74 gun ship by Gaetan Bordeleau - 1:24

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

There is another way to get the effect of a lens distance compression with an standard lens.

 

The distance between each part can change depending the angle of the camera.

 

Example with photo 1 and 2: photo of 3 objects : photo taken in front or at angle

 

Photo from front :  the 3 objects have a distance    between them.

Photo from  side :   the 3 objects have no distance between them.

 

[Bill Hime]

Hello Gaetan,

Just finished reading through your log start to finish. What a wonderful endeavor! I'm following closely, so much to learn here. This will be invaluable to my future build of the Constitution in 1:24 scale.

 

Sincere Regards,

 

Bill

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

Hi Bill, 

 

Building the Constitution at 1/24 is surely a nice project. You know that it is easier to build at 1/24 scale simply because each part are easier to hold. I guess that is the reason why we 5 fingers in each hand instead of only 2.

 

This is my third build  here on MSW at that scale : 74 guns in MSW 1.0, Le Fleuron, finished at the beginning of this year and now this one.

 

 

Hi Joe, thank you very much

 

I tried  the free E-viewer (Mac or Windows) and I guess this is probably the kind of program which would be perfect to manipulate a 3D plans by an amateur like me. Who knows, may be a guy will sell a 3D plans one day! I surely would like to buy a copy. Being in the scratbuild category, the ideal SET OF PLANS for me would be data I could put on a key and go to the printer for 2D plans and study  the 3D  plans on screen. I suppose it would be easy for someone drawing 3D to also incorporate a 2D version for printing.

 

 

Enough dreaming, one last picture to show how to  cheat the distance on a 1/76 build. This time another kind of lens; the wide angle. In this category, there is also the fisheye but this is more for an artisitic point of view, this lens take a line and turn it in a curve.

 

I like to use a wide angle lens to give the illusion of a greater distance. Here is an example at 11 and 22 mm. So, camera is our friend,  but it is not an human eye. Knowing the possibilities, sometimes it is interesting to try some photos with our model ship under construction.

 

[korablik1979]

Good afternoon, Gaetan.
I immediately apologize for my wrong (broken) English. I hope it can be understood correctly without looking at Google translation.
Tell me, is it possible to photograph Minerva in detail? Ship sculpture for me represents a separate, special interest. I really like to see the carving on the models of ships. And I try to constantly replenish the collection of photos of different figures.
At you, probably, separate emotions to seventy-four gun Budrio, you so often do this model in different scales. Tell me, what is the reason for this decision? Do they have differences besides dimensions?

Sincerely, Alexander

Edited August 7, 2017 by korablik1979

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

Hi Alexander,

 

The choice of the scale will have a major impact on the quality of your carving. If 1/48 up to 1/100 is a common scale among modelers, it is simply because a model at that scale is easy to manipulate. Then there are the other 2 ends; very small or bigger.

 

On a scale of how difficult to how easy is the carving : the smaller the scale, the harder it will be to carve. A figurehead at 1/200 requires the higher degree of concentration you can achieve. This means the morning is a good time to do it, not after a big day of work. Strangly even if that scale requires that you must be in control of your moves, it is not that scale which will produce the best results. At that scale, a very good pair of magnifying glass is essential and you need more lights; ideally 2 : 1 each side at 45 degrees to elimate shadows.

 

 

The bigger the scale you will use the more precise will be each part of the human body. At 1/200, the 4 fingers of a hand will be together and at 1/24 it will be easier to carve each finger separately. At a bigger scale, it is easier to distinguish  muscles separately.

 

 

On last item, tools :   we can separate the main tools in 2 categories : knives or rotating burs. Even if knives are preferred by many, it is easier to carve with burs. The reason is easy :it is easier to control a bur and it is much more difficult to control a knife that you push in the wood.

[korablik1979]

Thank you for your reply, Gaetan.
Most likely I made poorly the words and the meaning of my question remained for you is not clear. I understand that the degree of details  of sculptures depends on the scale of the model.
I was interested in something else. I see pictures of you on which there are several variants of the same ship. And they are all on different scales. I understand that the construction of each model took a lot of time. Therefore, I had a question: for what reason do you make the same ship? Why, once you do it, do not you do it another time? Usually this happens when work is done under the order for sale to the customer. And after the construction is over, these models leave to live in the collection for their new owners. But then I see that all the models are in one place. So I was wondering why did you make such a choice? This reminded me of the film "Amelie", when one of the characters of this film each year drew the same picture.
I hope now I was able to correctly describe what interested me. You are so fond of this ship, and you are very fond of building it, or is there some secret hidden here? Or maybe I misunderstood and in fact all these models actually went to different customers? Please, open this secret. Very interesting!
P.S. Often I come across the fact that very many craftsmen in Europe, America and other parts of the world prefer to make threads with an electric tool. I'm very interested to see how the sculptures made by hand knives differ from those that were made with the help of power tools. This is a big difference. I noticed that the choice of the instrument is related to the material of the sculpture. There are such species of wood that are very, very, very difficult to cut with knives. And the only way out for such a solid tree is the burs. Tell me, what kind of wood do you make your carving from? And why do you choose this kind of tree. What is the advantage of this choice? For example, I noticed that many masters in the west choose for carving boxwood.

 I tried to cut this tree and for me it seemed too solid.  I like to make carving with knives and when I tried cutting with knives and chisels boxwood, I realized that this tree is ruining and "kill" my tool. Therefore, I try to choose this type of wood, so that it would be convenient to work with knives. To the tree was solid enough to work on it even small parts, but not so solid to spoil my knives. This is the first reason. And the second reason: I try to look for a tree very close to the color and tone that old masters used in past centuries. Tell me, please, what tree do you choose and for what reasons is this choice?

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

Google translator works pretty well. I understand your 3 questions.

 

1- Why do I make the same ship for the fourth time?  

 

a-    the first reason : I wanted to explore the differences between scales. I chose a small scale, a standard scale and a big scale : 1 /196, 1/48, 1/24. The conclusion was : the bigger the scale, the easier it is to work. The main reason being that it is easier to hold a piece of wood with a hand instead of only 2 fingers. We have more control by using the hand.

b-    the second reason : for me, it is not a problem to make 4 versions of the same ship, even if it is the same ship, it will be 4 different presentations and in each  version new technics are explored.

c-     The third reason, my prefered part in the building of a model ship is to work with wood. By using the 74 guns by Boudriot, he did all the reseach and the plans and what is left to do is my favorite part to build a model ship with wood.

 

 

2- The choice of tools : Knives vs power tools

 

You like to carve with knives To get good results, you use a soft wood user friendly for your knives.

 Boxwood ‘’ kills’’ your knives  and it is too difficult to carve.

 

I like to use rotary burrs; easy to use and strenght is not needed. I take advantage of the power of the electric tool. The tool being easier to control, better results are easier to achieve.

 

3- The choice of wood.

 

Carving a detailed figurehead in soft head cannot produce sharp details.

The only way to get sharp details is to use dense wood.

For a small scale as we use, the best there is,  with a high density and fine grain, Boxwood.

[korablik1979]

Thank you very much for such a detailed answer. Now I know the answers to the questions that prevented me from sleeping. I am very glad.

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

Time for a fresh update;

 

This is the second time that there is a dry fit assembly of the frames and  the keel.

The first time, showed in earlier photos, was to make sure that each frame fits on the keel. This time, is to make sure that completed frames  fit on the keel, in relation to each other to form  a regular curve. Still, the height of few frame needs to be adjusted.

 

A lot of sanding  of the frames will be done before gluing.

 

This time, to help to hold all the frames together; elastics are used massively. Each frame have at least 2, 1 on each side. On the first photo, there is a 1meter ruler.

 

Just before the last photo, the previous build of the 74 guns show the first method used: Hahn style but not upside down.  

 

On the last photo we can see other tools to help to make the work easier. One of the first tool, a ship modeler should buy is a height adjusting table. It is of course possible to do the work always at the same height but it is much easier to do the wotk at the good height.

 

One last item, on that same picture; all the ’’small ’’ tools are regrouped  in the same tool chest. Before the were in many different smaller tool chest.

[michael mott]

Good morning Gaetan, I always enjoy reading through you build log. I come away with new ideas every time. Your photographs tell me a great deal about the organization of your tools and your workshop structure. Now that I have the opportunity to redo my own workshop, your comments about working heights are timely. Sometimes I like to sit and work and sometimes I stand.  the other day I was looking at the adjustable crank table that is sold at a well known Scandinavian furniture place, it is adjustable from 29 inches to 54 inches but felt a bit wobbly at the upper limit.

Other than your dental chair modified work table have you found any other type of adjustable table suitable or have you built your own?

 

I also agree that building at the larger scale is so much easier to do, it is why I choose 1/8th but it does limit the size of prototype for me about 50 feet maximum.

 

Michael

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

1 hour ago, michael mott said:

Other than your dental chair modified work table have you found any other type of adjustable table suitable or have you built your own?

 

 

 

Before the dental chair, it was a pain to change working height, it had to be manual mechanical ways. Ikea hand crank table would be in this same category. It is not really made to be constantly height modulate. I would see 2 different avenues. Dental chairs have the same screw motor that you could built a table with. The easiest way is to buy an electric height table. Depending of the motors in can raise between 150 and 300 pounds. Here in Quebec on Kijiji site, we can buy a dental chair used between 3 and 7 hundred dollars. The only thing I had  to do was to put a table on top and put a set of wheels under. 

 

 

 

Here is how I tried to group these 5 words together this morning after reading a post on copyright:

 

74 guns plans, 3D, copyright, group project

 

Many peoples have drawn frames for the 74 guns. 

Many peoples dreams to draw and then sell these plans.

I know nothing about copyright, but if I understand well, when somebody does not want a third person to make money on his back, he uses  this symbol ©. Does he have to do a specific action  of registering something somewhere, this is a complete mystery for me.

Many other peoples on this forum did or would like to draw these famous missing frames from the 74 guns.

 

Modelship building is a hobby for me. To make money with it is not a goal. What happens if I draw a set of plans, keel and frames for the 74 guns, and I have no money  intention.

 

I think that the 2 main reasons to draw these frames are :

To build the 74 guns ship, or just to make his hand, you need a set of plans for the frames 2D or 3D, or

To sell the plans after. Up to now, we know that 1 people selling the plans for the frames.

 

Here is what I was thinking this morning while reading  a post on copyright. If I do a work and I put it in public cloud with free access, or even better in this forum, then may be (as I said copyright is a mystery for me), may be copyright would not be needed as nobody wants to make money with it.

 

I guess this is the same idea as putting  a log on this forum. Personnally, here is how I see it : when I put a photo in this log,  Public access becomes the  owner of this photo and everybody can use it as he wants. To me trying to find  a copyright  way  for my log is useless.  If a write a log on this forum, this is not to sell anything but rather to share my hobby.

 

If many peoples draw these frames for different reasons and these set of plans rest somewhere unused after. What if the peoples desiring or actually drawing 2D or 3D plans would unite in a group project creating a set of plans for the 74  or another project and give access to everybody? The goal of this group would be to create a set of plans free of use.

 

 

[DocBlake]

Incredible work!  That  ship is immense!

[Dilbert55]

Wow! Gaetan, How much will your ship weigh once completed?

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

Hi Dilbert,

 

Similar one, also at 1/24: 130 pounds

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

Here is the idea of how frames join to the keel. The kind of filler added under the frame was to save wood.  I tried some to see what it look like. This is the kind of details which disappears when all the frames are assembled. With this  carpentry, a frame holds solidly on the keel.

[rwiederrich]

Truly amazing...

 

Rob

[G. Delacroix]

Hello,

As has been said in another subject, there is never a "talonnier" on the 1/2 varangue.

 

GD

 

 

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

So roughly for 60 frames minus  frames of both end, roughly 35 frames at 1 by frame would be about 35 which is much less than I thought..

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

Another try on the other side to prevent rotten wood.

In the background, the plan showing a notch each side of the keel for the water flow.

 

The notches, I think are drawn on this plan only. This is the kind of reason  when a detail is shown on 1 plan only, it can difficult to visualize the other dimensions.

 

This is in this kind  of reason why I would like to see a 3D keel  included with the drawings.

[Sailor1234567890]

Limber holes, or the limber passages are what those notches are called. I know in some vessels, they'd put a chain through it and if the limber holes got clogged, a yank on the chain back and forth a few times would often be enough to clear any offending detritus.

[Mau]

Hi Gaetan,

 

Viewing the pieces on 1/24 is very enlightening. And I especially like when the photos are taken at the time of making.
Perfect !!
 

Greetings.

 

Mauricio

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

Picture  already shown  by Hjx; limber hole at the aft.

I do not see  how the water harvested by the limber hole would go so deep!

Is it necessary to go so far with this line?

[korablik1979]

Hello, Gaetan.
If memory does not fail, it seems in the first volume Budrio describes limber holl. There should also be a scheme with axonometry.

 

It shows how far these cuts should go. In the drawings in the top view it is difficult to disassemble, especially in the areas of the stems, where the desired line merges with the keel due to the bends of the frames and it is not clear how the limber holes should go. 

 

 

This is a very interesting system.

Especially when compared as a function of drainage was performed in different countries. 
The Dutch were very original. Here it is visible. 

They did not do the cuts, but made additional beams, which allowed the cladding to be fastened so that a slit was deposited to drain the water to the pumps.
If you read historical works, you can find very interesting stories about this system. During the Anglo-Dutch War, the British were greatly surprised that the captured Dutch ships had virtually no critical wood decay. This said that the  system drainage very good at its task.

Over time, the English have slightly modified the location of the limber canal. They began to make it close to the keel. This was justified, since the keel had the lowest point in the hold. Try to search in the works of Seppings, he describes this innovation. It's all a little lyrical digression.

During the construction of the seventy cannon ships, they had not yet guessed.

And again: you are not doing the right  a Recess. The channel must go perpendicular to the outer edge of the frame. Take a closer look, it's clearly visible on your own drawing. At you the propyl is made not absolutely truly. I tried to show this in your photo.

 

When I studied this element, I came to the conclusion that it is more convenient to do it a little later, when all the frames will be in place. Then, with the help of a thread, it will be possible to accurately mark the whole gagging immediately. And just saw through all the timbers at once. If done separately as you do now, you will not get a smooth line in the collection.

[druxey]

I suppose that the rising limber channel would go only as high as water might be expected to accumulate in the bilge. I agree that Figure 47 (right) makes it seem awfully high. If water rose that far, would it perhaps be time to abandon ship?

[korablik1979]

10 minutes ago, druxey said:

Я полагаю, что восходящий лимитированный канал будет идти так высоко, как можно ожидать, что вода будет накапливаться в трюме. Я согласен с тем, что на рисунке 47 (справа) это кажется ужасно высоким. Если бы вода поднялась так далеко, возможно, было бы время отказаться от корабля?

No it's not. Along the edges, the canal was elevated for water to have a good angle without water, and it did not just stand at the stems, but flowed to the midsection, where the pumps were. During the breakdown, the ship can tolerate much more water in the hold and not sink. Remember the moment from the film about Aubrey after the first meeting with the French. He went down to the hold to check the water level. There was a swimming pool in which it was easy to swim. And the ship stayed afloat. Limber canal needs were needed when there was not much water in the hold, it stood in the form of small puddles and this was enough to spoil the tree. With a large leak, the water itself reached the pump and was pumped out of the hold.
 

[Sailor1234567890]

The lower the limber holes are, the better they'll do their job. If you make the holes 3 inches above the bottom, there will always be 3 inches of water between that pair of frames. Best practice is to place them on the bottom so ANY water flowing at the lowest point will drain to the pumps.

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

Many minds together will always be stronger than only one.

I think it would be safe to assume that the covered area would be only in the lower part as in picture one.

there is something wrong in the second picture. To go through the limber hole channel water must be at least 2-3 feet high before being able to reach the limber hole.

Water accumulation in that lower area would probably conduct to rotten wood.

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

The idea is not to create wooden pocket which could accumulate water and have the wood to rotten.

 

2 ways to solve the problem: make a hole in the bottom of the pocket, fore and aft ‘’keel’’ would be 100% wood with no air pocket. Naturally, all wood joints are covered with tar. The disadvantage of this last solution, more wood, heavier ship.

[JohnE]

Hello Gaetan,

 

I think the drain notch should go all the way forward and aft. Connect all the frames/couples that have space between them, including crotches on deadwood and apron. Ship has a pitching motion, and if there is water above the floorboards amidships, it will slosh forward when the ship pitches down, and slosh aft when the ship pitches up. It seems a good idea to drain away water from the space between crotches if (or when) it collects there from sloshing. This may not be necessary in normal cases, but sometimes leaks can be rather large and let in a bunch of water.

 

Ciao. John

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

There are decisions which must be taken on the construction site.

I think this is a good example.

I will put the water collecting line just under the frames for and aft.

Gravity will do the rest.