JosephHuntley

HMS Fly Specs Needed

39 posts in this topic

Hey guys I came across some line drawings for the HMS fly but they only are of the hull. how do you calculate the masts and bowsprit etc distances. I am really into sloops of war as my favorite tall ship type I am finding out so trying to mess with coming up with a decent set of plans

 

I will draw this at 1:48 Scale which gives me an overall length of 42.5195625" and overall Height to top of mast at 32.54583"

 

but not sure what the actual hull length would be

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There are a couple of modeller's resources here: http://modelshipworldforum.com/ship-model-rigging-and-sails.phpand here http://modelshipworldforum.com/ship-model-masts-and-yards.php to calculate the rigging.  If you are looking for info on the Swan class (1776), see the fantastic book specific to the Swan class by David Antscherl here https://www.seawatchbooks.com/ItemDisplay.php?sku=115002

 

Hope this helps!

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I agree with Wayne.  The Fully Framed Model by David Antscherl is the way to go.  Volume four goes into rigging in detail and the supplement that I just received yesterday is a great treatise on sail making using silkspan.   Plans are available from The National Maritime Museum for specific ships and detailed plans that go with the books for the Swan Class sloops are available through the Admiralty Models website.  The books are available from Seawatch Books.

 

Allan

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ok thanks so your saying that basically each class of ships have a basic ratio for the mast sizes etc?

 

I did see those 4 books and read somewhere they were ok but didnt tell much on the actual ship was more on a model build.

 

I spent til 430 this am trying to find plans for swan class even amiralty but wasnt happy with what I could find. I did get some line drawings so will eventually trace them and go from scratch. I did download a ton of books on building, riggin, framing older ships that I still need to read up on. so I am slowly building up my research library

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hehe ok went to links yes yesterday I downloaded all them articles from model ship place and have them all in a nice folder. so beat you to the punch hehehehe

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A masting and sparring plan at 1/4" scale (1:48) is available from Admiralty Models - link on the home page here,

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thanks I will probably draw everything from scratch as I have had problems before ordering plans and find that they are usually not worth the high price some places put on them. I am used to modeling aircraft and get complete total plans for no more than 50 bucks. I spent 75 bucks for a set of ship plans and get basic outlines with like 6 frames to me that was a rip off. i have gotten 4 plans from places spent over 200 bucks and get the same BS so i will never buy a set of plans for ships anymore unless I fully see what I get first. I been ripped off so many times by these so called shipyard companies that i wont do it again sight unseen

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here is a list of some of the books I have along with a couple ship modelling ones i got few years back like ship modelling simplified and another one

 

Ship Models: How to build them by Charles G. Davis

Building Model Ships from scratch by Kent Porter

The Arming and Fitting of English Ships of War 1600-1815 (Brian Lavery)

The Construction and Fitting of the English Man of War 1650-1850 (Peter Goodwin)

the structures of english wooden ships: William Sutherlands ship, Circa 1710 by Trevor Kenchington

the framing of seventeenth century men of war in england and other northern european countries by Kroum Nickolaev Batchvarov

many anatomy of the ship books

Rigging Period Ship Models - A Step-By-Step Guide to the Intrica

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Mr. JosephHuntley, I will personally and professionally attest to the high quality of anything related to Admiralty Models.  I would suggest that before you make blanket statements about any company, you do your research first.  In this case, start by looking in the scratch building section at any of the several Swan Class ships.  Then you can peruse the Echo Cross Section Forum.  Read the reviews of the books written by the owners of Admiralty Models, David Antscherl and Greg Herbert.  

 

Finally, Admiralty Models is a sponsor of this site.  The Nautical Research Guild, owner of this site would never have a disreputable "...so called shipyard companies..." as a sponsor.

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i understand I am just stating my past bad experiences and didn't list the companies as not wanting to trash anyone. but also from a modeller of 35+ years I have gotten world class plans for aircraft at exact scale drawn from factory microfilm (which I have many), with total plans for retractable landing gear, wiring, exact framing, etc for no more than 50 bucks and I cannot see a set of model ship plans with any less details than the aircraft for 175 bucks. sorry but that doesn't add up especially when most so called plans of ships to me are nothing more than a 3 view drawing.

 

that said i wasn't disparaging the quality of admiralty models I just said I will no longer buy sight unseen any plans from anyone due to being ripped off before

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    18th century warships are not 20th century aircraft.  Somebody somewhere has those detailed, 3D aircraft plans that were developed as part of the design process, no doubt.  A few clicks of the computer ( a bit simplified, of course) and you change the design plans into model plans. 

 

    18th century warships are far more complex and must be hand drawn (at least initially).  Some people have made the effort to take the lines from existing plans and turned them into detailed model plans.  It seems to me that if you want to build a model of a SWAN class sloop of war, you would use the plans and documentation of somebody who has developed detailed plans, written detailed books on the subject.

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Like I have said I need to see what the plans look like first before spending the money.

 

from what I have seen from build shots of Admiralty Models they look clean but look like they on standard A4 sheet which would mean I would have to tape them together or whatever which itself causes errors, however I have only seen bits and pieces of their plans of a few parts and not the plan views so I cannot say either way what I think of them just that I don't plan on spending the money sight unseen now does that mean i am saying they are bad? No it just means I wont spend my hard earned money on something sight unseen that I would rather take me the months or whatever to research and draw my own up.

 

and speaking about the differences in aircraft and ships there is no difference. ships of the type we talking has rare amount of data yes, and yes someone has to research and draw them up, however same is with aircraft you need to sort through 10,000 or more pages of microfilm to find the data you need then draw the part correct the errors etc. it takes as long to do that as it would for a ship.

just because it is 20th century vehicle vs 18th century doesn't mean it is less time consuming or tedious.

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Just adding my two penny-worth to the debate re the last post:

 

It may well be as much effort to produce aircraft plans.  But the cost of this time is presumably similar.  The market for model aircraft plans is undoubtedly much larger,  so the producers will sell far more copies,  and can therefore sell them at a much lower cost per set to re-coup the same initial cost for the time spent.

 

I can say that the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich sells copies of its original ship plans,  and these are about £50 - £60 per sheet for the basic draught,  plus any deck plans etc for a bit less,  as the sheets are smaller.  It is quite possible to see these before purchase,  although much smaller than the full size,  which is 1:48 scale.  These are colour scans,  and show all the different coloured inks used in the original draught.

 

They do have all the 'Swan' class vessels mentioned above,  including 'Fly',  which has a beautiful 'as-built' draught,  a work of art in its own right.

 

The 'Swan' class books by David Antscherl are extremely thorough and guide any potential modeller through every single stage of the work.  They are well-written,  and detailed in their information,  with clear,  neatly drawn illustrations.  Even if not building a vessel from this particular class,  they are very useful as an aid to understanding construction at this period.

 

I have no doubt that no-one on this site with any experience of modelling would have anything other than praise for them. 

 

So if you are serious about building a model of 'Fly',  and do not have much experience as yet,  I would advise getting hold of a copy of the rigging volume,  perhaps through a library or modelling club,  to understand the quality of the product.  The plans available are a complement to the books.

 

All the best,

 

Mark P  

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thanks Mark yes I have seen some pages of the books through various sites and have also downloaded some extremely detailed build logs. I also understand experienced ship modellers praise for the company, however i am doing my research proper as that is a lot of money for a set of plans and I also dont want to be taping everything together just to build a model. paper can expand and shrink due to various reasons and I don't want to spend 175 ish bucks for plans i need to tape together and find out lines don't match up etc. my wife is sickly and doesn't work and so that is a lot for me to spend out at one time. wood is a different matter as I have a complete cabinet shop with tons of scrap wood lying around to use.

 

the one thing experienced people here with them haven't done is address my concerns about having the plans as all A4 type paper and having to tape everything together. are the a4ish paper parts sheets i have seen just parts that fully fit on the sheets and the top and profile plans full sheets at scale or what?

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The Admiralty Models' mast and spar plan is a single, large 24" x 36" sheet - no cobbling together required. They will also refund you if you are dissatisfied and return the plan. The rigging plans (at 1:96 scale) are also large fold-out plans included with Volume IV. 

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The plans the NRG sells for the Galley Washington are 10 sheets of 24" x 36" paper.  The set soon to be released is also 10 sheets of 24" x 36".  This is surely more than the 3 views you mention.

 

Syren Ship Model Co - another sponsor here sells plans on similarly sized paper.   Admiralty Models sells their plan sheets on 24" x 36" sheets - they also provide CAD files that let you print out the individual frames on A4 or 8.5" x 11" paper - that's each frame so they can be printed out as a pattern for the pieces and for a pattern for the glue up.  I think you have misread their information.

 

I know of no ship model plans sold as A4 sheets that need to be taped together - at least from legitimate sources who would be accepted here as advertisers. 

 

Kurt

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thanks Kurt that's the Info I was wanting to here precise info on how their plan sheets are set up.

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So then I can assume the A4 sheets I see in the build threads are the sheets each person printed out from the provided cad drawings. that makes sense to me now why i was seeing them. but yes there are some places that I got some stuff from that was on small sheets needing to be taped together. I just now learning which are the more reputable sites

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Joe,

 

I see that you are just jumping from one project to another.  What is your end goal?   The other three or for projects you have started in the last month have all been from free plans you are finding around the web.  Do you intend to build any of the others you have recently started as a wooden model?  I am just curious as it doesnt seem you ever intend to pay for any plans but just find any that are downloadable from across the web for free.  Many of which are already complete (like mediator and Triton) and you could already start making sawdust.  Are you just planning to make 3D renderings?

 

I am just curious because we would be able to help you if we understood your actual intentions.  The other projects you have already started are enough to last a builder years of pleasure in the workshop.  Watch those foreign sites with the RAR files you have used.....those are a malicious virus waiting to happen.  Others are pirated copies of plans from authors which we will not allow to be used here as a project.  So be careful.

 

Chuck

Admin

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Hi Chuck I am  trying to find something I can fully understand before I cut wood. the others as I was drawing them up found errors in them I need to correct and slowly working on them. I dont mind paying for plans once i know exactly what i am getting. like i said with wife sickly and all the money going out for hospital deductables etc its hard to fully justify spending a lot of money on plans I dont know what I am getting.

 

the plans i have started in cad was so I could understand how thiese old ships go together ie learning how to build them. unfortunatley i am finding some errors need corrected. the triton drawings I was converting for a gentleman back to cad from the pdf. I was using them to try to figure out all the extraneous lines in them. ie as i learned bevels. those bevels are throwing me off as to what the regular flat pattern should be thus i havent started cutting. the wapama and a couple others have errors like the latest the deck chamber and lines are all wavy and not correct and as i was told another person had the same problem. so as much as I want to start building something while sitting here keeping an eye on the wife i havent found something straight forward easy for me to understand. I want to do a POF over a POB and looking for something with overall dimensions of no more than 30" tall so it will fit into my vehicle. I have had 35 yrs to figure all that out with aircraft with ships i have only been trying to find something for a couple months.

I now have several books on framing and designing old ships to read through as I design something for myself but would love to be building something at the same time. I guess I am spoiled by too many years of plain straight out plans for planes where all the parts are layed out as flat 2D parts with no extra stuff added as bevels etc which will come naturally as the wood is sanded. even p[lanes need formers beveled to allow sheeting but no need to dirty up plans showing them. thus why i havent started anything yet as havent found any clean straight forward plans of anything.

 

sorry for taking up space with other posts but i wanted people to chime in if they saw me going in the wrong direction or had problems which i did learn a lot already from those experiences.

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Joseph, perhaps the "pasted up" sheets you have described are from Garyb's Swan class blog. You should reread it.

 

Building a contemporary naval vessel such as as Swan class sloop is a very complex project. Drafting your own plans is even more difficult. It takes months and even years to fully understand all the various lines present on a Navy Board plan. I've been building models of this era for years and still get confused by the various sweeps.

 

"I now have several books on framing and designing old ships to read through as I design something for myself but would love to be building something at the same time"

 

That's terrific, but if you want to build a fully framed sixth rate or Swan class ship now there is no short cut. The Admiralty Models Mylar plan and CD of lofted frames are based on the original plans and corrected for distortions in the paper. You could build a model of a generic Swan class ship using just them but, as a ship model novice builder, you would greatly benefit from the step by step directions of the Swan class books. Also, Toni, Dan and others have posted exceptional blogs of their building experiences, warts and all.

 

Feel free to e-mail me at dvm27@comcast.net if you have any specific questions. I'll be happy to send you a sample frame or two to better understand what you are purchasing.

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thanks greg ill prob take a couple days to read through some build threads and then probably order a set of plans. you are right i can draw up a plane blindfolded and even drew up and built the full scale B-24 bomber for the movie unbroken and the one in the virginia air and space museum as well as a full scale wright flyer for virgin atlantic commercial during the 100th anniversary of flight, but trying to find decent drawings just to start drawing up a nice set of ship plans from totally sux

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I was looking on the admiralty site but couldnt see it listed what is the overall length and height of the fly and what scale would it be at?

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Ok I broke down and decided to order set of plans hoping didnt make a mistake but from the threads I have seen I am guessing I will be pleased with my plans. thanks guys for the input. I know I may have sounded crass but right now that was a lot of money for me but wife said i needed something to do while just sitting round cause I was getting cranky

 

Joe

 

now the wait for them to get here ((

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thanks greg ill prob take a couple days to read through some build threads and then probably order a set of plans. you are right i can draw up a plane blindfolded and even drew up and built the full scale B-24 bomber for the movie unbroken and the one in the virginia air and space museum as well as a full scale wright flyer for virgin atlantic commercial during the 100th anniversary of flight, but trying to find decent drawings just to start drawing up a nice set of ship plans from totally sux

 

 

Joe, I think I can give some clarity being from the aerospace side of things (aerospace engineer/pilot) who also made model planes in the past. Early ship plans and aircraft plans are chalk and cheese. One can build plane models from actual original engineering drawings. Now roll back in history to the 1700's. Ships were built from half models to start with.

 

Only later were plans even produced and often after the event as a record of the ship rather than an engineering drawing to build the ship from. The guys on the forum will know much more about exactly when this started to happen than I do.

 

So what you have is a situation where shipwrights built ships from a set of rules and conventions rather than directly from plans, these rules changing for different classes and nations. To go from this to a working drawing suitable to build a model is a long process.

 

To be fair there are plenty of rubbish plans for aircraft too, many drawn by enthusiasts who were certainly not trained as a draughtsman and this will always show up if converting to CAD, particularly if they did not understand the basics of producing a technical drawing such as projection. Now consider that one is bound to run into this with early ship plans considering what they are and how they came about.

 

Indeed, the available contemporary plans for a wooden ship are of widely varying detail.  Early ships were built by eye and by rule.  A viking ship, for example, was based on proportions along the length and breadth of the ship.  No plans involved.  Early plans were little better than sketches, with a greater focus on the adornments and less on the structural components.  The development of the lines plans (I seem to recall that was during the late 17th early 18th centuries) was a major advancement, meant to complement the builder's model submitted for approval.  These plans were not construction drawings, but rather to guide the workers in the mould loft in laying down the full size moulds.  Into the 20th century, however, many vessels were built using solely the half models, not any plans.

 

It was not until fairly recently in wooden ship years that detailed construction drawings came into use.  The model plans where detailed construction drawings such as individual frames, deck structures, mast & rigging diagrams and so on, are provided are modern attempts by an individual to provide the model builder with tools which the ship  builder of old already knew - they didn't need to be shown the construction of a frame as it was either in the specifications or something they knew.  Likewise the bevels on a frame were found in the mould loft and then transferred to the frames during construction.

 

All in all, perhaps the most detailed model builder plans for a POF model are those for the Swan class, Naiad and similar published by Seawatch books.  Exceptional detail, including plans and books, detailed building descriptions, and wonderful photos of each step.  There are others out there, and some are of like quality, but I haven't researched that enough to speak intelligently about other suppliers.

 

Good luck with the build!

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Joseph,

 

Take all of the comments above seriously, they are good pieces of information for all of us.   There are a few exceptions in later years, and even one or two as early as the early 18th century regarding detailed drawings.   One example are the deck plans of the Hampton Court 1709 which show a lot of details on how the beams were (or were to be constructed), knees, &tc.   When Seppings was in charge in England, there were a number of detailed drawings, especially cross sections showing chocks, joints, metal and wood knees and more.  Alas, anything from the Seppings era is likely too "modern" for your subject build. 

 

Cross sections with a lot of detail from early 19th century and deck plans of the Hampton Court follow   .   Again, these are not commonly found but they do exist. 

 

Allan

 

 

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thanks I am trying to understand it all it is slowly making sense I just need to figure out what need to order for the sloop plans and just how to get them so I have what i need to go with the stuff from Admiralty

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