vossiewulf

Ammunition loadouts and other questions

36 posts in this topic

I've been trying to get a grasp on typical naval ship ammo loadouts for the period starting with the Austrian War of Succession and ending in 1815.

 

The one solid reference I found is of course for the Royal Navy (recent studies suggest that roughly 98.2% of all information on Age of Sail warships is about the RN), saying typical loadout in 1790 was 60 rounds per gun (RPG) round shot, 10 bar shot, and 6 grape/cannister. This more or less agrees with the endless anecdotal references to the RN much preferring to aim low with round shot, and shooting to disable rigging was a rare case usually involving an enemy attempting to disengage.

 

That said, it still seems to be a pretty inflexible loadout, I would have guessed somewhat more for bar and cannister. Also, did the RN make no use of chain shot? I'm aware bar served the same basic purpose but I've never seen an effectiveness or range comparison.

 

I've found no useful information for the French, Spanish, Dutch, or US other than the typical "French always aimed for the rigging" which always seemed a gross oversimplification on several levels, I was glad to see Sam Willis agreed with me in Fighting at Sea in the Eighteenth Century: The Art of Sailing Warfare. I've seen little clear info on the Spanish, if I had to guess it seems they were somewhere between the English and the French in shooting at hull or rigging. And regardless, I've seen no numbers specifying the breakdown of round/chain/cannister rounds per gun. If anyone has this or at least educated estimates, it would be much appreciated.

 

Second thing is the project I am working on calls for quality, full-color ship top views. I've generated some that I need via purchased and modified 3D models (20+ years of 3DS Max too, I go back to the DOS version before it was MAX), but as you gentlemen and ladies know better than anyone, a sailing ship is a complicated machine with metric farktons of complex bits everywhere. So although I'm fully capable of generating excellent 3d models, I'd like to finish this project before the end of time itself if possible.

 

So I've been adding depth and color to some model plan top views. Again as you folks know, we have wonderful collections of the original ships' plans still accessible, but detailed deck plans are rarely included as that wasn't considered part of the construction of the ship but of fitting out, and as far as I know if fitting out plans were even created, we don't have them.

 

So I'm mostly limited to model top views. I have no hesitation to buy a set of plans if it has what I want, but I'd like to be sure first. First I'll attach an example, showing the starting and ending points - the starting point was cutting that section out of an Aeropiccola Serapis. I then used photoshop to add color, depth, light and shadows until I had what I wanted, that file is also attached.

 

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post-9338-0-17300500-1469497211_thumb.jpg

 

What I need (remember this is 1740-1815):

 

France: 1st rate, 2nd rate (I might be able to use the Montebello plans floating around, but the main deck is split over several sheets and isn't exactly detailed).

 

Spain: 3rd rate, frigates

 

Dutch: pretty much everything. I'd like to include some things from the Fourth Anglo-Dutch war.

 

Danish: I got nada, would like to include Copenhagen but only if I can get art assets that meet the grade and ship data, latter I can mostly get from threedecks.org.

 

As for what I'm working on, it's a game and I'll attach a couple screenshots. For now it remains a personal project but I'm considering commercializing it. Getting close to needing testers if anyone is interested, send me a PM. I'm new to this particular forum but I assume they have a PM system.

 

If I do commercialize, licenses or purchases will be made for any art assets I make use of that I don't already have; making a zillion dollars is not a relevant consideration, but doing things right always is.

 

One more thing, I won't be answering any questions about this project here for now, sorry  :( . If you PM me and I get you set up to test, then you'll learn all about it. But the screenshots should tell you that most of you that have played age of sail games will find it familiar. Well, one thing - it's an engine/framework, and is specifically being designed to handle anything from 1v1 to very large fleet engagements and it's already able to play those through so I'm certain of this  :). Everything is entirely dynamic, driven by scenario files, and those aren't difficult to spin up.

 

Attack on Ferrol, Aug.25 1800, assuming both sides were a bit more aggressive.

 

post-9338-0-31346000-1469497245_thumb.jpg

 

USS Constitution and President vs. Le Courageux (74 3rd) and L'Hermione (36 5th), latter already struck her colors due to severe beating by President. Entirely hypothetical, created it to test both the US and French art assets and also to have something with shooting on turn 1 to test the new ship info screens that I just got done implementing.

 

To give you an idea of what I mean about entirely dynamic, we see one of three versions of French ships, this flag and counter background are for 1795 on. We have counters and naval ensigns that are correct for the 1790-1794 period, and another for pre-1790 using the plain white naval ensign. On the Spanish side, these counters and flags are used from 1785 on, earlier scenarios will use the earlier white ensign for the info screens and counter backgrounds. Scenario designers don't have to do anything but specify the date of the engagement, rest is handled by the game.

 

We have five different water backgrounds (Atlantic, Pacific, Caribbean, Pacific Shallows, English Channel, and Alluvial (brown), each with two hex grid options (one more visible than other), and a player pref can enable/disable hex labels (column/row, helpful for setting up scenarios if nothing else). 

 

On the info screens, player has the option of using solid colors for the active squares as seen above, or naval ensigns (again correct for the year!). There are three options for the damage X, again settable by player.

 

 post-9338-0-46056200-1469497517_thumb.jpg

 

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Please give us a name to call you as it would be a polite thing when you ask for help.  Sorry, this is a pet peeve of mine when the first post from someone gives no introduction at all.

.

That said, your drawings look great but the Aeropiccola plans do not appear to be accurate. The planking and gratings are totally out of scale.  I have never seen the gangway planking running athwartships, but maybe it was done in some cases.  Based on contemporary plans there are missing gratings.  The wheel is in the wrong place.   Serapis 1779 was a Roebuck class 44 gun frigate.  The closest sister ship I could find was Assurance 1780 which was from the same builder as Serapis so I am basing the following information I found on Assurance There were four 24 pound carronades on the quarter deck, and two 24 pound carronades on the forecastle in 1793 when she was re-armed.  According to British Warships in the Age of Sail, Roebuck herself had no guns on the quarter deck so it may be that there were none on the QD of the Serapis.  I did see another source indicating four 6 pounders on the QD of the Roebuck. In any case there is no indication that there were 10 long guns on the QD.  She likely had two on the FC regardless of the arming on the QD.  Looking at other of the Roebuck class it appears that four carronades on the QD and two on the FC was most common.  There are drawings of a number of these ships on the RMG Collections site which can be downloaded (not very clear) or ordered for very clear digital copies.   The following shows the Serapis QD and FC framing but it also shows the hatch openings and other items compared to the drawing you posted.  The upper gun deck is also shown, and appears that your drawing is pretty close to the contemporary drawing.   Given the same length, the beam dimension at the QD level on your drawing is about 10% too short  when compared to the contemporary drawing.

 

Regarding quantities of shot and powder the closest I can find is 1600 round shot for 18 pounders and about 1000 for the 9 pounders  There was also 140 rounds of grape shot and 60 rounds of double headed shot.  I found nothing on the quantities of shot for the carronades. 

 

Good luck with your project

 

Allan

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I once came across a document in the National Archives (by Josiah Fox, me-thinks) stating that on board US Navy 1812-era ships of war, 100 round-shot were allocated to each gun mounted (not rated) on both broadsides, with much smaller amounts of grape, canister, bar etc, as above. So the Wasp (I), "of 18 guns" in 1806 mounted 18 guns and was allowed 1800 round shot, and the Wasp (II) also of "18 guns" in 1814, but actually mounting 22 guns, was allowed 2200 round shot.

 

Ships were allowed one marine for each gun of their rates, so both Wasps carried 18 marines. (Actually, Wasp II sailed from Portsmouth with only five ...)

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Please give us a name to call you as it would be a polite thing when you ask for help.  Sorry, this is a pet peeve of mine when the first post from someone gives no introduction at all.

.

That said, your drawings look great but the Aeropiccola plans do not appear to be accurate. The planking and gratings are totally out of scale.  I have never seen the gangway planking running athwartships, but maybe it was done in some cases.  Based on contemporary plans there are missing gratings.  The wheel is in the wrong place.   Serapis 1779 was a Roebuck class 44 gun frigate.  The closest sister ship I could find was Assurance 1780 which was from the same builder as Serapis so I am basing the following information I found on Assurance There were four 24 pound carronades on the quarter deck, and two 24 pound carronades on the forecastle in 1793 when she was re-armed.  According to British Warships in the Age of Sail, Roebuck herself had no guns on the quarter deck so it may be that there were none on the QD of the Serapis.  I did see another source indicating four 6 pounders on the QD of the Roebuck. In any case there is no indication that there were 10 long guns on the QD.  She likely had two on the FC regardless of the arming on the QD.  Looking at other of the Roebuck class it appears that four carronades on the QD and two on the FC was most common.  There are drawings of a number of these ships on the RMG Collections site which can be downloaded (not very clear) or ordered for very clear digital copies.   The following shows the Serapis QD and FC framing but it also shows the hatch openings and other items compared to the drawing you posted.  The upper gun deck is also shown, and appears that your drawing is pretty close to the contemporary drawing.   Given the same length, the beam dimension at the QD level on your drawing is about 10% too short  when compared to the contemporary drawing.

 

Regarding quantities of shot and powder the closest I can find is 1600 round shot for 18 pounders and about 1000 for the 9 pounders  There was also 140 rounds of grape shot and 60 rounds of double headed shot.  I found nothing on the quantities of shot for the carronades. 

 

Good luck with your project

 

Allan

 

Hey Allan, the name is Jay. Honestly never thought about it as I come from the games world where your handle is your name; I've been Vossie online since before there was an internet (BBS and Genie and CIS and such) and probably more people know me by that name than by my real one. Even my SO (who is actually an ex-wife) calls me Vossie frequently, especially when she thinks I'm misbehaving.

 

Anyway, thanks for the input. I should have been clearer though; the top views I'm using are not going to be specific to any given ship, unless someone has many many ship top view plans I'm not aware of. So if I'm lucky, I'll have one top view to cover all British 38s, another 32s, another 74s, etc. So the exact positions of the deck fittings and gun positions and whether they have small long guns or big carronades on the quarterdeck are beyond what I can worry about. That said, the deck on the Serapis bothered me as it clearly wasn't correct, that is something I can and should fix since it's equally wrong for all British frigates; the problem is what should the deck planking look like? I have a copy of plans for the 1720 or so French frigate Le Renomee that has excellent detailed deck planking that shows varying widths and planks that taper from the beginning of the quarterdeck to the stern, with fill-in planks around the sides. It's outside my time range in terms of the guns and the rigging, but if that planking is a reasonable approximation of frigate deck planking, I could modify it and move it to my generic (based on Serapis) British 38 and use the Renomee as the basis for my French frigates.

 

Here is what I mean:

 

post-9338-0-26889400-1469565034_thumb.jpg

 

WRT the other comments, as noted what I'm looking for is an approximation - so like with the wheel position, if that's just wrong for most British 38s, let's move it. Same thing with deck guns although considering that deck armament for frigates in particular were changing throughout the game period, that's going to be hard to do. If I were to frame the question better, it would be what guns should be on the deck of a British 38 if we were trying to pick one layout from a period (1740 to 1815) where frigates where shifting from long guns to carronades?

 

And thanks for the info on the ammunition loadout, much appreciated and will be put to use.

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I once came across a document in the National Archives (by Josiah Fox, me-thinks) stating that on board US Navy 1812-era ships of war, 100 round-shot were allocated to each gun mounted (not rated) on both broadsides, with much smaller amounts of grape, canister, bar etc, as above. So the Wasp (I), "of 18 guns" in 1806 mounted 18 guns and was allowed 1800 round shot, and the Wasp (II) also of "18 guns" in 1814, but actually mounting 22 guns, was allowed 2200 round shot.

 

Ships were allowed one marine for each gun of their rates, so both Wasps carried 18 marines. (Actually, Wasp II sailed from Portsmouth with only five ...)

 

Thanks frolick, also good info that I'll make use of.

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Jay,

 

For French frigates.. there's a minimum of two since you're looking for generic.   Renomme (8 pdr) works until about 1760 or so.   Belle Poule (12 pdr) would work after that. Le Venus would work after 1782 but it was an 18 pdr.  There are differences between 8 pdr, 12 pdr, and 18 pdr frigates but for gaming purposes you probably don't need to worry unless you're doing damage based on shot weight.  

 

The reason three might be needed is that from a top down perspective (not mention number of guns) the spar decks did change as well as the profile, most notably the quarter galleries.

 

As for 74's... Boudroit's The 74 Gun Ship is pretty generic.   First Rate... L'Orient, Le Commerce de Marseille were pretty much the largest.  

I know there's deeper knowledge than mine on the French ships...  so take my comments as an overview.

 

I hope this helps.

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Jay,

 

For French frigates.. there's a minimum of two since you're looking for generic.   Renomme (8 pdr) works until about 1760 or so.   Belle Poule (12 pdr) would work after that. Le Venus would work after 1782 but it was an 18 pdr.  There are differences between 8 pdr, 12 pdr, and 18 pdr frigates but for gaming purposes you probably don't need to worry unless you're doing damage based on shot weight.  

 

The reason three might be needed is that from a top down perspective (not mention number of guns) the spar decks did change as well as the profile, most notably the quarter galleries.

 

As for 74's... Boudroit's The 74 Gun Ship is pretty generic.   First Rate... L'Orient, Le Commerce de Marseille were pretty much the largest.  

I know there's deeper knowledge than mine on the French ships...  so take my comments as an overview.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Thanks Mark, I'll go look for plans for those.

 

I would prefer being as accurate as possible, the issue isn't will on my part but finding good source material. If I end up with three for France, that's more than fine as long as they're representative of common classes.

 

The combat model is reasonably accurate but generic, it's driven off common class settings for 28, 32, 38, 44 gun etc. ships for each country, but at least so far I haven't added multiple options per gun rating. I'd like to do that, eventually have the common class settings be for specific ship classes, rather than common for a gun rating. So for right now, yes, it wouldn't distinguish between a 36 with 18 pounders on the gun deck vs. a 36 with 12 pounders. 

 

I recently purchased a good copy of Mr. Boudriot's opus as yes, if nothing else I could get the best quality French 74 from that. I have to assume he did nothing in his entire life except study French 74s, I started laughing when I got to the part of him explaining how much acreage of hemp I'd need to support his 74 and how to distinguish between the male and female plants to make sure I got the right fiber.

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Hi Jay,

 

ANCRE sells the monographs for those ships.  Boudriot did a lot of monographs and research other than the 74's.   Gerard Delacroix also has monographs which where the one for the 1st rate is listed.  

 

Websites:

http://ancre.fr/en/

http://gerard.delacroix.pagesperso-orange.fr/sommaire.htm

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Jay,

 

For French frigates.. there's a minimum of two since you're looking for generic.   Renomme (8 pdr) works until about 1760 or so.   Belle Poule (12 pdr) would work after that. Le Venus would work after 1782 but it was an 18 pdr.  There are differences between 8 pdr, 12 pdr, and 18 pdr frigates but for gaming purposes you probably don't need to worry unless you're doing damage based on shot weight.  

 

The reason three might be needed is that from a top down perspective (not mention number of guns) the spar decks did change as well as the profile, most notably the quarter galleries.

 

As for 74's... Boudroit's The 74 Gun Ship is pretty generic.   First Rate... L'Orient, Le Commerce de Marseille were pretty much the largest.  

I know there's deeper knowledge than mine on the French ships...  so take my comments as an overview.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Indeed, I just found Ancre's site that I had missed somehow in my digging, and they actually have the deck plans for L'Hermione, La Belle Poulle, and La Venus downloadable on their site as part of their "PDF documentation". So I think that pretty much solves French frigates for me, thanks very much. If I commercialize it I'll go to Ancre and make sure appropriate arrangements are made for use of their drawings.

 

The other huge gap is French 1st rates, does anyone know of plans besides the Montebello 120? As noted the deck plans are pretty sparse.

 

And the other big gap is Spanish frigates and any SOL smaller than Santisima Trinidad. 

 

By the way, the Spanish do not make things easy for game designers. Britain, we have Victory and Bellona and Britannia. French have nice simple names like Redoubtable and Ardent and Hector. Spanish? Nuestra Señora de la Santísima Trinidad. Try to fit THAT in your UI. I gave up and Spanish names are being truncated ;-)

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Hi Jay,

 

ANCRE sells the monographs for those ships.  Boudriot did a lot of monographs and research other than the 74's.   Gerard Delacroix also has monographs which where the one for the 1st rate is listed.  

 

Websites:

http://ancre.fr/en/

http://gerard.delacroix.pagesperso-orange.fr/sommaire.htm

 

Thanks very much Mark, but I think I beat you to it by a couple minutes:) I saw your first message and googled my way to the Ancre French site, where among the frigate plans you pointed me to, I also found that Boudriot had done quite a bit more than just study French 74s. I'm revising my assessment to him being an alien lizard-man who only sleeps once every 100 years. For five minutes. And then they go back to working on French ships from the 17th-18th century. Pretty weird aliens if you ask me.

 

Anyway, thanks again, major contribution to the war effort :) I'll post screenshots here once I've added color and lighting to them.

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Also, I sent some mail to M. Delacroix who wrote the monograph on Le Commerce, asking if he could make a good deck plan available to me. If he doesn't respond or says no, I'll bite the bullet and buy that too, good lord those are expensive books.

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Bump on one of the questions, does anyone have any ideas on ammunition loadouts for France/Spain? If we assume Britain/US was ~ 120 RPG with say 90 round shot, 15 bar and 15 grape/cannister for the heavy guns, what would be your best estimates for breakdown for France and Spain?

 

The anecdotal data makes it sound like the French sailed with 120 RPG of chain shot, but that's silly. I have to assume they carried more chain shot than the British did bar, but how much? And the Spanish seem to have favored disabling shot more than the British as well, but not as much as the French, so same question for them.

 

Also anyone have ideas on differences in effectiveness and/or range for bar vs. chain? Do we know why Britain favored bar while the French preferred chain?

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You might ask Mr. Delacroix about the loadout.  He's the next best expert in my opinion since Boudriot died.  

 

I think the 74 Gun Ship book might have something for them.   I'll check my History of the French Frigate and see if I can find anything.

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You're right, it does, and that was a duh on my part since I purchased the set recently. I have been reading the first volume and had entirely set aside the other three for later, forgetting that undoubtedly one of them would be going over all ship's stores in excruciating detail. 

 

And it does, French gunpowder was 3/4 salpetre, 1/8 sulphur and 1/8 charcoal. The sulphur comes from Mt. Vesuvius or Mt. Etna, and the charcoal was black alder although limewood could also be used.

 

According to that authority, they carried 60 RPG round shot for the 18 and 36 pounders, 10 RPG grape shot and 10 RPG bar shot. Not chain. I thought the French used chain shot whereas the British used bar, I guess I was wrong. If the French weren't using chain shot then who the heck was and why do we even have the term? Was chain an earlier implementation later replaced by bar?

 

Anyway, if the French were always shooting at the rigging, it must have been just at the beginning of the engagement and just against their first target, there simply aren't enough RPG to do anything else. It seems odd that the historical references constantly discuss French trying to disable rigging, but M. Boudriot says they carried no more anti-rigging rounds than the British did.

 

Thanks for the reminder, more good useful info. If the British and French are basically identical for their SOLs, we can assume the Spanish were not significantly different, at least I've not read anyone remarking on wildly different ammunition loadouts or gunnery doctrine for Spain.

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Ok, found another source in a book that I remembered I had but had forgotten that it went into so much detail on armament, and that's Robert Gardiner's Frigates of the Napoleonic Wars.

 

Unfortunately he muddies the water a bit with different numbers.

 

He says for the main armament of Royal Navy frigates in 1800 was:

 

100/70 RPG round Foreign/Channel

3 RPG bar

50(!) RPG grape

10 RPG case

 

So if anything dismantling shot had gone even more out of fashion in the RN at least. He then goes on to comment that this was a mistake, because a few years later they went to war with the US which carried "25% dismantling shot and knew how to use it", pointing out that in the case of all three of the RN frigate losses, those ships had first had their tops disabled and that assisted in their capture. It would be interesting to see what their loadout was in 1820.

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Jay

 

The following is a partial chart from the British Admiralty circa 1790 PRO ADM 160/150 and can be found in full in Volume II of The History of English Sea Ordinance by  Adrian Carruana.  

 It shows gun sizes and quantities of shot for each 100 gun down to 18 gun vessels.  Hope this is of some help and not more confusion.

Allan

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Jay

 

The following is a partial chart from the British Admiralty circa 1790 PRO ADM 160/150 and can be found in full in Volume II of The History of English Sea Ordinance by  Adrian Carruana.  

 It shows gun sizes and quantities of shot for each 100 gun down to 18 gun vessels.  Hope this is of some help and not more confusion.

Allan

 

Geez that is perfect Allan, thanks, no need to extrapolate for various ship rates and can provide a basis for the French/Spanish/US/NL as well. Thanks!

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Jay

 

Glad it is of some help to you.  Keep in mind that the various rates had different size cannon at various times.  The 44's for example had the carronades so this is a guide line, not necessarily to be taken as gospel. 

 

Allan

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As soon as a ship goes active, a good experienced group of Officers and Senior crewmen will throw those lists out as far as controlling. All would be collecting extra material to keep the ship going and for trading material. Make your game realistic, include some shortages and overages in the mix, that's how it would be in the real world.

jud :pirate41:

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Jay

 

Glad it is of some help to you.  Keep in mind that the various rates had different size cannon at various times.  The 44's for example had the carronades so this is a guide line, not necessarily to be taken as gospel. 

 

Allan

 

Yes, I have been reading The Ship of the Line, Vol. 1: The Development of the Battlefleet, 1650-1850 by Brian Lavery, it is (so far) the single best book I have found on the progressive development of battle fleet sailing vessels, it does a better job than any other I've seen of explaining how we got from galleons to the units comprising the battle fleets in 1815. It has regular discussions of the changing armament of ships and actually has some very interesting charts of the broadside weight of several long-lived 2nd and 3rd rate 17th century vessels that extended into the 18th- pretty sure Speaker herself was one of them. It shows an initial weight around 500lbs, peaking at almost 1200lbs around 1670 and then back down to around 600lbs 20 years later after the RN went through its first "holy $%^& we overgun the crap out of our ships" review.

 

I'm glad I pulled out that book on Napoleonic frigates as well, although the main focus time period is narrow I'd forgotten that that book is also very good in explaining the development of the frigate, the real 5th rate frigates, not the 17th century Speaker class et al.

 

Of course both of them like the vast majority of EN language books are about 92% coverage of the Royal Navy, with occasional mentions of developments elsewhere. I think I need to buy some of those godawful expensive Ancre books to get a better understanding of the French at least, although I guess I should work my way through The 74 Gun Ship first. Anyone have any recommendations for Spain?

 

 

As soon as a ship goes active, a good experienced group of Officers and Senior crewmen will throw those lists out as far as controlling. All would be collecting extra material to keep the ship going and for trading material. Make your game realistic, include some shortages and overages in the mix, that's how it would be in the real world.

jud :pirate41:

 

That's a good point, was already thinking about that but you're correct, that has to be included. Easy enough to build in some randomization of the ammo loadout at the time the ship objects are created, and also easy to make that a param settable in the scenario.

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It's expensive and hard to find (I lucked out a few years back), but if you can find Boudriot's "The History of the French Frigate, 1650-1850", that should give you much of what you need for French frigates. Excellent, excellent book.

 

 

Best part....it's in English!

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Thanks Talos, I saw that at the Ancre site and I started drooling reflexively. I think you're right, I need that book two. Twist my arm  ;)

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Hi Jay,

 

ANCRE sells the monographs for those ships.  Boudriot did a lot of monographs and research other than the 74's.   Gerard Delacroix also has monographs which where the one for the 1st rate is listed.  

 

Websites:

http://ancre.fr/en/

http://gerard.delacroix.pagesperso-orange.fr/sommaire.htm

 

I contacted M. Delacroix and he was nice enough to send me a beautiful detailed deck plan of the Commerce de Marseilles at high res that is perfect for what I need to do. So this was another winner Mark, thanks.

 

I'd forgotten to ask him about the loadout, I will do so.

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Thanks Talos, I saw that at the Ancre site and I started drooling reflexively. I think you're right, I need that book two. Twist my arm  ;)

 

*twisttwist*

 

Though if there's anything specific you need looked up, I'd be happy to do that for you.

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I would suggest downloading John Muller's "Treatise of Artillery". There are a couple of chapters on velocities and range. It was published in 1768 which might be earlier than you are looking. 

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I would suggest downloading John Muller's "Treatise of Artillery". There are a couple of chapters on velocities and range. It was published in 1768 which might be earlier than you are looking. 

 

Thanks Don. I think I saw that at archive.org and bypassed it, I'll go back and look.

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*twisttwist*

 

Though if there's anything specific you need looked up, I'd be happy to do that for you.

 

I went to Abe Books and ended up with a leather-bound limited edition version, which was expensive of course but still cheaper than versions available through Amazon. And actually it was considerably less expensive than mint versions of the British version of the book.

 

I blame you for this.

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I went to Abe Books and ended up with a leather-bound limited edition version, which was expensive of course but still cheaper than versions available through Amazon. And actually it was considerably less expensive than mint versions of the British version of the book.

 

I blame you for this.

 

I'll fully take the blame, because I know you'll love the book. ;) It's a really fascinating read.

 

Congrats on the find!

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I'll fully take the blame, because I know you'll love the book. ;) It's a really fascinating read.

 

Congrats on the find!

 

Oh yeah, I know I will. I like permanent solutions to problems, and this should provide answers to every question I have on French frigates. I also assume both of M. Boudriot's works will maintain their value, so anyone else interested, you shouldn't hesitate too much - you could always get your money back out of them in a year or two with no problems.

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And I got the book, and yeah... well that's pretty much everything most anyone would need to know about French frigates. At least if you need to ask very many questions from here you're asking questions to which only a very small fraction of humanity knows the answer, and you're definitely pushing the edges of primary research.

 

I have no idea why some of the British versions were listed as more expensive than this copy, this one is fully leather bound with tooling etc,, gilt-edge pages and the paper quality and printing quality are really exceptional. If someone is going to go and spend the money for a copy of this book, I really recommend the limited edition leather version if you can find one.

 

Thanks Talos, this was a very good library addition.

donrobinson, trippwj, Canute and 1 other like this

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