned linings fitted into the stops, thick........................1 1/4 inches

 

Steel gives these spezifications only for ships of two and three decks (110 down to 50 gun ships).

 

No "linings" (mentioned and showed in TFFM) are given for a sloop of war !  The linings there are mentioned in the construction of the half-ports, fitted to such a small vessel (thickness of the deal and it`s lining are given). But no half ports were fitted about 1780.

 

To me as a carpenter this means, that the lining is the line of battens, nailed athwart the deals of the half ports to form this lids as a solid piece like this was done for the regular port lids.

So the next question is, can this be the same task for the regular port lids ?

The vertical lining of the horizontal oak pieces and not the boards to fill the port holes ?

Then the "stops" mentioned by Steel, would make sense, even if they are "not less then 3 1/2 inches" (thickness ???). But this seems too thick. (or not ?)

 

Looking at the width of a port for the three decked ship, Steel gives the following dimensions:

deep = 33 inches

fore and aft = 39 inches

Now, when one would install the "stops" of 3 1/2 inches only to the sides (frames), to act as these are called (stops), this would reduce the width of the port a little bit.  But this is only speculation !?  The port would become more square. (33 to 32 inches)

 

So where does the lining belong to ???  The sides of the port hole or the port lid ???  And if to the port lid, how is this all arranged ???  The lids with the stops and the lining ?

Could not find any drawing, picture or discription !

 

Hope you have an answer.

 

Tom

Edited by archnav

All the best,

Tom

 

(sapere aude)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I found this Foto in a French online album which shows the gun of La Fleuron (Delacroix)

 

There is a strong piece of square wood shown on the lower edge of the port sill.  It seems to be held in Place by two ropes, made fast at the rings of the port lid. This would make sense to hold the lid in place in heavy weather.  So maybe this was also practice in England ?

 

Could this be the answer ?  Is that what Steel meant with "port stop" ?  Then it would really make sense, lining the inside of the port with boards of 1 1/4 inches. This could then be the real "lining".  So the "stop" is not a part of the port lid, nor of the port itself. It would be a extra piece of wood to hold the port lid in place.

 

What do you think ?

 

Greets,   Tom

 

 

post-1509-0-49511300-1453050680_thumb.jpg

All the best,

Tom

 

(sapere aude)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe that 'linings' refers to the inner layer of plank on the port lids. These need to fit the port lid neatly into the stops, which are the pieces that form the rebate around the port on the lower sill and sides.

Be sure to sign up for an epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series  http://trafalgar.tv

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi druxey,

 

Steel refers precisely to the "stops" of the ports to be not less than 3 1/2 inches !

 

When the lining is the inner layer of the port lid, so why does Steel refers them also precisely to the stops and not to the

half port lids (for example) on the upper deck in smaller ships later ?  There, the lining is mentioned in combination with the deal boards of the lids and is written in separated brackets.

Hi writes:  "linings fitted into the stops"   -   so the linings belonging to the stops and not to the lid, correct ???

 

So, when the lining is fitted into the stops, how does this arrangement looked like in the ports ?

 

Where were these 3 1/2 inches (minimum) thick pieces installed and where the linings of 1 1/4 inches ?

 

Could it be, that the stops were put on the sides of the port (frames) and the lining on the upper and lower sills ?

 

This would give the port a nearly square form and, reducing the width of an 39 inches wide port to 32 inches is not as dramatic, as installing this arragement different.

 

The problem was and is the heavy pieces that Steel refers to as the STOPS !

 

When you say, that these stops were fitted into the ports and the lining is the inner layer of the port lids, so the ports themselfes would be reduced to:  26 inches in depth to 32 inches in width ?!  This reduction would have been notably visible by looking at the ports.  These wide edges would have caused a problem to the handling of the gun barrel, at least for the width up and down !  Also it would have been strikingly visible at models.  Here the lining of thinner dimensions is clearly visible and coherent.  So the lining (as is your opinion) of 1 1/4 inches thick plank, would make sense and a perfect match. (See models in the NMM as Bellona for example)

 

What is right now, what is wrong ?  What did Steel mean ?  Can it be, that this is arranged like in the picture above ?

At least this would make sense !  Where else could such a massive piece be installed without being clearly visible,

2 1/4 inches bigger than the lining ???

 

Greets,   Tom

Edited by archnav

All the best,

Tom

 

(sapere aude)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

David Steele, as famous as his works are, is not (never was, as best can be determined) a shipbuilder nor naval architect, but rather an extremely well connected (within the Admiralty) book publisher.  One of life's great mysteries remains - who actually wrote his Naval Architecture?

 

A contemporary source, which is more authoritative only because the author was both a shipbuilder and a naval architect, is Fincham, J. 1825. An Introductory Outline of the Practice of Ship-Building, &c. &c. Directions for the Repairs of Ships. Portsea England. Sold by W. Woodward. http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/009723747(note there is also an 1821 edition available: Fincham, J. 1821. An Introductory Outline of the Practice of Ship-Building, &c. &c. William Woodward,  https://books.google.com/books?id=pKZWAAAAcAAJ )

 

From his 1825 edition, I have extracted the following (sorry, but I have not yet been able to obtain all the figures, but I keep trying!)

 

HALF-PORT (Page 200):  shifting shutters fixed in the stops of those ports, which have no hanging lids. Those to the quarter-deck and forecastle ports are in general in one, and made of two thicknesses of slit deals, and to the ports for the long guns have holes in them for the gun to run out; and those to the upper deck, In two parts called buckler half-ports; for long guns, the lower part is to the center of the gun, when run out and levelled, as they have a hole in them that fits close round the guns ; and to carronades, to the underside of the gun, if not too low, that they may be fixed over them. The lower piece of these half-ports is of fir, and in one piece, to fill up the stops; with a rabbet taken out of its upper edge, to receive the upper part, and with two strengthening bolts driven up and down through it. This piece is in general hung with hinges at the lower part, and kept in its place by sliding bolts. The upper part is made commonly of whole and slit deal, the whole deal up and down, and the slit deal, to cross it, fore and aft.

 

PORT (Page 224): the holes or embrasures in the sides of ships of war, for pointing the guns through, on the different decks or batteries. The ports are formed on the sides by the timbers of the frame*, and on the upper and lower parts by pieces lying after the sheer, called port sills (Fig. 12 and 15); they are distinguished by the upper (m) and lower (n) port sills; the upper is tailed into the timber, and the lower billed.

 

     * The timbers that form the sides of the ports are called port timbers, and in general have an excess of siding over the other timbers. 

 

PORT HOOKS (Page 225): iron hooks for fixing the port hinge upon, and upon which the port-lid revolves. One arm of the hook is driven through the side, at a proper height above the port, and is clenched on the inside.

 

PORT LIDS (Page 225): lids or shutters fixed to the middle and gun decks of ships of the line. They are made of fir, in two thicknesses; the inner thickness is called the lining, and is placed with the range of fibre up and down, and of about 2 inches in thickness, with its inner part bedding or faying close to the back stops. The outer thickness, called the outside stuff, lies fore and aft, so as to cross the lining, and is of a substance sufficient to be well with the outer part of the outside planking, at the thinnest part. The lining is fastened to the outside stuff by nails, about 2 1/2 inches apart. These lids are hung with two hinges, which have in their lower end one shackle in each, outside, for the port ropes, and one in each, inside, for the port fastening. These shackles in general forelock. The hinges are fastened, in addition to the shackles, which form part of the fastening, with one saucer-headed bolt, as close up to the upper part as to be just below the upper stop, which is driven on the inside and forelocked on the out; and one or two saucer-headed bolts in each breadth of outside stuff is driven from the outside, and clenched upon the lining. In the port lid is cut a scuttle, to be opened for air when (he lid is shut in; and one illuminator is fixed in the lid, to give light, when the badness of the weather compels the scuttle to be shut in. The port lids are made to fit very close to the back stops, but to come out and shut in easy. After the ports are eased in, which is not done, for the last time, till all the guns and stores are on board, the back stops are lined over with fearnaught or kersey; and likewise the back stops of the scuttle.

 

PORT STOPS (Page 226):  are the ends and edges of the planks left round the ports, from 1 1/2 to 2 ¼ inches from the sides of the timbers and upper and lower parts of the sills, to receive the port lids and the half-ports.

Edited by trippwj

Wayne

Neither should a ship rely on one small anchor, nor should life rest on a single hope.
Epictetus

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wayne: part of my issue is that Steel does not, in his glossary, define either 'stop' or 'lining' (other than 'lining out' - a completely different subject!). Thanks for the Fincham extract, as I do not have that volume.

 

So, if I understand rightly, Fincham calls the inner layer of the port lid the lining, the pieces around the port opening the back stop or port stop. Is this definitive?

Be sure to sign up for an epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series  http://trafalgar.tv

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wayne: part of my issue is that Steel does not, in his glossary, define either 'stop' or 'lining' (other than 'lining out' - a completely different subject!). Thanks for the Fincham extract, as I do not have that volume.

 

So, if I understand rightly, Fincham calls the inner layer of the port lid the lining, the pieces around the port opening the back stop or port stop. Is this definitive?

 

That does appear to be the definitive definition, so to speak. 

 

It sounds, to my admittedly frail mind, that one can envision the stops as analogous to pieces of 2 x 4 laid along the sides and bottom of a window to which (in older homes, at least) the storm windows were fitted - it kept them from projecting too far inside, ensuring the more or less flush fit with the exterior walls. In the case of the port lids, it also reduced the risk of the port lid being forced too far into the port by exterior action (such as waves and water pressure).

 

I am a very poor sketch artist, but will try and come up with something to show the concept.

Wayne

Neither should a ship rely on one small anchor, nor should life rest on a single hope.
Epictetus

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK, then - here is a VERY poor attempt to show how the port stop fits relative to the port framing.

 

This first view is from the outside looking in.

 

post-18-0-14923300-1453125325_thumb.jpg

 

 

Here we are looking from the side at the port in cross section.  Note the stop is set back some distance from the face of the port, allowing the lining to fit within the opening.

 

post-18-0-72460400-1453125324_thumb.jpg

 

 

CAVEAT - these are not in scale of any sort.

 

 

Wayne

Neither should a ship rely on one small anchor, nor should life rest on a single hope.
Epictetus

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've attached another  sketch.  Note that there was usually no stop on the underside of the lintel, but only attached to the frames on the sides of the port and on the sill.   This was a quick sketch so if I made any mistakes, please feel free to jump in.

 

Allan

post-42-0-40874400-1453131621_thumb.jpg

PLEASE take 30 SECONDS and sign up for the epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series.   Click on http://trafalgar.tv   There is no cost other than the 30 seconds of your time.  THANK YOU

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First of all I want to thank trippwj for this wonderful post and the text of Fincham !  This "outline" I didn`t had till now.

I also want to thank druxey for his posts.

 

I believe, that the practice discribed by Finchham belongs more to the beginning of the 19th century.  To set back the outside planking a little bit to form a stop for the port lid by the edges of the sills.

Looking at plans (sheer, framing, planking expansion) of ships of especially the 18th century (Steel, Stalkartt), one can see, that the planking ends exactly at the inner edges of the frames and sills building the ports.  So the practice discribed by Fincham, must have come in use later. I will check some NMM plans to be sure !

 

What allenyed showes us above, is nearly what I meant.  The only thing missing is the stop (or lining) of the upper sill or lintel.  Looking at various models, these lining of the inner surface of the ports, is clearly visible, an all four sides !

By checking some pics of models today, there arose another theory.  It looks like most of the port linings or stops have the lower one to be thicker than the other ones.  That would explain what Steel meant with a port stop of 2 1/4 inches thicker than the lining.

The other boards of only a thickness of 1 1/4 inches are the "linings" of the port.

I don`t think that they were arranged like trippwj showed it.  Otherwise they could be visible on well-built models, I think.  But the basic idea is clear.

 

As another fact, that gun barrels were situated exactly in the middle of the port, and when moved, then more to the sides and upwards then downwards, it will have caused no problem to have the lowest "stop" a little bit higher in order to STOP the port lid proper.  The angle downwards was more limited.

 

But again, this is theory at the moment and I will check many more pics and other sources to get sure.  Think we`ll find a solution every one of us will accept !

All the best,

Tom

 

(sapere aude)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not so sure about how important the time frame is - Steel (1763-1803) and Fincham (1784-1859) were both writing about the same era, and the same paradigm related to construction.  Allan has provided a much better sketch of the structure - not really surprising it is not shown on many contemporary models - at 1:48, the 2" height would be nearly impossible to accurately portray (translates to something like 0.04" of height within the gunport.)

 

I also erred in my sketch - based on Fincham there is no stop on the underside of the lintel (serves no useful purpose there). 

Wayne

Neither should a ship rely on one small anchor, nor should life rest on a single hope.
Epictetus

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Arch

I did a quick search of contemporary models and I cannot find any gun ports with stops on the lintels.   The only definitive one I have found so far is in the forum here for contemporary model photos from museums that being the George, DCSO1822 and it shows no top stop.   This is only one model, so maybe  it is wrong or maybe some had them and some did not.  Could you post a photo or two of the contemporary models that you have seen that have these, I am really curious about this.   Seems there is always something to ponder.  

 

Thanks very much

 

Allan

PLEASE take 30 SECONDS and sign up for the epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series.   Click on http://trafalgar.tv   There is no cost other than the 30 seconds of your time.  THANK YOU

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for your posts !  Interesting thing isn`t it ?

 

allenyed - I will post some pics of these upper linings seen on contemporary models in the next days.

 

trippwj - Steels era is from about 1780 to 1805,  Finchham a little bit later, more to the beginning of the 19th century.

Maybe there were some changes as other things in shipbuilding.

 

I found one scale drawing on my PC but do not know where it is from. Maybe you know ?

 

There the "stops" are shown - take a look ! (click to supersize)

 

post-1509-0-31525800-1453137649_thumb.jpg

 

Thanks for your help !

 

Greets,   Tom

All the best,

Tom

 

(sapere aude)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Now I found the picture on the www.

 

It is posted at flickr   -   https://www.flickr.com/photos/27417638@N07/6118072130

 

From Portia Takakijan's "Anatomy of the Ship: The 32-Gun Frigate Essex," this drawing depicts the seventh gun from forward on the port side.

All the best,

Tom

 

(sapere aude)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you for sharing.  I am not one to argue with Portia's drawings, but  have not yet seen this arrangement on a contemporary drawing or model.  It is my understanding that the AOS series of books is not without fault (as is the case with all of us mortals)

Thanks again

Allan

PLEASE take 30 SECONDS and sign up for the epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series.   Click on http://trafalgar.tv   There is no cost other than the 30 seconds of your time.  THANK YOU

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are the "stops" then the same thing that many of us have been calling "sills"?  Between the frames and not completely covered by the planking?  I was also under the impression that with full lids, the planking would stop short of the sides (linings or frames).  The lid when closed would end up flush (or nearly flush) with the planking.

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD           Triton Cross-Section   

 NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit                                                                            HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are the "stops" then the same thing that many of us have been calling "sills"? Between the frames and not completely covered by the planking? I was also under the impression that with full lids, the planking would stop short of the sides (linings or frames). The lid when closed would end up flush (or nearly flush) with the planking.

The sill is actually the lower framing piece (horizontal). The planking should be nearly to the edge on all sides. The port lid would fit within the opening, with the outer surface flush with the planking. The stops are there because the port is in the opening, not over it.

 

Goodwin has a couple of drawings in his English Man of War (around page 288). Will edit to include full citation when I can.

 

Here's another analogy to consider: look at the door frame on older doors - they all have a "jamb" to stop the inward travel.

Wayne

Neither should a ship rely on one small anchor, nor should life rest on a single hope.
Epictetus

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wayne and Tadeuzsz,  I owe you both an adult beverage for that.  Now I got it..  post-76-0-61279600-1453256046.gif

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD           Triton Cross-Section   

 NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit                                                                            HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It seems to me, that there are some four or five different methods of showing gunports and their lids, linings and stops !  Also era is a cause how gunports are arranged.  This is the impression to me.  More investigations are required and I hope to find the time to make some simple drawings.

 

All the best !

 

Tom

All the best,

Tom

 

(sapere aude)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...

I should explain, that the area marked completele red in the drawing on the right, together with the part signed No.1, is the whole "port lid" itself.  I would liked to show, that the part of the lid, that is wider than part No.1, is said to be the "stop" of the port-lid (not the stop of the port !) I never meant the whole part of the lid but the remaining "frame" of overlap which Lavery has shown as 2/2 in the drawing on the left.

 

Greets,   Tom

All the best,

Tom

 

(sapere aude)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Carpenters of the days of Wooden Ships were well capable of making Gun Port Lids that fit, didn't need anything more that the taper or stair step type of seal to stop the Gun Port Lid from coming inboard more than the carpenters intended. Gun Port Stops, not gun port lid stops is the term used?  I have been looking on all models and replicas for anything that would protect the area around the Ports from damage from rolling the gun back into battery, the carriage or the wheels  need to be prevented from contacting the inside planking, matters not whether the gun is on a gun deck or quarterdeck, running the guns into battery at an angle or even square will do damage to the ship unless there is a sacrificial fender in place, I suspect that Gun Port Stops are those fenders and nothing to do with lids. Some gun carriages used a convex shape extending ahead of the carriage and wheels so the gun could be trained forward and aft using the convex part of the carriage to pivot around, that would keep the wheels from contacting the sides, but would still need something to protect the ship from damage from the convex end of the carriage. A lot of effort went into preventing damage to their ships and it rigging  that could be prevented by the use of frapping, bumpers, leather wear points,  etc., be out of character to allow the gun carriages and their wheels to cause preventable damage to the ship, Gun Port Stops perhaps.

jud :pirate41:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jud -

 

Gun Port stops function much the same as the soffit (stops) on modern doors.  If modern carpenters, with thousands of years of institutional knowledge behind them, not to mention untold bazillions of doors installed, have found the stop an effective way of ensuring that a simple household door doesn't move further into the opening than intended, why should we think a ships carpenter, working in a non-planar building surface, would be so presumptuous to think that the port lid (all 110 or so for the largest ships) would fit right, every time, at sea or anchor?  That series of holes in the side was the Achilles heel, so to speak, of nearly every war ship afloat.  In a rough sea, if a port broke open (the port lid pushed through the port), the volume of water admitted could, in a short time, create major stability issues as the vessel settles lower due to water accumulation in excess of the pump ability to remove.

 

In terms of protecting the interior planking from the gun, that was not a major concern.  The waterway was designed as the stop for the carriage wheels.  The pressure of the gun carriage against the side was planned for - that was how a gun was intended to be used and stored.  The bigger design challenge was to come up with a design for the eye bolts used to anchor the various gun tackle to withstand the recoil after firing.  The gun, accelerated to a velocity due to recoil, wants to stay moving in that direction at that velocity.  Inertia (the resistance of any physical object to any change in its state of motion) and momentum (product of mass and velocity) mean that it takes a large or prolonged force to bring it to a stop afterwards.  That force is applied by the various tackle, all anchored to very small sections of the hull by the eye bolts. 

Wayne

Neither should a ship rely on one small anchor, nor should life rest on a single hope.
Epictetus

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This has been a very informative thread. Thank you to everyone who has contributed. I was trying to figure out the same thing plus a few other details as I am starting to plan the port lids for my Couronne. I believe I have all the answers I need now to proceed!

"A Smooth Sea NEVER made a Skilled Sailor"
- John George Hermanson 

-E.J.

 

Current Builds - Royal Louis - Mamoli

                    Royal Caroline - Panart

Completed - Wood - Le Soleil Royal - Sergal - Build Log & Gallery

                                           La Couronne - Corel - Build Log & Gallery

                                           Rattlesnake - Model Shipways, HMS Bounty - Constructo

                           Plastic - USS Constitution - Revel (twice), Cutty Sark.

Unfinished - Plastic - HMS Victory - Heller, Sea Witch.

Member : Nautical Research Guild

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 9 months later...

Hello,

 

In the photograph showing a cannon moored along the wall (in fact my section of the Fleuron), we can observe the device that keeps the port-lid tightly closed.
We can see the handspike (heaver ?) of the gun placed across the port, it serves as a restraint with two seizing passed through the rings which are inside the port-lid when it's closed.
This is very rarely illustrated.
 
GD
Edited by G. Delacroix
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...