HMS Fly by Johnnyreg - Amati/Victory Models - Scale 1:64

[Landlubber Mike]

The ply was really crumbly for me too.  At least the deck ply will be covered - I believe that some of the thin laser cut sheets are made of similar crap 👎. Not a big deal as I’m scratching those parts, but just forewarning that these are delicate and you might need paint and filler.

[Johnnyreg]

Hi Mike

 

Ive just checked the parts list and these are all the parts listed as 1mm ply. The gun port hull strips look and feel slightly different so I'm hoping they're stronger.

[Landlubber Mike]

Aren’t there parts that are 1.5 and 2mm ply?  My Caldercraft Badger kit had similar ply that chipped if you looked at it.

[Johnnyreg]

Hi Mike

40 minutes ago, Landlubber Mike said:

Aren’t there parts that are 1.5 and 2mm ply?  My Caldercraft Badger kit had similar ply that chipped if you looked at it.

 

For completeness, here are the other laser cut sheets which, quality wise, seem ok.

[Johnnyreg]

Thanks SpyGlass. Here are some close up pics showing both sides of the 1.5 walnut ply sheets. I've got everything crossed here hoping it's not the bad stuff.

 

 

[Johnnyreg]

Great news SpyGlass and thank you for confirming. Just spotted the pics and see what you mean about the matchstick look.

Edited January 28, 2018 by Johnnyreg

[Johnnyreg]

I’ve now got my new Dremel so there’s no excuse for me to linger any longer. I started by roughly fairing bulkheads 1, 2 & 3

 

Here’s the same view but with the infill pieces 15, 17 & 18, which I will fair back and glue once the bulkheads have been glued. As others have done, I will insert balsa blocks between these 3 bulkheads, and also the 3 at the stern, to give more gluing area around the bends and also to maintain hull shape better.

I’ve also drawn the rabbet line, which is for the second planking only.

For the first planking, I will taper the edges and ends of the planks where they meet the keel face as they won’t be seen anyway (thanks for the suggestion SpyGlass)

 

I will cut the rabbet groove as shown above and extend it sternwards as far as the pencil mark shown (near bulkhead 9). The stern area of the keel will only be faired down to 3mm after the 1^st planking is complete and then blended into the rabbet cut-out. Notice I haven’t rough faired the stern bulkheads as I don’t want to get the angle wrong as some others have. I will have more idea once I get to dry fitting the dreaded gun strip and the stern counter bits. I’m also leaving the thinning of the walnut prow tongue (above) until after first planking.

 

I’ve dry fitted the gun deck to get a feel for it and it fits quite well. I also noticed it keys the bulkheads in better than with just the 5mm mdf deck (not as much wobbling) so I will probably dry fit the gun deck during the gluing of the bulkheads step

 

 

Notice the deck curvature.

 

That’s where I am for now. I may go quiet for a while as these have just landed. There big heavy books but really good quality. Only took a week to arrive in the UK which is good. I only wish there was a Kindle/pdf version so I could take them everywhere with me.

 

This half of our kitchen table is my workshop by the way, as long as I’m not creating sawdust. Sometimes it’s more than half but the Admiral kindly lets me know when that happens.

 

Edited January 31, 2018 by Johnnyreg

[Oliver24]

Wow! Very nice progress. I love books also. So much better than reading from a computer...  I heard about David Antscherl and my understanding is that he is an excellent ship modeler. I bought Frank Mastini`s book "Ship modelling simplified" and I am also thinking about buying Donald Dressel`s "Planking techniques for model ship builders and Milton Roth`s "Ship modelling from stem to stearn".  I will check out Antscherl`s book also...

 

 

[popeye the sailor]

the deck camber is normal....no cause for concern.  is that one of the faulty decks?   can't believe this kit is bad......it looks like a nice kit.   look'in good so far.

[Johnnyreg]

Hi Oliver

 

Thanks for dropping by. I also have Ship Modelling Simplified and It's an excellent book. These 2 books are not cheap, especially if you live in the UK. They were $70 EACH plus $30 EACH to ship to the UK as Seawatch didn't combine shipping costs. I've only had chance to have a quick browse through them but they are all about scratch building a Sloop type ship in the same way the original ships were built in the 1700s. There is hell of a lot of detailed information in them. I will have a look at the other 2 books you mentioned. Thank you.

[Johnnyreg]

4 minutes ago, popeye the sailor said:

the deck camber is normal....no cause for concern.  is that one of the faulty decks?   can't believe this kit is bad......it looks like a nice kit.   look'in good so far.

Thanks Denis. Yes I knew the camber was normal I just thought I would show others what it should look like. No the deck isn't faulty and SpyGlass has confirmed it's not the rubbish stuff. I very pleased with the quality so far.

[popeye the sailor]

well that's a good thing to hear    

[Johnnyreg]

Thanks SpyGlass. All good advice. Some of it I've read in yours and other builds and plan to do. I think I will revisit the fairing (pre gluing the BHs) using a heavy stock strip as you suggest. I've seen your Peg picture and see what you mean.

 

Regarding the walnut prow, I stand corrected (rabbet not thin) when I said thin I didn't mean fair but I meant thin equally leaving a sharp defined rabbet edge for the 2nd planking, if that makes sense. Either way it won't be glued in until 1st planking is complete and sanded as I don't want to damage it.

 

I've not forgotten your previous good advice about sorting the pedestal mounting out before pre gluing the BHs. I was thinking of drilling for 3mm studding/screw and using the captive nut method that you and others have used. I noticed you used #5 gauge screws which is about 3mm. I've been looking at the Amati brass & wood pedestals but can't decide but that's a long way off.

 

Will also check the mast holes. In fact before I do any work I will alway dry fit other affected parts and try to think "many moves" ahead, a bit like chess I suppose.

 

Thanks Jefta for following and welcome aboard. Appreciate all the likes also so thank you.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Johnnyreg

[Johnnyreg]

32 minutes ago, SpyGlass said:

Sorry to twiddle on and on  ( I should be doing my Pickle)-

but what i have found really sensible to get right before glueing them -( but can be done after gluing the bulk heads) is the sets   parts 15 - 18 or thereabouts  called " plank temination patterns" 

I  put these in position and drill a "dowel" hole straight through both sides and the keel and use the same small drill bit as a removeable dowel. That allows you to pop off the bits to work on and replace precisely.  I found they need quite a lot of fiddly work in three dimensions -  , but getting those right  gets the plankng flow much easier. Pic  just under the forrad BH pic on my log

Don't apologise it's all good advice. Thank you

[Johnnyreg]

Yes the laser char does it for me and the doweling is a good idea. The pictures say it all. Thank you SpyGlass.

[Johnnyreg]

Just a tiny bit of progress…

Before I start, nothing is glued except my nuts (all will become clear later ).

 

I mentioned last time that my workshop is half the kitchen table, as long as I’m not creating sawdust (which is one of the Admiral’s rules). Anyway I now need to create sawdust so I had to go outside. Outside!!... well the reason I had to go outside is our only spare room is the computer room and our garage is full of junk, sorry I mean really useful stuff that we are bound to need some day .

 

So here we are outside in the garden with my quickly assembled mobile workshop.

 

Like others, I am drilling for the captive nuts, which will be used for screwing to a display stand through 2 pedestals. The drill press is my new Dremel power tool and new Dremel workstand/drill press. The angle plate is one I made during my apprenticeship nearly 50 years ago and is hardened, ground and cock-on square, inside, outside and edgewise. A bit overkill for this task... but why not. The drill is 3.2mm for 3mm studding

 

Notice the spots of rain… Grrrrr

 

That was lucky it hit the hole.

 

Both filed out and ready for the nuts to be glued

 

 

I then went inside (other workshop) and decided to pin the keel strips and rudder post before cutting the rabbet to help re-location after completion of the 1st planking. I used 1mm brass wire which is all I had and, although a bit small, it should do the job.

 

 

 

 

 

The nuts were then glued in with 5 min epoxy. The screw thread was dipped in Vaseline and turned every few minutes to keep it from being glued as well. I will glue some scrap plywood either side to fully captivate the nuts later.

 

I was going to cut the rabbet but it’s getting dark… Grrrrr and the mobile workshop will have to be dismantled and put away… Grrrr

Seriously though, I need to sort myself out a workshop space in the Garage so tomorrow some of the “useful stuff” is definitely going… watch this space…

 

[Landlubber Mike]

I agree with SpyGlass - the nuts are mounted really high up the keel.  You have to factor in the pedestal height, as well as the height of the baseboard or the base of your display case.

[Johnnyreg]

Thanks SpyGlass and Mike. I was going to remove the screws until needed so I didn't catch on them but I like your idea of a temporary shorter one with saw cut.

 

I have some 3mm studding on order so I will cut to length when I know what pedestals and board I'm using. I'm getting 2 metres which should be enough for this one and all my future builds .

,

I may make my own wooden pedestals and base but do any of you guys know a good, preferably UK, supplier of ready made ones. I've looked at the Amati ones, are these ok? I reckon about 400mm long would look ok for this one, what do you think?

Edited February 5, 2018 by Johnnyreg

[Landlubber Mike]

I had the same issue with one of my hulls - thankfully I was able to find a machine screw in a much longer length so I think I'm ok.  Otherwise, the threaded rod should work too, or even a rod without threads I would imagine.

 

For pedestals, I bought a bunch from Model Expo a while back.  They are brass and come in different heights which help when dealing with hulls where one end of the keel is lower than the other side.  Haven't used Amati.  Given your location, have you looked at Cornwall Model Boats?  They sell lots of fittings across a number of manufacturers.  

[Johnnyreg]

Just had a look on Cornwall MB site and found a few more. Thanks Mike.

[Johnnyreg]

I've done a bit more but no photos yet. I've cut the rabbet and glued the Bulkheads and lower mdf deck to the keel.

 

I'm now thinking ahead about the decking... I checked the FFM vol 1 (revised) book, and there is a 1:48 drawings on pages 268 showing a centre plank and 14 planks each side (at midship) then the waterway. These 14 planks measure 69mm so therefore converted to full size gives me 69 / 14 x 48 = 236.5mm ( 9.3" ) sized planks so reduced to 1:64 = 236.5 / 64 = 3.7mm. The supplied decking is 3mm wide so is way out of scale (7.55"). I haven't bought the plans and cd that they mention (£175 ) in the FFM books so cannot confirm the sizes I have come up with. I have ordered some 3.4 & 4.5mm boxwood, mainly to compare quality with the supplied 3mm Tanganyika and to see why everyone on here rates it highly. I'm thinking the 3.4 would be closer to scale??  I would appreciate your thoughts on my figures and choice of material?

 

Just realised I was looking at the drawing of the lower deck which is mostly hidden.

Now looking at gun deck on page 76 vol 2 (revised) and found centre plank and 11 varying sized planks to waterway. Applying the same calculations as above the planks average 69 / 11 x 48 = 301 (11.85") so reduced to 1:64 would give 301 / 64 = 4.7mm so 4.5mm would be closer to scale. 

Edited February 13, 2018 by Johnnyreg

[Johnnyreg]

Good picture SpyGlass

 

Interesting. Looks like your shoe width size wise so yes I agree that ships planking looks equivalent scale to supplied strip. Will do some samples with supplied 3mm strip and the ordered boxwood when I get it, and see what looks best. 

 

Forgot to to say thanks for following and keeping an eye on me.

[Johnnyreg]

…Now sorted a space in the garage so things are looking up but still too cold in there.

Last time I mentioned I had cut the rabbet so here is a picture. Note also the ply pieces for captivating the mounting nuts and the temporary M3 studding with saw cut (thanks SpyGlass)

 

 

I’ve been quiet for a while but I have been busy doing a lot of plank testing over the last few weeks for the decking.

The tests I did:
Material - supplied Tanganyika (0.5 x 3mm) vs Boxwood (0.6 x 3.4mm)
Caulking - pencil vs permanent marker vs 0.05mm (0.002”) gap
Treenails - None vs drilled (with pencil) vs drilled (with Hobbylite filler)
Treenail size - 0.3mm (3\4”) vs 0.35mm (7/8”) vs 0.4mm (1”)
Finish - Scraping vs sanding vs synthetic wire wool
Varnish - Polyurethane vs Acrylic

 

Here are just a few of the samples

 

 

It took me ages to decide on which one to go for. Here is my final choice and reasoning:

Material - Although I like the look of the Tanganyika , I’ve decided on the boxwood as its harder and easier to cut cleanly without splintering, which maybe important if I try a bit of scarfing. Also the boxwood stock I have has nice smooth edges and give better caulking lines.

 

Caulking - The marker pen was too black and bled into the end cuts. I know I could seal the ends 1st but didn’t fancy the extra work. The 0.5mm gap looked the best but trying to maintain a uniform gap between every single joint would be too much. So I’m going for the 2B pencil on both side of each join.

 

Treenails - I’ve decided not to do any on this build as none of my attempts on the samples were consistent enough so therefore I wasn’t happy with the results. I will probably do treenails on a future model but I need to play around with using actual treenails and different fillers.

 

Varnish/Finish - The boxwood I have is pretty consistent thickness wise so I may not need to scrape or sand. I don’t know if anyone else has had this issue but the Acrylic varnish seemed to make the pencil dust bleed into the wood grain (below right) so I’ve opted for the matt polyurethane varnish (Nelsons) which does actually give more of a satin finish so I will follow with a light rub down with very fine synthetic wire wool to remove the shine (below left).

 

 

Decision made.

 

I have also added the infill pieces and additionally added balsa between the fore and aft bulkheads as others have done.

 

Pinned and roughed out

 

 

 

Glued in together with additional balsa

 

Now needs sanding but didn’t fancy going into the cold garage so looked for something else to do and decided to do the capstans.

Instructions say use 8mm dowel but 10mm should be used to match the laser cut parts. I’ve deviated slightly from the instructions and referred to the FFM books which show the lower Capstan with 5 whelps and the upper capstan with 6. Not sure if this is correct for the Fly but decided to go with it. The whelps seemed too thin and out of scale so I thickened them up a bit with some strip (didn’t fancy making from scratch)

 

 

Next I marked the whelp positions on the dowel.
That maths lesson did come in handy after all  - PI x 10 / 5 for the lower one.

 

 

 

 

Added 2 sets of cross pieces (in TFFM book but not in instructions). Top ones are convex and bottom one should be concave but I settled for straight.

 

 

The FFM book show an inset metal ring on the top but my attempt using card wasn’t good enough so I decided to remove them.

 

With

 

After removal and repaint

 

 

I intend to add the capstan partners and pawls after planking as shown in the FFM books and yes I have checked the beam height for the lower capstan and we’re ok for clearance.

Next job is the bulkhead fairing and planking the small area that is visible from above through the fore hatch (with ladder)

 

[popeye the sailor]

sometimes sanding will blend the pencil.   I used to use crayon......depending on the wood,  sometimes it doesn't look half bad.   I got turn on to the archive pen and haven't looked back.     the capstans look great.....awesome work on 'em.   good luck with the planking......the combinations you have there look really good,  especially with the tree nails   

[Kevin]

Sorry i am late to the party, can I pull a seat up and watch, I will provide the popcorn

[Johnnyreg]

Thanks Denis, SpyGlass & Kevin.

 

Denis, thanks for the kind words. I will look into the archive pens they sound promising. I will hold off till I have tried them. I can imagine the sanding spreading the lead dust about. I didn't sand but used a fine Scotch-Brite hand abrasive pad but I can see that and/or scraping would cause the same problem. Maybe if I do end up using pencil then maybe varnish 1st to seal in the lead dust and then the scraping/abrasive treatment.

 

SpyGlass, definitely not the steel wire wool. Regarding treenails, the FFM books say that planks of 8" (3.18mm @ 1:64) or less have a single treenail at the butt join so with this fact and with them not supposed to be visible anyway I won't bother with them this time.

i didn't mention I tried various size hyperdermic needles but I couldn't get the consistency.

As you and others say, it's a personal thing.

 

Hi Kevin, thanks for following and welcome aboard. You're not late to the party as you can see by my progress. Just to let you know I like my popcorn with caramel not the salty stuff and a beer or merlot to wash it down  

 

Edited February 26, 2018 by Johnnyreg

[popeye the sailor]

scraping after sealing is not a good idea.....more of a chance to mar the wood.......then a second coat will make it look lumpy.   I haven't scraped too many times,  but I scrape it into a pile,  and them 'dump' it......blow the rest off with air.   I do like the effect of sanding......it will blend it in to some degree,  and the added hue does look good when sealed over.  the archive pen doesn't leave much of the hue,  so it's not as noticeable.   if your going to stain the deck,  go back over it with the stain cloth after sanding or scraping,  it will revive the color.   steel wool should only be used after the first sealing,  and even then wait at least a day before you do it.

[Johnnyreg]

Thanks Denis & SpyGlass.

 

Good advice from both of you and duly noted thank you. 

 

Now done the bulkhead fairing, which I was dreading but it wasn't too bad once I got my head round it and made a start.

When my archival pens arrive I will do one more planking test, archival pen vs pencil and hone my finishing technique, pictures next time.

[Johnnyreg]

Thanks SpyGlass. I've checked the Bulkheads with a strip and the only problem I can see is on BH7 which I think is the correct width but appears to be 1mm off centre i.e. 1mm gap on Port side and 1mm proud on Starboard which I will have to correct. You said you thought it was BH11 but this area seems ok. If you can remember the specific BH I will double check. 

 

Still waiting for my Archival pens which were due Wednesday but they couldn't deliver from 17 miles away due to "Bad weather or natural disaster" according to tracking info. Don't laugh but we've had 6" of snow over the last few days and the UK has come to a standstill 

 

Done the deck planking that can be seen through the forward hatch. Getting late now so will post pictures tomorrow.

 

I've been thinking ahead to the coamings and gratings. I'm going to build them prior to decking as I want to plank up to the coamings as some have done. I was going to glue the grating pieces with 50/50 diluted pva and sand a camber athwartship together with the coamings frame to match the deck curvature. Once that has been done I will remove the grating pieces from the coamings and paint/varnish separately. My question is, has anyone brush varnished/lacquered the grating successfully or would you spray? I was thinking I could dip into dilute polyurethane varnish and then quickly brush the top to remove excess. I welcome any suggestions.

 

[Johnnyreg]

Thanks for that SpyGlass.

 

The grating looks good I will try that method. I will watch out for the aft curvature when I come to the gun port strips. Thanks for the pictures I will refer back to them when I'm at that point.