Rigging Question (Probably first of many!)

[Bluto 1790]

I'll soon be starting the rigging on my scratch build. The ship is HMS Leopard and I'm building it (or, attempting to build it) from the very basic plans and drawings contained in Rif Winfield's "The Fifty Gun Ship". Drawings by John McKay.

Here is the one and only drawing of the standing rigging >>>

It doesn't provide any helpful details as to how so many of these lines are attached to masts, spars etc. etc. I've isolated just one section of the above picture to ask how the stays for the mizzen topmast  and the mizzen topgallant are attached to the main mast ??? I'm assuming these stays must be adjustable but the drawing shows nothing meaningful.

In the following pic I have highlighted these stays in red and would like to know the method of how they're fixed to the main mast in the areas of the green circles >>>

[iiihmb]

I'm a beginning builder-- - Pickle being my first completed build so for what it's worth:

On my ship those stays lead through blocks attached to the mast and cap where shown. They lead down toward the deck where a double block is seized. This is a pic from Jotika's site. Not my build. You can see how lines run to another block attached to an eye on the deck and that line is belayed to the fife rail.

[Dan Vadas]

Jim, iiihmb's pic above is pretty much how it was done on most English ships of the era.

 

  Danny

[Gregory]

An excellent resource is Rigging Period Ship Models by Lennarth Peterson

 

Here is a sample that covers your question.

 

[Ulises Victoria]

Hello Jim.

Try to find Rigging Period Ship Models by Lennarth Petersson, or the more expensive The Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War 1625-1860 by James Lees

They will provide you with specific details on how to fix those lines in your model.

 

It seems to me that since you are tackling a very advanced method of building (scratch building) it is taken for granted that you should already know those things.

 

Cheers.

 

[amateur]

There are a couple of second hand versions of Lees available via marelibri.com, under 30 euro. (Ouch, I paid consederably more than that....)

 

Jan

[Bluto 1790]

iiihmb, Danny, Gregory, Ulises Victoria and Jan ~ thank you all for your very quick replies!

 

Ulises Victoria wrote:

"Hello Jim.

Try to find Rigging Period Ship Models by Lennarth Petersson, or the more expensive The Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War 1625-1860 by James Lees

They will provide you with specific details on how to fix those lines in your model.

It seems to me that since you are tackling a very advanced method of building (scratch building) it is taken for granted that you should already know those things.

Cheers."   - - -  Actually, apart from a very crude attempt ("very crude" doesn't really describe it!) several years ago at building a ship . . . a ship that never actually existed but was made without any plans just as I imagined it might be, I've never even had a go at even the most basic kit build. This is my first foray into the world of building a model of a ship that actually existed. When I started the build over six years ago I wasn't even aware of the existence of this, or any other great resource for ship modellers, but I'm sure glad I found it coz I know all you good guys are always here to help!

Oh ~ and you're right --- after all this time I SHOULD know all these things! (But I don't!)

And this is even more embarrassing ~ I DO have a copy of Lennarth Petersson's rigging book. However, what I have found is that his book is pretty much for the rigging of a frigate and the configuration of the positions of the belaying points on this 50 gun ship are really very different. I know I'll just have to be a bit inventive and adapt and apply the principles in his book to the layout of my model . . .

 

. . . of course, that doesn't mean that I won't be coming back here with more stupid questions!

 

[Ulises Victoria]

The only stupid question is the one that is not asked.

By all means keep asking. That is how most of us learned, anyway.

When I started building ships there was nothing like the internet and much less forums like this.

Consider yourself lucky.

 

Cheers!

[Gregory]

If you will notice, the number and set-up of those stays of your 50 gun ship, appears identical to Petersson's frigate.

 

As far as belaying, taking the natural lead of the line to the closest pin, while avoiding interference with other lines, will probably not get you in trouble with any Admiral who may view your work.

 

 

[JerseyCity Frankie]

I have Lees Masting and Rigging. And although I don't have Rigging Period Ship Models, I do have another book by Peterson, Rigging Period Fore-And-Aft Craft.and I gotta say, The Petersson book is a train wreck. So much so that I wouldn't trust him for anything else. I see problems on every page of his book. To be fair, he claims he's taking ALL the rigging details for a given topic from a single individual model he selected from a museum collection (models he does not deighn to identify) so maybe the fault is with the models he selected as his subject? Still, my advice: bight the bullet and buy the Lees book. It's my opinion it should be on every sailing ship modelers bookshelf as a basic text they will refer to again and again. In sharp contrast to Peterssons book, Lees epic tome is exhaustively comprehensive on every aspect of Rigging every line has its own place in the book. Lees traces variations in configurations over time and he provides transparent background on his sources. There is no comparison between the two authors.the Lees book will become your best source for very specific Rigging information on Rigging details small and large.

[Bluto 1790]

Thanks to Ulises Victoria, Gregory and Frankie for your further comments.

 

Gregory said: "If you will notice, the number and set-up of those stays of your 50 gun ship, appears identical to Ptersson's frigate.

As far as belaying, taking the natural lead of the line to the closest pin, while avoiding interference with other lines, will probably not get you in trouble with any Admiral who may view your work."

 

I realised after I posted my previous comments that I probably gave the impression that I'm of the opinion that Petersson's book won't work for my 'Leopard'.

That's not the case and I fully realise that the book will be invaluable to me once I get properly started with all those ropes and tying knots and as Gregory said, I'll just have to be inventive with the 'closest pin.'

 

Frankie ~ I haven't seen the Peterssen book that you have but the one I have seems to be fairly reliable. I'm sure it will suffice for the amount of rigging that I intend to do. I intend (hope!) to have masts and yards (no sails) with the bare minimum of required rigging without anything becoming over-complicated.

If I end up with something like the ship below I'll be happy >>>

 

[allanyed]

Jim,

I have found Lees to be reliable and informative to the extreme.  Petersson,  not as much, and unless you are building a 36 from about 1785 rather than Leopard,  it will not have all the information you need.  Try to figure out a line size from Petersson, (he gives no information) then look at Lees.   If you need details on "how to" for many things, get David Antscherl's TFFM volume 4.  

 

As far as scratch building being for the advanced builder, I do not agree.  One of the biggest problems for many that makes scratching difficult is the lack of a bigger work space and the larger set of tools needed when compared to assembling pre-made pieces from a kit.   That in itself makes it a great thing to have kits available.  There is always the compromise where you can scratch build  part and  get some fantastic parts and materials from various sources that advertise right here at MSW. 

 

Allan

[Bluto 1790]

2 hours ago, allanyed said:

Jim,

I have found Lees to be reliable and informative to the extreme.  Petersson,  not as much, and unless you are building a 36 from about 1785 rather than Leopard,  it will not have all the information you need.  Try to figure out a line size from Petersson, (he gives no information) then look at Lees.   If you need details on "how to" for many things, get David Antscherl's TFFM volume 4.  

 

As far as scratch building being for the advanced builder, I do not agree.  One of the biggest problems for many that makes scratching difficult is the lack of a bigger work space and the larger set of tools needed when compared to assembling pre-made pieces from a kit.   That in itself makes it a great thing to have kits available.  There is always the compromise where you can scratch build  part and  get some fantastic parts and materials from various sources that advertise right here at MSW. 

 

Allan

Allan,

Just as you say (and as I already said), Peterssen's book is pretty much specific to one model. It provides, however, a fairly comprehensive guide to where all the rigging lines go - - - it's just that in many cases the 'end point', i.e. the belaying position, just isn't in the same vicinity on 'Leopard' so some inventiveness will be required. As I won't be having sails on the ship there will surely be a few vacant belaying points that can be used.

As for scratch building, it would probably be more accurate to say that it's about a 90 to 95% scratch build as there have been some items that have been 'over-the-counter' purchases, so it is a bit of a compromise. Things like all the countless deadeyes, blocks and rigging lines have been bought, and while I scratch built the carriages, I did buy the cannon barrels as I don't really have the resources to turn metal (not to mention the lack of experience in that venture!).  Apart from these items just about every other aspect and part of the build has been 'scratched'.