HMCSS Victoria 1855 by Banyan - 1:72

[cog]

 

As Russ wrote ... uncanny

[popeye the sailor]

some really great progress Pat.........love the bench.   your end result will be some my-t fine detail   

[BANYAN]

Thanks Russ, Carl and Denis - appreciate the support.  Off to progress the rigmaiden lanyards - only 36 to do - ugh!

 

cheers

 

Pat

Edited November 24, 2017 by BANYAN

[Jim Lad]

Beautiful work on very small parts.  The stud link cable also looks very good - of your manufacture?

 

John

[DaveRow]

Hi Pat,

Some very nice things happening your workshop.

Your craftsmanship is developing very nicely their.

 

[BANYAN]

Thanks for looking in and kind comments John and Dave.  Alas, the cable is a bought aftermarket; not to that ability yet. It is 0.25mm oversize, but smallest I can find.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[BANYAN]

Another small conundrum to resolve before I finalise the rigmaiden lanyards (see last image - From The Mechanics Magazine - out of copyright).

 

Whereas in most earlier sailing ships using deadeyes and rope lanyards, the chainplates conform/align with the angle of the shroud the associated plate attaches to at the channel.  From what I can see in the following photo (one marked up, the other as is for verification of detail) and the two lithograph details (curtesy of the State Library of Victoria), it appears that the chainplates on Victoria were simply at right angles to the channel and hull when looking straight a them (still bent to get the right angles to approach the hull when looking fore-and-aft).

 

      

 

cheers

 

Pat

Edited November 25, 2017 by BANYAN

[wefalck]

I love these 'steam-punk' details one does not see very often on models. There are several models in the museum in Paris that show such alternatives to the classical dead-eyes, with which the French navy seems to have experimented since the 1830s.

 

It is interesting to note that many technological innovations diffused only slowly into the navies. Apart from conservativism in the higher echelons one reason is that battle or storm damage was more difficult fix without a shipyard.

[BANYAN]

Thanks Eberhard, that is a very interesting observation about 'shipyard' support and well worth me remembering for some other equipment selections.  The 'Victoria' being built by a commercial yard and not for Admiralty, although to RN standards, allowed significant departure from many of the 'current' practices and fit in RN ships of that era.

 

Based on the evidence above, I think I will go with the non-aligned chainplates as depicted.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[popeye the sailor]

will you be adding in the adjustment tool seen in the diagram?  chances are,  there was one for all of the shroud 'stations' {port and starboard,  at all three masts}

    it would be neat to see them hanging on the inner bulwarks  

[BANYAN]

Hi Denis, great to hear from you again and your thoughts on the lanyard tensioning device.  I have thought about that quite a bit and raised it with club members. 

 

A group discussion came to the consensus, that as the ship was minimum manned (as per a merchantman rather than a warship), it is unlikely they would have the manpower to adjust more than one or two shrouds at a time (in pairs).  As such it was decided that she probably only had a couple of them, with one or two as spares.  The thought was these were probably kept in the bosun's locker and not exposed to the elements - accordingly we don't plan on making or showing any at all.  We also need to consider that the shrouds were 'wire rope' which is not prone to stretching, and as the lanyards were metal also, once set up, there probably was not a great need to adjust them like rope lanyards?

 

The lanyards will be made in two parts, and attach at the channels to the plates as a swivel.  I have tried making these on the mill but the brass bar/strip is so small it is difficult to achieve consistent results (with my limited skills anyway) - so we are looking for somewhere to have them done as Photo Etch.  We haven't been able to find anyone in Australia so I will be searching for a source overseas very soon.  The required detail to etch from both sides will need a specialist I think as it is not a simple etch process I could do at home.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[cog]

HAve them made so you can fold them in two for strength. On my builds with PE there are quite a few parts which are folded (not for strengt, but for the look of strength) It is easier to etch a thin sheet, than a thicker one, at least if you need to get holes ...

 

Cheers

[wefalck]

I know this etching-problem very well: for instance, you cannot have raised rivets on both sides of a part with just one go in etching. You have to have two parts back to back. I designed my frets so that I have register-holes through which I can insert locating pins and then soldered two mirror-image frets together. As noted above this also has the advantage that you can work with thinner sheet, which reduces the amount of undercutting. To facilitate soldering with a minimum of solder, I cleaned and degreased the frets carefully and then plated them in a tinning solution. For the actual soldering you only need some flux and a tiny amount of soldering paste.

[popeye the sailor]

they do sell brass strip...cut to length,  drill holes the entire length.   hope you solve the problem      great and interesting to see.

[BANYAN]

Hi Carl, Eberhard and Denis; thanks for all the great feedback and discussion. 

 

Denis, I have found the correct size brass plate/strip at 1.5mm wide.  The total length is 9mm per item (upper and lower) so it would be very difficult (for me at least) to set these up in a mill and consistently replicate the small holes and slots exactly.  A special jig/holding tool would be required and I do not have those manufacturing skills unfortunately

 

Carl and Eberhard; I agree fully.  The plan is to have the bottom part done as a single etched piece as it is just three holes and a slot.  I have to toyed with options for the upper strap which is a little more complicated as it is a series of holes and an eye formed by folding the strap over on itself using a former to bulge it a little.  This is the preferred way, as you have also observed, by etching on thinner stock then folding it.  My biggest problem here is that I would need to create and fit a very small bolt in the middle to join the two parts together and I am not sure how to achieve that yet.  The other option of etching it as a complete piece (both joined) will be much more difficult as you have pointed out, but we are exploring whether or not it is possible.  I have to find someone that can do the photoetch first as all known sources here in Australia have shut their shop  

 

Eberhard, that is an interesting technique of soldering and I would like to explore that further.  What is tinning solution please?  I have tinned by soldering onto the surface of one side, then use heat transfer on the outer side of the other piece to join the other part to it - is that what you mean?  With the folded strap option, I need to fit a very small spacer at the base of the eye (bottom of the throat) to maintain equal spacing of the straps with the gap formed by joining to the lower part (hope that makes sense) which would be the only soldering required?

 

Light bulb moment - If the etch of the upper strap, when folded, gave the impression of the bolt head one side, and washer and nut on the other, then I could solder the two parts together even if I lose the flexibility of the joint (I still have the flex-joint where it joins with the chainplate) - glad you resolved that for me

 

cheers

 

Pat 

[cog]

Does the lower part slide in between the upper parts sides? What I mean is is the upper part a U form or just a plain strip. If a U form, you can have an etched part with two folds, you can still use your nut and bolt thing, and you can solder the lower part to the upper part for strength, or use a pin to fix them together

[BANYAN]

Hi Carl, thanks for the suggestion.  I had thought of that option also, but that means the brass stock would need to be extra thick as the part that slips between the upper part sides is the same thickness as the straps themselves.  I think it may be easier (and cheaper) to simply slip a piece in and solder both sides?  I am still open to this idea though as it is the simplest, but I think I would need stock 2 x thickness just for these small bits to be part of the etch on one side of the total strip?

 

The fold itself should be straightforward as I can bend it around a drill bit or the like (as a mandrel) but I like the idea of the fold creases being etched in to ensure consistent bending points and size.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[wefalck]

Pat, the tinning solution I use is a German commercial product. They don't give the composition, but it most likely contains Sn(II)-chloride, hydrochloric acid and thiourea. You just dip the copper or brass part into the solution and by a currentless (so it is not a galvanic process) electrochemical reaction a thin layer of tin is formed. In itself it may be too thin for soldering, unless the two parts are really pressed together, but with a bit of soldering paste one can easily solder together etched frets. As a matter of fact, I almost always tin my etched frets in this way to facilitate soldering, unless I want the brass colour. Also, when the painting is not perfect, the silvery colour shines through and looks more like iron than the original brass colour, of course.

 

I also tin like this other brass parts that are meant to simulate iron or steel - this is usually better than painting.

[BANYAN]

Thanks Eberhardt, I will need to look for some of that as it sounds very useful.  Do you have a brand name I can look for please?
 

cheers

 

Pat

[wefalck]

Pat, it is not really a brand, but was sold by a German trader specialising in modelling tools (https://www.fohrmann.com/). I just checked, but they don't list it anymore. Ther German term to look for would be 'Glanzverzinnung'.

 

Actually, I do have a very useful antique book from the 1880s or so that has a lot of useful recipes for making all sorts of workshop solutions and materials yourself - from a time, when you couldn't just go into a shop or mail-order such things. I should check, whether there is a suitable recipe in it - though nowadays with all those safety and environmental concerns it becomes difficult to buy the ingredients ...

[cog]

Maybe this will help. If so, at amazon.de it is rather expensive. I can get it for € 5. exc shipping. Maybe you can get it at your end of the globe, or something similar

[wefalck]

Actually, no. This is a deoxidiser for soldering-iron tips. Something different from a tin-solutions that plates brass etc. through a chemical reduction reaction.

[cog]

Thanks for the warning wefalck, it's what  I got on several Dutch sites for the term you used above ...

[wefalck]

Found a recipe: 40ml 25% H2SO4; 5 g SnCl2; 50g Thiourea. Add the sulfuric acid to 700 ml distilled water and dissolve the tin-chloride in it, add the thiourea and add more distilled water to give 1 l solution. I would divide the recipe by 10, as it seems to go a long way, the tin layer being only a few micrometres thick. Also the thiourea breaks down after a while which you can see from a yellow layer of elemental sulfur on the inside of the bottle. I have this effect in my commercial product, but it still seems to work. Not sure what the thiorurea does in the recipe.
 

[cog]

"thiourea" It's used a.o., as a fixative. Thought it sounded familiar ... film vs digital photography ...

 

https://www.britannica.com/science/thiourea

Edited December 10, 2017 by cog

[BANYAN]

Thanks for the feedback guys; much appreciated.  

 

Eberhard, if I can't find it anywhere, I may have a go at making that solution; thanks for the 'recipe'

 

Edit: Is this it Eberhard?  Available at Hobby-Lobby Modellbau,

 

 

cheers

 

Pat

Edited December 12, 2017 by BANYAN

[BANYAN]

Hi folks, a lot of small details being prepared and the associated notches, drill holes etc being made to the model in preparation for her coat of paint.  This is almosr complete now and I start the finishing sanding and masking tomorrow.  Hopefully, I will have her primed by the end of this month.

 

Some of the smaller details now finished include the Common Service Lifebuoy (Cook design), the cutter (still needs some tidy up and final paint), and the forecastle (heads still need lids and jibboom needs a tenon to fit into the bitts) ):

   

cheers

 

Pat

Edited January 27, 2018 by BANYAN

[BANYAN]

As part of the final push for finishing, I need to drill for the ends of the rudder chains.  These were used only as preventers and not for emergency steering; an emergency tiller was provided for this.  This raises two questions I hope someone may be able to steer <pun intended> me in the right direction.

 

Q1.  The Contract specified:  "Rudder to be fitted with Rapson's patent slide tiller, pintles, and Lang's tiller abaft the rudder, in case of the rudder head being carried away,also to have one spare tiller."

This implies an iron tiller arm that is fitted above the waterline but outside the hull when required.  My initial thoughts are this might be a iron T bar fitted into a mortice, or yolked around the rudder upper parts, with steering pendants then shackled to eyes on the ends of the T?  Please note c1855.

I have not been able to unearth any info so any info or suggestions most welcomed.

 

Q2.  The photo of the ship (not clear) and the lithographs show the rudder chains terminating at, or passing through the hull just under the counter/transom timber junction.  The enhanced photo suggests some sort of collar BUT, I think this may only be some background 'clutter' which the person enhancing the photo has assumed to be the ship.  i base this on all lithographs not showing this.  See images below.

As these were only to prevent losing the rudder I believe these would have terminated on the hull as shown in all images.  Another contemporary frigate, the Danish 'Jylland' shows the chains extending forward in loops but in this instance I believe it may be to provide sufficient length to use them for emergency steering also as shown by Harland in his book "Seamanship in the the of Sail".

In the absence of better information, I am going to terminate the chains under the counter on eyebolts.  The alternate solution was that the chains went into the hull, hence the perception of collars, and would then be fitted as required to the Lang's Emergency Tiller which was fitted inside rather than outside the ship?

Supporting images - enhanced photo of Victoria counter, Danish frigate Jylland rudder chains (from Jylland Museum website) and illustration from Harland "Seamanship in the the of Sail".  See earlier posts for lithographs etc.

    

 

Any comments, suggestions or corrections most welcomed.

 

cheers

 

Pat

 

 

Edited January 27, 2018 by BANYAN

[russ]

Pat:

Very nice details. The life buoy is especially well done. Impressive work. 

 

Russ

 

 

 

[popeye the sailor]

look'in good Pat