ccoyle

For Beginners -- A Cautionary Tale

95 posts in this topic

Dear prospective ship modeler,

 

Welcome! If you're reading this, it's probably because you are ready and raring to get started on a first ship model. But before you do, allow me to share the following with you.

 

We get a lot of first-time builders on this forum. People who are eager to build a first ship model are attracted to the hobby for a variety of reasons. Perhaps you were captivated by a stunning model of the USS Constitution or the HMS Victory. Maybe you have a beloved relative who was a modeler. Or it could be that you just have a love of the sea, even if you've never sailed on anything larger than a rowboat. All of us came to MSW with similar motivations. Those of us who have been at this for a while not only love the hobby, but also love passing along our experience to new builders. It's a special treat to see a new modeler persevere through the joys and sorrows (and often tedium) of building a ship model and arrive successfully at the end of a build with a finished model to be proud of.

 

Unfortunately, many of those eager new members also turn out to be last-time builders as well. There are lots of reasons why a first-timer might give up. Building a nice ship model requires the learning of many new skills, a not inconsiderable amount of tenacity, and usually a significant time investment. Some new modelers get bored, others get overwhelmed, and some get overtaken by things like career changes, cross-country moves, babies, sudden illnesses -- that life stuff we all have to deal with occasionally. We understand those things happen. We get it.

 

This post, though, is written for a particular kind of first-time modeler: the modeler who takes on more ship then they can handle. Unfortunately, this kind of modeler is all too common. Bewitched by a clipper ship or sailing man-of-war, this kind of newbie believes that they can jump right in and build something similar.

 

Allow me to use an analogy. I'm not a pilot, but I love old warbirds. Suppose I go to an airshow and, having been awed by the spectacle, decide to go out and buy a P-51 and take her up for a few high-g maneuvers. All with no flying experience, mind you. I don't have to tell you how that first flight is likely to end up.

 

Sadly, many of the newcomers to MSW have a similar experience with model ships. They come brimming with pluck and determination, convinced that they can build a Constitution or Victory. In most instances, these bright-eyed neophytes wind up like the over-zealous new P-51 owner -- dead. Well, unlike the pilot, the would-be modelers are probably still alive, but their dreams of nice model ships have certainly gone to a better place.

 

Now, before I go any further, allow me to make a few things perfectly clear. Am I saying that a new modeler should never attempt a complicated model or that newcomers never finish such models? No, I'm not saying that. There are a few modelers who have attempted such projects and completed them, so it is certainly possible. But those modelers are very few in number. And we don't have any rules about what kind of model you can or can't build around here. If you absolutely, positively have to have a crack at a three-decker or frigate, then have at it. We'll be glad to help you along the way. But just be aware ahead of time how much of a challenge you are getting yourself into.

 

Let me throw some numbers at you to illustrate my point. One of my jobs here at MSW is to comb through old build logs and edit the titles of completed builds to show that the model has been finished (it makes searching for finished models easier). Obviously, as I sift through the builds I find many unfinished ones. On just one page that I was recently checking, I found twelve unfinished build logs started by first-time builders. In ten of those build logs, the new builder never made it past completing the hull of his ship. In the other two, the builder never started the model at all. Nine of those twelve modelers are no longer active on this site. I did not include among those twelve modelers any who gave a life-got-in-the-way reason for suspending their build. They're simply twelve modelers who eagerly started their project and then, usually quite early on, just gave up and quietly disappeared without giving any reasons why.

 

Those twelve builds all had one thing in common: each modeler had chosen a model that posed significant challenges for a first-time builder. Some of those models would have been a challenge even for a skilled builder. Simply put, they doomed their attempt at modeling by choosing a model that was over their head.

 

All of us ship modelers know how real the temptation is to skip an entry-level model and go straight for lots of guns and lots of sails. But here's the whole point I want to make: seriously think twice about caving into that temptation. The evidence speaks for itself - literally hundreds of abandoned build logs begun by modelers who bit off more than they could chew. Many of them not only abandoned their build, they also gave up on the hobby entirely.

 

It didn't have to be that way. Making a good start by honestly appraising your skill level and deciding to go with a simple first model is one of the surest ways to success in this hobby. Most true beginner models -- those actually designed for beginners and not merely labeled as such -- don't require a lot of money, time, or expensive tools. In a few weeks you'll know if this hobby is for you without having gotten yourself worked up over a model you couldn't realistically complete. And you know, most of us here enjoy watching the progress on a relatively 'easy' model, like a small sailboat, just as much as we enjoy watching the progress on an HMS Victory -- especially when we see those models being finished and proudly displayed.

 

And you know what? Success breeds further success. 

 

For more information on choosing a first model, check out the NRG modeling resources page.

 

Choose wisely, enjoy the journey, and I look forward to seeing you complete your first build log.

 

Respectfully,

Chris

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This has always been a tough decision whit model building in general. My first ship build was the Constitution. It was Revell's plastic 1:96 scale kit. Granted I had been modeling for about 15 years at that point so I was not new to model building, nor complicated builds. I do admit though that there were times when I thought I had bit off more than I could chew with that kit. Even with the kits two piece hull and very good instructions, it is still a very daunting kit to someone who had never built a ship before and maybe more than I should have undertaken. That being said, it came out beautiful two years later and sits proudly in my dad's house as it was him I built it for.

 

Now that being said, I was not interested in building other ships at the time. That one was undertaken as a gift for my dad as he was not able to finish his model of the Constitution and it had become too badly damaged to salvage. Had I started building a simpler ship but without the motivation to build it other than "this looks fun" I may not have wanted to push through to completion when I hit those hard places. I learned a lot on that first build and every time I managed to struggle my way through to completion of a part I would (and still do) sit back and admire it for a long time. This is where my love of ship building was born. Seeing that majestic ship come together and knowing that I made that happen created a love of this hobby and filled that void that other models were not able to do.

 

I know my story is in the minority of first time ship builders. I also know that models are put on hold for many reasons other than burnout. My dad's had to stop because he had me, was going to college, working 2 jobs and then my mom died. He has built models since but never had the time to complete his Constitution before the ship got ruined. A friend of mine from the Navy has a great model railroad layout that never got completed since he was constantly getting deployed and now is getting ready to retire and move so he has to disassemble it. Just recently my own build has stopped as I found out last week my dog of 11 years has cancer, no way to fix it and we had to put him down yesterday. My wife and I are still devastated over this loss.

 

I think it is wise of us as a community of experienced builders to encourage first timers to choose easier kits as it is a shame to see so many unfinished builds out there. However, I do not think we should discourage them if they choose to take on a harder one to start. Instead, be sure to constantly follow their builds and try to offer help and suggestions on how to get through those tough areas when they are reached. We do not always know what outside circumstances may cause a build to stop.

dodie, Julie Mo, Dan Vad and 6 others like this

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Jud,

 

You and Chris raise valid points.   There are those who start a build log, realize they're in way over their heads and give up.  There are others, who start a log, realize they're in way over their heads and the put that log on hold and get a simpler kit.    One of the topics over the years has been about the number of models, unfinished, sitting in an attic or basement because the builder didn't know how to do what was needed.   

 

There's two articles in the article database that explain "how to select a kit" and "what to expect in a kit".  They've been offered many time to new members.   Both articles have great advice.

 

Going from plastic to wood is a big step.  Similar to going from replacing some items on your car to building one from the ground up.   Same principles, just different skill set needed.

 

In my case, my first ship was Wasa (from Billings).  I opened the kit, read the directions such that they are, and put it away.  I went to the hobby shop and bought a simple battle station and AL's Scottish Maid.    I learned. It's humbling to realize you don't know how to do things.   When those two models wiere done, I did the Wasa.  

 

We here at MSW have also seen the same thing in scratchbuilding.  Look at the logs of models never finished.   Even the starters like the Triton cross-section.   

 

It's tough call on things in this hobby.   MSW is based on the premise that everyone wants everyone else to succeed also.  Mutual support.   Sometimes, the advice may seem harsh, but it's voices of experience that give it. And they give it in context of "how to learn".  Some new builders do carry on and turn out a nice model but they are usually reading other logs and listening to those who have built the model.  And most would tell you, they should have started with something easier.   

 

My apologies for being long winded.

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I think it is common among many (myself included), to get all enthusiastic about a new hobby, then; when the new-car-smell is gone, to loose interest. It is nothing to do with the hobby itself, just human nature.  Witness that boat sitting among the weeds in the back yard, or that guitar gathering dust in the corner (I am guilty of both, as well as others I can't recall at the moment).

 

Sometimes, you just have to try a bunch of different hobbies that strike your fancy, hoping you find one that sticks. One suggestion I would make- is to not make a build log on your first project, just read what others are doing, and ask questions.

 

Of course, I could be mistaken. :)

Skip

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I think that the biggest problem is not just the complexity of the built but the time needed to invest. In my first two boats, on some days I could spent 7 hours building. Now, with work and familly commitments increasing I struggle to find any time at all and I am sure my current project will take years to complete. But it is a good idea to have a built log, I find it very motivating.  

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Jud, I think you misunderstand my motivation for starting this thread. I'm not trying to 'judge' anyone, and I'm not saying a beginner can't complete a complex model (we've all seen it done). But in the pages of MSW 2.0, its predecessor MSW 1.0, the old Dry Dock Models forum, and the anecdotal evidence provided by manufacturers, we have overwhelming evidence that newbies regularly attempt more model than they are capable of handling. We don't send first-time skiers to the black diamond runs, and we don't let first-year medical students do heart transplants -- the same principle applies to ship models: try something commensurate with one's skills. I'm really not trying to turn people away -- I'm trying to help them make a choice of first model that will increase their chance of staying in the hobby. Success breeds more success. And haven't we all read about the much-bemoaned demise of the hobby? Hundreds (quite literally) of people quitting their attempts at building certainly doesn't alleviate that problem.

Mike Y, Cristiano, Elia and 14 others like this

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I have built two or three model boats, probably with lots of mistakes, and I certainly consider myself a beginner.

I have completed these models only by reading members builds on this site and trying to learn from them.

However I firmly believe that if a model is classified as suitable for a beginner then the instructions and plans should reflect this. In my limited experience this is definitely not the case. Instructions are very sparse and the plans very complicated.

If manufacturers say a model is for beginners then instructions and plans should be written with the beginner in mind. If that was the case then maybe more models would be completed and more people would carry on with this hobby.

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Certainly there are many factors (time, ability, etc) that contribute to whether one will 'stick with' this hobby, and many of those can't be quantified until you get going.  But I do agree that the choice of kit can sometimes be a 'make or break' decision.

 

I really, really want to build the Syren.  But I think it is just a little beyond my reach at the moment, so I'm picking something else for my next build.

 

I'm still new to this - I picked up ship building about 9 months ago.  For my first build, I chose the Phantom - solid hull.  This meant no hull or deck planking, no square rigging, and no gunports or guns to build.  I chose it so that I could focus on basic skills - reading plans, cutting/sanding/shaping, and rigging.  I made a lot of mistakes.  For my second build, I'm building the Bluenose.  This adds basic POB stuff (keel, bulkheads, etc), hull and deck planking, more detail.  But I chose this particular ship because the hull is painted - my first attempt at hull planking is likely to turn out a little 'less than great', so I can learn hull planking but still use wood filler and paint to end up with a good build.

 

I was tempted to jump right into the Syren next (even had it in my shopping cart on the Model Expo site at one point), but I decided to do another build before I take that plunge, to get some experience with square rigging and gunports.

 

If you're getting into the hobby for the long haul, it doesn't hurt to spend some time working your way up.  You learn valuable skills that will pay off when you finally get to that 'big build'.  You also get a great sense of accomplishment from having successfully completed something (and that is much easier to reach with a 'beginner build').

 

All that being said, you have to be interested in the ship you are building.  It has to catch your eye.  If honestly nothing catches your eye except the Constitution, you might as well try.  Better to try something and have it fizzle out than to not try at all.  But if a first time builder is willing to start small, I do think it will pay off in the end.

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Dave,

 

We have had some relatively new builders do the Syren.  Chuck did an excellent practicum/instruction booklet which I think is still available on the Model Expo site for download.   It's not a beginner kit but the instructions do go a long way in helping the builder visualize the build as you go.

 

I'm very much on the fence about recommending this one, only because it has a lot of repetitive tasks... guns, masts, rigging, etc.  

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I have a theory that may apply to Chris's post. When I started building my first log, I came to conclusion that my boat will never look as good as most of the builds on this site no matter what I did at the time. This led me to find myself at times thinking, "If I do this, I'll never be able to post the pics on MSW". Now that I have four kits under my belt I feel a lot better about posting to build logs. Unfortunately I do not have the time these days like I did 4 years ago to work on my builds. My Scotland Kit is over two years old now, still trying to get one whole day to sit down and get going on it.

 

These people may have finished their boats but chose not to continue the log because they felt it wasn't good enough to share. Some of the people on this forum are 30 plus year veterans at this hobby and they make such beautiful ships that it may drive away novices from posting.

 

Who knows where these build logs have gone, just saying my theory could be valid along with people just losing interest.

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I found the email receipt for my Enterprise......2009!! :o There have been a lot of reasons why its taken so long; health, end of a relationship, a death, start of another relationship, work. The big one for me is I cant leave well enough alone and have to keep fiddling with things. Then there is that short attention span.

 

As far as why others fail to finish? I suspect there are as many reasons why builds and build logs are abandoned as there are builders; time, money (tools) skills, poor instructions, overestimation of how long it will take etc etc. Keeping up a build log takes time and effort. By the time I have taken and edited pictures, written a post, edited and re-edited (Gods of Spell Check I thank you) it could be an hour or more. thats an hour that could be spent building. I imagine some decide its more effort than it is worth to them.

 

When it comes to helping others pick a first build all we can do is give anecdotal advice and hope they listen. When they (ME?) dont then give as much advice and encouragement as possible. I know I most likely would not continued with out all the advice and encouragement I recieve(d)

 

Sam

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And building a simple boat first and progressively taking on more complex projects allows one to gradually buy the truckloads of necessary and "nice to have" stuff without the admiral realising the cost. Also, one can gradually expand and occupy space in the house that otherwise would be point blank denied.

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There have been quite a few who have given up on even those kits labelled as simple. I'm not sure that there is an even simpler kit for them. It may be more that the hobby is just not for them.

 

Tony

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A few points.

Check the SIZE of the finished build.  Many kits when completed area  lot bigger than you think and even before completion need a fair amount of space.

 

You can look too closely at what you are doing - my most admired build was cobbled together at speed ( well 4 months) I wouldnt put pics of it on here and I have done much  better work. But its the one that I show off !!

 

Never assume the aim is to finish !  The "journey" is all and the hours getting a teeny piece of wood just right is so relaxing in itself.

 

On this site here will always be someone who does it better than you but also there is also someone who may be learning from you .

 

Personally I do regret the shortage of simple solid hulled kits of a reasonable standard for youngsters to " build along with grand dad"  and for grandad to start off with !!

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In 1987 I brought Artesania Latina's Endeavour. It was well beyond my ability and knowledge. No internet to help back then of course. It ended up in the parts bin one third poorly built. 25 yrs later I started Caldercraft's Mars. Nice kit. I'm rigging it at the moment. With this forum's resources I've had no  problems I could not solve or fix. I'll finish it.

 

My ambition is to build Chris Watton's Victory (if it is ever released), as a retirement project. But I know I'll have to get a few builds under my belt before I buy a kit like that.

 

I support the moderator's advice.  If I had started with a smaller less complicated build in 1987 I may have had a house full of finished model ships by now. 

 

Anyway that's my view. I'm pleased to have returned to the hobby.. I'll post a picture when the Mars is finished.  I think I'm just too slow at present with working full time to do a build log justice.   

 

Malcolm 

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My first-time attempt was a model of Artesania's  Hannah and I got into a real mess when it came to the planking.The model was,and still is abandoned.Undaunted,my next attempt was Scottish Maid,which was much more successful,though it still needs one or two finishing touches to the rigging.I found the hull much easier to plank (both first and second planking) with its 'clipper' lines.

Currently I am building Mamoli's Yacht Mary,which proved rather tricky to plank,but I have now completed the hull,and have made a start on the mast,spars and rigging.

The advice given above is very good-pick a simple model for starters,and one that is fairly easy to plank-not too many tight curves or excessive sheer.

And finally - good luck!!

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These people may have finished their boats but chose not to continue the log because they felt it wasn't good enough to share. Some of the people on this forum are 30 plus year veterans at this hobby and they make such beautiful ships that it may drive away novices from posting.

 

Heck, I have been building models (with breaks) for about 60 years, I still can't build anything to compare with the beautiful models seen in here. (I maintain those plastic WWII kits built as a kid, are legitimate models, and not sticky lumps of glue).

 

Skip

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I have to agree with Skip - I too have been building models for over 60 (with starts and stops) both plastic and wood - some Military Armor and some wooden ships.  And I too am not as good as many of the modelers I see here but so what. I'm learning !

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I think Tony is correct. You have to account that a portion of people who get into ship modeling (even if they have longed to build one for years, decades, blah) give it a go and just decide it's not for them. There's a certain masochism ... -er discipline ;) that comes from doing detailed work which includes model ships that not everyone is cut out for. Seeing the list posted, yes a few were Connie's, one Bounty yeah but some were beginners kits, two Sultana's and one Armed Virginia Sloop which should be good starting points. So I think maybe including those on your list Chris may be part of the confusion here since those models were definitely the correct choice just the builders lost interest which is going to happen no matter how much or little the builders in question listen to the wisdom of experience. :)

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There is the same discussion with golf, sailing, skiing, and a variety of other hobbies. Some people just want to try something and then move on. More power to them. It's a big world out there!

 

Cheers, 

 

Rick 

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 And I too am not as good as many of the modelers I see here but so what.

 

But you have a corgi, and that more than makes up for any modeling deficiencies.

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I am guilty of not finishing some of my kits. In fact there are a few of them listed in my signature as unfinished. One of them I do not feel bad about as it is a joint projects with a friend while I was still in the Navy and is now awaiting his retirement. The others either had issues with the kit, the instructions or I just lost interest in finishing them. The fact that they are plastic kits also has something to do with it as I have grown to love wooden ships more. I still may sit down and finish them one day. 

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At the risk of stirring the pot further, I think some members are missing the point I intended to make. The original post wasn't aimed at modelers who have lost interest in a particular build but are still active in the hobby. Many of us have such models in limbo somewhere. Heck, I have three of them myself. The intended audience is brand-new potential builders, many who are entering the hobby with palpable enthusiasm, as evidenced by the following quotes culled from several dead build logs:

 

I've wanted to build a wooden ship model since I was 6 years old and staring at my neighbor's model of the Golden Hind.  Last year I finally took the plunge and started this build.  The Constitution has always been the ship I wanted to build.  I may only have time to do one wooden ship model in my lifetime, so I figured I should just jump in and start this one, rather than building up to it. 

 

I reckon it is time to start my first build thread.  As usual, I jumped into this new aspect of my modeling experience with both feet, making several moderately serious bids on Ebay, figuring that once the snipers came out, I might be successful on at least a few of them.  Silly me...turns out I could do no wrong, and hit on every one of them.  To make matters worse, modelexpo-online had some offers I couldn't refuse.  Making a long story short, I wound up with an addition of a dozen new kits in the stash, ranging from an old Scientific Cutty Sark kit to a Mamoli HMS Victory, so have an embarrassment of kits to chose from for the first build. 

 

First, I'd like to say I'm impressed by the community and excited about becoming a contributor to it. This seems like a great collection of folks who are passionate about the hobby and quick to help one another. A little background on me: I'm brand new to this whole thing with minimal woodworking experience. Put together plastic models in my younger years and finally pulled the trigger after mulling over a model ship for the last year.

 

My first kit arrived a couple weeks ago as classes let out, so I've got plenty of time to spare on what will hopefully be the first in a nice fleet. I had a hard time deciding what hobby I wanted to pick up, but after seeing the community of model shipwrights, especially on this forum, this just felt right.

 

I have been thinking around a Tall Ship Model for some time now and i think i am now ripe for it

 

 

These folks chose the hobby after much consideration, were eager to get started, and hoped to continue beyond their first build. But they didn't. As I stated previously, these builders never got past the hull. Most of them barely got started, and most are now inactive. Is it possible they finished, but maybe didn't post progress for whatever reason? Sure - but you guys know as well as I do that that is unlikely.

 

The title of this thread says cautionary tale. That's really the purpose of the thread -- to get new modelers to stop, think about what ship they may be considering building, examine the abundant evidence of newbies attempting too much in a first-time project, and get them to seriously think about setting their sights a little lower. Perhaps even lower than a Sultana or AVS -- those are still pretty complex projects, even if they are marketed as beginner models. How many of those modelers might still be in the hobby if they had exercised some caution, backed away from the big three-masters, and started with a dinghy, longboat, or small sailboat? Am I saying that a newcomer can't try to tackle the ship of their dreams? Of course not. But they should know going in that if they do in fact finish it, they'll be a member of a very small club.

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I apologize Chris as I am probably one of those members who misunderstood what you were trying to do with the thread.

 

I think another big issue that causes the new builder to get in over there heads is how they are introduced to the hobby or ships in general. They see the Constitution, Victory, Cutty Sark etc. and want to build them because those are the ones in abundance and available to see in person. The inspiration is set to that level of wow! and it is hard from that point to want to build a much simpler ship. Many of the simpler starter kits are of less famous ships and as such they get fewer people who even know about them much less want to build. Then as I have seen others say, "canons are cool!" As a kid inspiration is going to come from that 100 gun man of war and not a small 0-4 gun vessel.

 

I think that to help encourage first time builders to choose a simpler ship to start from is that we need to find ways to promote those smaller, simpler vessels. Just in the 6 month I have been apart of this community my knowledge and exposure to other ships as expanded immensely. I'm not completely sure the best ways of doing this but perhaps one idea would be to somehow find ways of featuring beginner kits and make them appealing. Possibly by listing their history or significance to a particular country by talking them up much like we see on the more popular ships. Even perhaps create a section on here that is specifically for beginner ships so that new comers to the hobby can see other first time builder's work so that they feel more comfortable sharing their work and not feel like their skills are sub par when all they see are some of the great works that are on here.

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Jud,

 

    I strongly disagree.  I take Chris' original post for what it is, a warning.  I provide the same warning anytime I speak to a perspective modeler, whether it be at a club meeting or at our Ship Modeling booth at the county fair.  Most people don't realize how difficult building a wooden ship is and how many sub-skills need to be developed before you can do a bang up job on a complicated model. 

 

    As seasoned modelers, we owe it to them to give them reasonable advice. 

CharlieZardoz, Elia, cdogg and 7 others like this

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But you have a corgi, and that more than makes up for any modeling deficiencies.

 

Not sure I understand that response Chris.  Are you a Corgi lover also ? Or ???

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Jud,

 

It seems to me that you're taking this thread a little personally/defensively.  I took it as sage advice for success to new modelers to avoid being frustrated as they learn.  Just like when I got into RC planes, i wanted start out with a balsa wood gas plane but the whole club was like, start with a foam electric.  Not because they wanted to kill my enthusiasm, quite the opposite.  They knew that plane was going to be easy to fly and fix if wrecked.  But if you want to take it as an insult, then you have the option to bail from the conversation and/or the site.  No need for drama.

 

Joshua

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Jud,

 

I'm with Chuck...   back in drag racing days, i used to get a lot of "I'm going to build a car.. this will be cool".   They soon depleted their budget, and had no idea what to do next.   There's a learning process in anything.  Some things have a steeper learning curve than others.   Fair warning should be given.

 

Let's face it, wood is a totally different critter than plastic or metal models.  To open a kit and suddenly see nothing but a pile of wood and few castings with instructions that say "Now plank the hull".. "Got that done, add the masts and rigging, next".  is overwhelming. 

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As is my wont to do, I agree with everyone.  This subject is too complicated and full of unknown factors (life's little interventions) to think that anyone has the right way of doing it.  Almost 3 years ago i was gifted the A.L. Bounty kit by a gentleman who had bought it for his son (thinking it would help get him off the juice) who had never even opened it.  I, on the other hand, had a life long desire to build models but had never gotten around to it.  So I began what is now closing in on a 3 year project and if I decide to finish it completely, it'll be another year minimum.  I discovered this site and started a log.  Over time the log became harder to maintain than the model did to build.  My photography is not great and I'm a dunce when it comes to computers in general.  So my log fell off the table (am I one whose been counted as "given up"?).  But I have persevered through some trying personal times including a recent six month chemo therapy course.  I've learned a heck of alot about model building (its cost being one of the lessons learned), ship's construction, history and maybe most importantly, alot about myself.  I recently remarked to a friend that I've always been a dilettante and never got passionate about anything to stick with it long enough to really master it.  This is still true at age 70, and pertains to ship modeling in particular at this point in time.  But it doesn't mean i don't enjoy various aspects of the hobby and find reward and relaxation in it.  The trick going forward for me will be to identify those aspects of it that I don't enjoy (reading plans is one of them for sure) and take on projects that minimize them.  Or, forget ship modeling, having been there and done it, and start making boxes.

EJ_L, mtaylor, Elijah and 4 others like this

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