JosephHuntley

Black Prince 74 Gun Design Via Ed Tosti Method

43 posts in this topic

Hey guys I been trying over the last 3 months or so to figure out how to draw a nice set of ship plans. I finally got my 2 Naiad books in by Ed Tosti and the first book has a lot of info on drafting up a nice set of drawings. Most to me is hard to understand, and some easy, thus I figure once I actually start Drawing it will become clearer.

 

I chose the Black Prince because I found some nice drawings of it and also because I cant seem to find the really nice East Indiaman drawings I had and a search on the web came up with a few small drawings that were unusable. The funny thing is I found them by doing a google search and now they aren't there. Possibly the site went down or something I dunno.

 

I also have The Elements and Practice of Naval Architecture or a Treatise on Ship-building by David Steel and The Shipwrights Vade-Mecum by him also.

 

Within those 2 books I found the Scantlings and the ships bodies info for 74 gun so since I seem to have the stuff mentioned in Ed's book that I need I decided that with all the info I had I should be able to come up with a decent set of drawings.

 

 

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So I have plenty of drawings so the next step will be to put the ships dimensions from Steels book and put it into an excel Spreadsheet as Ed suggests

 

So that is what I will be doing tonight is getting my Data Inputted

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Well I finished adjusting the Spreadsheet gave as an example and inputted all the proper dimensions for a 74 gun ship and uploaded it  here Http://www.proflooney.net/Black-Prince-Dimensions.rar

 

I also decided to do this ship as I did not want to use the Naiad for this due to all the hard work Ed has put into his plans and such. This way I can have me a set of plans for a nice 74 gun ship and also share my design experiences with others and not infringe on his rights.

 

I was going to create an excel file of the scantlings but think I will wait and do that on the side when I am tired of drawing and take breaks from it. when finished I hope to have a nice scantlings spreadsheet but I think I will begin looking at it and decide that it is a lot of work and just use the book lol.

 

so tomorrow I will have to find the dimensions between the perpendiculars and the dimensions for the keel and such so I can start laying out an accurate Sheer Plan

 

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Thanks Pat I just hope I can understand where to find accurate numbers from as I am sure these drawings I have are probably pretty far off for taking measurements from, however they will provide framing stuff etc.

 

Plus I would like to add that if any of you experienced guys see me make a mistake somewhere please point it out as a lot of the terminology for where I am getting a measurement from or where I am measuring to is baffling me and I will be just guessing that I got it from or to the correct place.

 

 

Anyways Good morning all so the first bit of business was to find something useful in the Scantlings to get started with laying out my Sheer Plan.

 

It is always nice that the first start of a project comes out easy and the start of the Scantling shows the length of the gun-deck at 176 feet So I guess I have the length between the perpendiculars right off the bat so I know how large to scale my drawings.

 

It is also the first thing on the list of things to do according to Ed.

 

" The first basic lines to be drawn are the top of the keel (TOK), the fore and aft perpendiculars (FP, AP) and the perpendicular of the dead flat (f). "

 

so that is where I will begin once I put my lines plan into Solidworks and enlarge it to the proper scale so I can take some measurements from it.

 

 

 

 

BP-01.png

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Ok so first thing I have is the Main perpendiculars set, top of Keel, and my background image set

 

 

BP-02.png

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So looking at the dimensions spreadsheet I made the Dead Flat should be 66 feet from the front Perpendicular

 

 

BP-03.png

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I believe the LBP is 176' 1" (Google it, the info there is taken from reliable sources, the figure on the plans is the one I would like to use but the image is too degraded).  Also, you will find the plans to be accurate.  For example: Steel sets the keel as 18", the plan shows 19".  Steel gives general figures, an actual plan normally trumps Steel.  A contract is even better.  Black Prince was ordered under Rule and Peake who have signed the sheer plan.  She was laid down in 1814 after Tucker and Seppings became the Surveyors.  The subsequent drawings all reflect the work and practice of Seppings.  These drawings show some interesting features such as the latticed diagonal riders and deck framing and planking on the bias.  Be careful of the body plan since it is a few degrees off from the profile plan.  Here, again, Steel has the moulded breadth as 48' with the extreme breadth of 48' 8".  I measured the plan for a moulded breadth of 47" to which the added width of planking gives 47' 8" for the extreme breadth of Black Prince.  The figure given from the sources is also 47' 8" so I think my measurements of the plan are accurate.  This is a case where the plan has to trump Steel. 

 

I would double check the LBP as it is the first dimension and much depends on it.

 

Wayne

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So I used the 66'-0" to the Dead Flat but it doesn't seem to be correct for some reason and doesn't match the drawings for sure.

 

Of course I can also be mis-interpreting Dead Flat as the Mid station.

 

So  here I need to figure out whats wrong:

 

Distance of the FP and AP is set according to the figures Properly.

 

The FP and AP on the drawing is set to match those figures so that when I draw my lines in they will probably be off some but they should be somewhat close and not way off as the plan is scaled to the figures.

 

My Math converting the feet given is correct

 

Length of Gundeck or lower deck = 176 feet - 0 inches  x 12 =  2112 inches

DF from FP  = 66 feet - 0 inches  x 12 = 796 inches

 

 

 

 

BP-04.png

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19 minutes ago, wrkempson said:

I believe the LBP is 176' 1" (Google it, the info there is taken from reliable sources, the figure on the plans is the one I would like to use but the image is too degraded).  Also, you will find the plans to be accurate.  For example: Steel sets the keel as 18", the plan shows 19".  Steel gives general figures, an actual plan normally trumps Steel.  A contract is even better.  Black Prince was ordered under Rule and Peake who have signed the sheer plan.  She was laid down in 1814 after Tucker and Seppings became the Surveyors.  The subsequent drawings all reflect the work and practice of Seppings.  These drawings show some interesting features such as the latticed diagonal riders and deck framing and planking on the bias.  Be careful of the body plan since it is a few degrees off from the profile plan.  Here, again, Steel has the moulded breadth as 48' with the extreme breadth of 48' 8".  I measured the plan for a moulded breadth of 47" to which the added width of planking gives 47' 8" for the extreme breadth of Black Prince.  The figure given from the sources is also 47' 8" so I think my measurements of the plan are accurate.  This is a case where the plan has to trump Steel. 

 

I would double check the LBP as it is the first dimension and much depends on it.

 

Wayne

What is LBP and I must have posted at same time as you as I just addressed some issues found lol

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Ok wayne I just looked at my drawings enlarged and yes the numbers are degraded but if you look it can almost be clearly read as 176' - 0"

 

 

BP-05.png

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Steel's tables for forming the body lines will not help you for Black Prince.  They are of a general nature and do not apply to any particular ship per se.   You could create your own tables by taking measurements off the body plan.

 

Good show on the length.  I see the moulded breadth is 46' 10" .  Use that, not Steel's 48'.

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the number under that length cant make out the first number but the inches is clearly 9 7/8"

 

the breadth looks also to say 47' - 6"

then the number below 46' - 10

 

depth of hold is either 21' - 0" or 24' - 0"

 

So it seems to match what steels book says.

 

would be nice to have the contract for it but I cant seem to find it online.

 

also when you are mentioning those dimensions for the Keel is that height or width?

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Yes I can just use the drawings I was just trying to follow with Eds instructions for doing a ship. I dont have to do the Black Prince directly only a ship built like it however the dead flat measurement still doesnt match so I will probably have to use the lines from the sheer plan as a guide

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So I decided to mark the DF on the drawings (Solid Line) and all the stations marked.

 

What I am not sure of is behind the DF are 2 lines close together and I can see an O with horizontal line in the middle of it. does this represent the Center of Gravity (COG) for the ship?

 

next I will do a measurement and then space all stations out so they are equal

 

 

BP-06.png

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So I took 9 stations and the dimensions between them and totaled them then divided by 9 and came up with a spacing of 66.577 inches.

 

as you can see below when I adjusted them in the front everything lined up with my drawing sheet only off a couple thousandths here and there. so that tells me the sheer plan doesnt seem to be too distorted

 

 

BP-07.png

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LBP is the Length Between Perpendiculars.  The double line is the dead flat frame.  It is often drawn as a double line, but not always.  The circle with crosshairs is the typical label.  The keel is square at the midship.  It helps to read Goodwin on the construction of these ships, reading the relevant sections prior to doing the drawing.

 

I can't see that any of the numbers you mention in post #16 match Steel.  

 

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Wayne something else to look at was the Knees. the top deck (poop) had wooden knees then the second and third down where most of the guns were were Iron then the lower deck (Orlop) went back to wooden Knees so that is part of the reason I like this ship it has so many different kinds of features on it. I found that Wikipedia page you were looking at that said 176 ft 1" but it is wrong as shown on the plans above. a more accurate page would be the one on the Black Prince class of ships Wikipedia where the dimensions seem to pretty much match what is on the plans though haven't checked them all yet just going off top my head  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Prince-class_ship_of_the_line

 

 

am getting lunch then will hit Ed's book and see what is next on the drawing agenda

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So back from Lunch. well the next part says
 

"First Determine the room and space, the distance between frame lines,from the drafts by measuring the distance between vertical stations on the drawing at some point along the hull, not from the AP, FP, or DF, since these distances usually differed from the ships room and space."

 

then says

"It is best to take a measurement across a large number of evenly spaced lines on the draft then divide to get this important dimension, which was often expressed down to 1/8" "

 

ok so I understand the stations shown are covering 2 stations thus a normal station would be half of that.

 

However what I don't understand is what do I divide by?

 

The number of stations total I measured?

 

which doesn't make sense because I already know that dimension from what is on the plans.

 

Also looking at the framing plan I do not see any gaps for airflow in the drawing. did some ships not have gaps?

 

 

BP-08.png

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so going through Steels Scantlings it shows the room and space at 2 feet 9 inches.

I still am not sure what that  number represents or how it is used.

I thought room and space was the distance from station to station divided by 3 which gives the width of the station timber  and allows for a timber width of airspace between.

for now I will do some more research on it as supposedly this is an important measurement to come up with other measures from.

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This afternoon I did some checking on the accuracy of the sheer plan drawings as per looking for distorion.  enlarged to full size most lines are between 1/2" - 1" deviation

 

That said I think I will use the sheer plan as drawn for the most part and just correct lines that are off.

 

when I did the decks and checked them they were between 1/8" and 1/4" off from the lines shown. As per reading from Ed's book they should be a continuous arc and that is how I drew them. the lower 2 decks where parallel to the keel but the top deck and quarter decks have a slight downward angle to them from the stern to the bow.

 

the next thing I need to do is to look up and then verify the heights and widths of the gun ports, the height and width of the keel, distance of top of keel to the keelson, height of the keelson, thickness of the deck planks, height and width for the false keel.

 

that should allow me to verify the validity of what is shown on the drawings and let me finish up the basic sheer plan.

 

what I am not sure of is what are the two dashed lines I have marked they go to the perpendiculars and then curve down

BP-09.png

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Most of your questions are answered in Goodwin.  Those dashed lines are the upper and lower height of breadth lines.

 

As for the length of the LBP, your plan is the general plan for the class.  The numbers on it may or may not reflect the Black Prince as built.  In that the Black Prince was built some 6 years after the general plan, there may well have been a variance.

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Renowned author Harold Underhill made a commercial set of plans available of a 74 he called "Black Prince/Cornwallis", or a "74-gun ship c. 1813", which appear to be of this very same ship. They are in 3/16th inch scale, and although rather old (1970s?), they hold up very well. They are for building a solid hull model in large scale, but all the gun decks's details are shown, as well as carvings, rigging, etc. He doesn't into the hull framing though.

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thanks guys.

 

Wayne you mentioned Goodwin a couple times but what is the name of the book I should be looking for?

 

also yes it is general arrangement for the class and there were 6 Black Princes built

 

 

1650 small 10 gun vessel

1774 Black Prince (32 guns) later renamed Alfred approx 8 Nov 1775

1816 Black Prince 74 gun ship

1861 Black Prince 36 gun ship (warrior class Battleship)

1904 Black Prince Duke of Edinburgh class Cruiser

1942 Black Prince was a Dido class Cruiser

 

hehe oh and don't forget the British Black Prince Tank

 

so there were a few of them and it is cool the Alfred was originally named Black Prince.

 

Anyways I am not doing per se as I said earlier and exact model of the black Prince but using the drawings etc to do a general  Black Prince class ship.

Unless I have a ton of reference like with aircraft I never like to do a particular ship as if I have to do to much guesswork you will always get someone that may be more familiar with the ship finding errors. Instead I like to do a general class of the ship which gives me a lot of leeway.

 

My only goal here is to learn Ed's method of drawing up a ship to draw a ship and i had a lot of drawings for this to go off of. He used Steels book for a lot of reference and since it does have a lot of info be it exactly correct for this particular  ship name doesn't really matter to me. where dimensions etc are listed on the plan sheets or where I can find them I will use them otherwise with my knowledge I am forced to use the book. However like said earlier with the DF the dimension was way off and I cannot figure out why.

 

Even on a generic ship given he posted the length the same as this ship his dimension for the DF should have been really close to correct spot and it wasn't.

 

so once I know the Goodwin book you speak of I can look things up otherwise I have so many different books saying different things I just have to choose something and go with it.

 

 

 

 

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Joseph, the book is:  The Construction and Fitting of the English Man of War 1650-1850, by Peter Goodwin.  

 

cheers

 

Pat

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Yes I had it thanks has lot of info in it.

 

Ok so I got 2 things done tonight before I head to bed.

 

First thing i got is the wales and rails curves all figured out and drawn in Just have to do like with the flooring come up with the thickness of the rail wood

 

Then the second I did was figured out the gunport sizes and got the curves drawn for the gunports. tomorrow night I will get the widths drawn in which came to like 3 ft 5 inches width and then will be 7 feet 6 inches apart

 

 

BP-10.png

BP-11.png

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