HMS Fly by Johnnyreg - Amati/Victory Models - Scale 1:64

[Johnnyreg]

Hi Chook. Thanks for following and welcome aboard

[Johnnyreg]

Here are the pictures I mentioned of the small amount of progress done.

 

Bulkhead and filler pieces fairing - Bow

 

Stern

 

 

Next I planked the small area view-able down through the gun deck. My archival pens hadn’t arrived yet so I hadn’t had chance to do the caulking comparisons with pencil so decided to press ahead using 2B pencil, for this small area anyway. 1st I made a simple plank cutting jig (for 90mm length) and a simple razor blade cutter

 

 

I decided on a 3 butt shift pattern, which I’ll probably use throughout (I have a question about this later)

 

 

I wanted a means to dispense small amounts of pva glue to prevent any surplus being squeezed up through the joins. For the limited amount of planking I had done in the past, I had always used a pin to put small blobs spaced out along the length but I now need something more efficient so went for a blunt needle syringe.

 

 

Started off gluing the back of the plank but switched to doing it this way because I dropped a few glued planks which requiring a clean-up.

 

 

When I was done, I left for a few hours and then scraped it (Denis styley ) and then gave it a diluted varnish (70% polyurethane/30% White spirit) coat.  I diluted it because I’m struggling to get a good, none ripple finish with neat varnish (Nelson) so may use several thin coats instead. I feel a long heavy YouTube session coming on

 

Scraped

 

Diluted 1st coat of Varnish

 

What the hell - I tried a 2nd 100% neat coat the next day (mostly hidden so no worries)

It doesn’t look too bad to me but I’m no expert

 

 

Look what’s arrived!!  The Postman (my hero) has battled through the snow to get these to me .

 

 

So I did a comparison to the pencil caulking on the boxwood I’m using.

Both samples were scraped, varnished and grey Scotch-brited the next day.

 

Better photo

 

If you look close at the one on the right, there is still a bit of bleeding on the butt join.

To be fair the pencil has also bled slightly, probably at the varnishing stage because there was no sign after scraping, but it’s not so noticeable because the pencil is more of a subtle shade.

 

The jury is still out but I’m swaying toward the pencil for this build. Maybe a different wood may not bleed as much.

My brain hurts now and it’s nearly curry time so that’s all for now.

 

The butt shift question: Is it standard practice to mirror the shift pattern either side of the centre? E.g. assuming the central planks won’t have a shift pattern because of the deck furniture, 4,3,2,1,4,3,2,1 - (Central planks) - 1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4

 

 

 

Edited March 3, 2018 by Johnnyreg

[Johnnyreg]

Thanks SpyGlass for your good words and clarifying the shift pattern. 

 

I'm using Lord Nelson "Matt" varnish which does have a sheen to it hence my finishing with Scotch-brite.

Not sure if this is a good varnish or not as not used many but my local hobby shop recommended it.

 

If you see my earlier caulking tests I did try a gap instead but only 0.05mm (0.002") which looked quite good but the idea of maintaining an equal gap between every join seemed a bit daunting to me. I think you used a bigger 0.005" gap if I remember. 

 

3 hours ago, SpyGlass said:

...but I note you have not tapered your keel section stern end to width yet 3mm is good

I was going to finish my 1st planking half way to stern and then feather and taper to 3mm for 2nd planking. I'm sure I read that in someone's log. You've got me thinking now so I will revisit once I get to that stage. It will be easier for me to get my head round once I get several planks offered up to it.

 

I think my next steps now are:

* Shaping and dry fitting the gun strips and trimming the gun deck edges, which are a bit oversize, to suit.

* Look at the canons, consider replacement barrels, check the gun port heights and compare the supplied carriages to the Fly upgrade ones (which I have)

* Building the gun deck furniture and dry fitting so that I can work out the gun deck planking pattern

* Plank the gun deck, except for the areas near the break off bulwark bits

* ...

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 3, 2018 by Johnnyreg

[Johnnyreg]

Thanks SpyGlass.

 

Lots of good info there thank you and duly noted.

 

Yes I think it was your log I got the keel thinning info from. 

 

Varnish - I think I will stick to thinned coats from now on based on my limited experience and findings plus of course your good advice.

 

Thinking about your caulking method of using 0.004" shim... if for instance your planks were 3mm, forcing the shim in after gluing is actually compressing the plank edges only and not affecting the pitch of your planks which remain at 3mm... is this correct?

 

may have to do more tests and try this. Just when I think I've decided someone throws me a curve ball to make me rethink . Not complaining though so don't stop throwing them curve balls.

 

 

[Johnnyreg]

I understand now what you mean. The pictures say it all thanks for explaining.

I suppose your method is straight forward enough for straight planking but would get more tricky for fancy stuff like this if you wanted to maintain the caulking effect gap between every joint.

 

 

Also if you wanted to lay down a specific plan on paper first you would have to allow for an accumulation of gaps over the width of the deck which would be easy enough too. 

 

I will do a test run though to see if the resulting caulking effect is a big enough improvement to warrant the extra work.

[Johnnyreg]

Yet more playing around with planking following SpyGlass’s curveball 

 

Just for comparison here is a better picture of a previous test I did way back on my planking quest.

 

 

I’ve since decided on boxwood but the 0.05mm gap with no pencil beat all other methods I tried back then but I dismissed it because it meant extra work for a moderate improvement.

Anyway, following on from SpyGlass’s last post, I tried the boxwood I going to use but this time with the bigger gap of 0.1mm (0.004”) gap, that SpyGlass uses, and here is the result.

 

 

…and Compared to my lower deck area (sorry couldn’t get them both in focus)

 

 

 

I must admit it looks really good (method, not skill) and I don’t think I could improve on this for neatness and it was fairly easy to do. I have plenty of shim as I used to use it a lot in my toolmaking days.

I may go this route but I have one more thing to try… <tease> but I’ll tell you what it is after I’ve done it </tease>

I’ve been busy on other stuff too. My previous plank cutting jig was made out of wood and was always intended to be temporary so I’ve made a proper one out of 2mm brass bar

 

 

The cutting slit is square, this time , and should not wear. I made the main guides on the tight side which has the added benefit of demurring the strip edges which I think shows here

 

 

 

I can now see why others here like boxwood it’s lovely to work with.

I have to say, this site and you lot are “brilliant”.

Thanks to all that have taken the time to comment and help me along my way, and thanks for all the likes too.

 

 

1 hour ago, SpyGlass said:

I seem to remember there was at least one Fly/Peggy build with some nice fancier planker - maybe BE ??

I'm sure BE's planking is nice and fancy but I think you might mean LandLubber Mike's Peggy here which follows the FFM book pattern. Not sure what wood he used off hand. It is beautiful though.

 

 

Edited March 4, 2018 by Johnnyreg

[popeye the sailor]

I think you did a great job with the lower planking.   you comparison with it though won't look the same,  as the lower planking gaps may be filled in with varnish.  it still looks good.   I don't use a varnish...I find the finish too soft.  I use a lacquer......I use a semi gloss for my decks.  it seeps into the wood......two coats will give a good finish,  and the sheen will disappear as it cures {there isn't much of a sheen anyway}.   your doing some nice work here   

[Johnnyreg]

Thanks Denis for the good words

 

I was thinking about the gaps filling with varnish too and for it to look good they would have to be all full of varnish or all not full of varnish. I have shown the sample with just one thin coat which looks good but I think another coat would be required. Never used lacquer and only limited experience with varnish. I have some brush on Testors Dullcote on order so will try it. I may as well as I've tried everything else  Do you brush or spray?

 

Ive done a few more caulking tests but discounted them but will show photos next time anyway.

 

A bit more progress.

I've glued the gun deck on and made the Capstan partner.

i was intending to form the Gun strips but realised I needed the gun deck in place and at least one gun carriage built to check for position in the gun ports. I've also ordered and waiting for some RB 32mm barrels from Cornwall Boats which is closer to scale than the kit ones. I've got a choice between the kit or upgrade carriages so will make up one of each.

 

I've decided that when it comes to doing the Gun strips (bit scared), I will make some cardboard ones first to get a feel for it and maybe get some reference measurements to apply to the real ones. The other reason I'm doing this is because, although I've read all the great advice on here about getting them on in the right position and in the right shape, I just need a bit of confidence first 

 

Photos coming soon

[popeye the sailor]

I do both.......it depends on how I've done the deck.  the thing I like about lacquer,  is it will give you a harder finish than varnish....less of a chance for dings {unless you get aggressive with something}.   a spray will lessen the chance of pushing the sealer into the calking gaps...light coats is best.   I also don't use a feeler gauge either.   I don't sand the edges of the planking......I just run the pen along the plank and lay it down.  with both of the mating edges done,  it shows up quite well,  and light sanding cleans them up well enough for me.   the best advice is to do as you have been doing.....try things out,  to see what works best for you.  poly Urethane is another sealer that you can try........it comes in different finishes too,  and also can be purchased with stain already in it {you may have heard of wipe on poly}.   I've never tried doing a model like your building......never did gun ports.   I should though........I see so many folks have problems with the pre cut panels,  I think to myself,  "why not simply plank them instead?"   some things are better in theory,  than in application.    no fear..........you'll never learn if you don't try   

[Johnnyreg]

Thanks Denis for sharing your way of doing it. Look forward to trying the laquer, when it arrives. I think I've decided on the pencil caulking for this one. I've not ruled out the shimming or archive pen for future builds but I didn't like the bleed I got on the boxwood I'm using. Maybe other woods will be better, but that's for another day.

 

You're probably right about the gun strips but I haven't seen anyone planking them instead. You probably would I know it 

 

 

 

[Johnnyreg]

Here are the pictures I promised plus some more progress.

The other planking/caulking tests I said I was going to try. I’ve now got my Testors Dullcote and I used it for finishing these samples and I like the finish very much.

 

 

The caulking looks quite good but I’ve discounted them for this build because I want keep it simple for my current skill level so therefore I’m going do the decking as follows (final decision):

Material - 3.4 x 0.6mm Boxwood
Caulking - 2B pencil both sides of join
Finish - Scrape
Sealing - 1 coat of 70/30% Polyurethane/White Spirit, 2 coats Testors Dullcote
 

On a whim I made the lower capstan partner which will go on top of the decking strips. I consulted the FFM books and took the measurements and re-scaled for 1:64

 

 

I glued the 3 strips together and carefully drilled, cut and filed it to shape.

 

 

 

 

As I previously explained I shied off the gun port strips for now and will concentrate on the gun deck and the furniture and canons that go on it

Firstly I painted all the space below the gun deck black, just in case someone tries to look down the hatches.

 

 

 

I dry fitted the gun deck one last time to get my clamping methods sorted. Note the centre line gaps fore and aft.

 

 

I thought the springiness of the wooden strips would help to give the deck a natural curve, especially across the centre line, where some have experienced a ridge forming.

To eliminate the gaps fore and aft I first PVA glued between the deck and just bulkhead #8 for now. After this had set I super glued the fore and aft centre lines using these weird looking clamps I found  I also went down the centre with diluted PVA, applied with a brush.

 

 

After the centre line of the deck was fixed, I relaxed the outer clamps and injected PVA between the deck and the other bulkheads, where I could, and re-clamped. I then brushed round all the joints with diluted PVA just to make sure. The next day, just to make doubly sure, I went round all the joints again with a bead of PVA.

 

 

I then remembered the good advice to strengthen the weak unsupported areas of the deck so I just added some short bits of wood across the centre line with big blobs of glue to fill the curvature, as I didn’t want to clamp them and flatten out the natural curves of the deck.

 

 

The deck is now so strong I feel I could jump up and down on it, better not test this out though 

 

I next went about making the coamings and gratings, which I’ve never done before, and thought this should be pretty straight forward (remember that thought).

I measured the kit drawings which differed from the measurements in the FFM book but then remembered the FFM book doesn’t cover the Fly specifically but is generic to the “Sloop” type of ship, if I’m correct, so this could explain the difference. I then checked several Fly logs and counted the holes on their pictures but there was no consistency between the logs I checked.
In the end I went for the sizes on hmsfly.com here which ties up with the kit drawing sizes, near enough.

 

They are:

Fore Deck Grating      ..          ..        4 x 2 squares

Gun Deck Main Hatch (Large)          11 x 13 squares

Gun Deck Hatch (Medium)   ..          11 x 8 squares

Gun Deck Hatch (Small)        ..         7 x 6 squares

Poop Deck Two Small Gratings       3 x 3 squares

Poop Deck 3 Grating Hatch  ..          9 x 4 squares per grating

 

First off, I assembled all the grating strips which was just enough for 4 blocks of 15 x 15. I then brushed on diluted polyurethane varnish to glue together

 

The Admiral thought they were Shreddies . Maybe if mine don’t turn out too well… just maybe I could… What do you think? 

 

 

When my "Shreddies" were dry I thought I could simply cut the sizes I needed with a razor saw. I haven’t got a photo of what happened next but just try to imagine a big pile of match sticks . The varnish wasn’t as strong as I thought, or maybe my technique was wrong. I re-assembled the “matchsticks” and glued the underneath side of all 4 blocks with brushed on diluted PVA.

These pictures show how I eventually managed to make them.

I taped both sides to give the blocks more strength while cutting

T = Topside, arrows are Fore and Aft, Number are grating size in mm
Both the strips and the gaps are 1mm each which give a pitch of 2mm

 

When cutting I found it important to cut from the solid side of the strips and not the teeth side. When you get halfway through the teeth just fall away anyway, if that makes sense.

I also made these clamps to gently hold the structure solid and then used very slow gentle backward cuts

 

 

 

 

All edges were sanded with the tape still on top and bottom for insurance. Here they are finished ready for gluing the coaming and head ledges on.

 

 With coamings and head ledges.

 

 

 

I intend to curve slightly to match the deck curvature after the decking is competed. I now have the sizes to plank the decking with the intention of butting up to them.

I need to think about the guns and carriages now so assembled one of the kit supplied ones (2 seconds) and also one of the Fly upgrade ones (a lot longer)

I made up a little jig for gluing the upgrade ones as the joints are very loose and I wanted to get the side tapers symmetrical. I drilled 0.6mm holes for the mini dowels and the yellow sheet on the board is the backing paper that sticky labels come on, which is resistant to the PVA glue I’m using.

 

 

Parts assembled with tiny blobs of glue so as not to glue them to the jig

 

I also painted the outside joints around the delicate truck axles with diluted PVA

 

The axles very gently rounded and trucks dry fitted.

 

These are tiny fiddly things to build but will be easier to drill than the supplied cast ones. I’m still waiting for the 32mm RB cannons to arrive. I’ve also recently ordered some cannons and carriages from Syren, which they say could take 20 days to arrive in the UK and then they will probably be held until I’ve paid VAT on them. When they arrive I will have 3 sets of carriages and guns to choose from.

 

Next I think I will press ahead on the gun deck planking…

 

I’ve just re-read my build log and I hope I am not going into too much detail, please let me know if I am. I know a lot of this is bread and butter stuff to a lot of you but it’s a journey of discovery for me and hopefully will help others who are at a similar skill and experience level to me.

 

 

 

[Dfell]

Looking good Johnnyreg.

Make sure the grate (under quarter deck) is okay to allow the steps to be positioned down from the quarter deck. I made mine slightly smaller to allow room for the steps.

Regards

Doug

[Johnnyreg]

Hi Doug

 

Thanks for looking in. I'm following your fantastic looking build and refer to it often. Hope mine is half as good as yours.

I never thought about the quarter deck steps coming down so will definitely check that out so thanks for that.

[Johnnyreg]

 

3 hours ago, SpyGlass said:

AAAhhhggg I forgot to mention - dont try to trim the gratings with a saw  - tooo late !!

I use a blade!

It may not be too late for the other tip though - watch when you are sanding the grating curve!

You must be soooo careful or you end up breaking off  "teeth" - if you do loose one - you can usually stick it straight back on with superglue !

Thanks SpyGlass. I thought my technique might be wrong. Oh well I managed it in the end. I like to do it the hard way  Thank you for the curve sanding warning, I will be careful.

[paulsutcliffe]

Hi john

Yes unfortunately we have to pay customs charges on anything over £15 coming in from the states at the post office, I got stung on all my orders from syren £25 on the last order but the quality of chucks items makes up for it

[Johnnyreg]

Hi Paul

 

Thanks for looking in. Yes I thought custom charges were coming my way but hey ho. I’ve seen the Chuck ones on Doug’s (Dfell) build and others and they look good. The Chuck guns looks a bit small but I’m hoping the RB guns, at 32mm might fit the chuck carriages. I’m sure between the 3 sets I’ll find a good combination. 

[popeye the sailor]

if you really want a good laugh,  look up my United States project and look at how I made gratings.   for a first attempt though,  I wasn't too far off the mark,  although, there is a noticeable scale issue.   the thread method looks good......nice even spacing too     another method that I tried was sandwiching in mahogany thin strips....they can be purchased in assorted widths,  depending on how thick your planking is.   the only bad point with it though,  is the fact that .5 mm is a bit too wide,  but looks really nice once sealed.   carriages look'in good so far.

[Johnnyreg]

Thanks Denis.

 

I liked the thread method for neatness too, especially the 0.4mm one but it's too big, the same as you thought that the 0.5 mahogany you tried was.

I see what you mean about your home made grating on your United States project, hats off for even attempting that but you pulled it off. I noticed you haven't put them on yet is that further down the line?

 

I think I have got plank testing fatigue now.

 

It's a shame that in my pre-modelling days I went on the 40% replica of the Bark Endeavour in Whitby and never noticed the decking/caulking, why would you.

The good news is that the full size replica is coming back to Whitby permanently, some time this year, so I intend to visit it often and take more notice this time, and lots of photos. It's only about one and a half hours away.

 

A few weeks ago, I told the Admiral that I'm taking her on holiday soon and she asked, "that's nice, what have you in mind" I said,  "how do you fancy Portsmouth" she said "are there some ships there by any chance" . Anyway it might be happening so I will get a good look at the Victory and visit the NMM too . Again lots of photos will be taken.

 

I may create a new thread with the pictures.

[Johnnyreg]

Yes they do SpyGlass and you’re so lucky but I need to see in the flesh too. Also the Admiral needs a blooming holiday so I am gonna God damn make sure she gets one 

Edited March 13, 2018 by Johnnyreg

[popeye the sailor]

.....even if there IS an ulterior motive to it       great examples of deck nibbling Spyglass     the tree nails are almost invisible!.......now I don't feel bad not doing them,  even though I very well could have.   that gauge in the deck.......does it measure listing,  or pitch?

 

never tire of testing John.......great way to see how an idea would look in the flesh   

[popeye the sailor]

thanks Spyglass   

[Johnnyreg]

Thanks Denis, SpyGlass and all who have hit the like button.

 

Just to set the record straight, and before you think I’m a selfish old b***** ,  I will take the Admiral on a proper holiday later in the year .

 

Don’t get me wrong Denis, I enjoyed the testing I did very much and I learnt hell of a lot from it but I need to make progress now with my build. Especially now the weather is getting warmer and the growing and walking season is nearing. We need to get out and get some colour in our cheeks as I’m looking a bit peaky. I will try to spend at least one day a week on it though to keep the interest going.

[popeye the sailor]

oh,  I know.......I hear ya.   I'd rather spend time at the table,  than at the drawing board.   lots of folks slow their logs down during the warmer weather.....it's tough being cooped up all winter long.   

[Johnnyreg]

A lot of progress made (for me anyway)…

 

First of all I’ve changed my mind regarding the coamings and hatches. I was going to plank around them but with it being my first attempt at proper planking I thought I would have enough to worry about so went for the simpler option of planking underneath them.

 

As this was going to be my approach I needed to shape the underside of the coamings and hatches to match the curvature of the finished deck so used this good method I’ve seen others use here.

 

After I had rounded the fore hatch for the ladder-way, I added some thin sections to give the hatch some illusion of depth (picture later)

 

Now comes the part I’ve really been really looking forward to, decking the Gun Deck. I’m using 3.4mm boxwood and pencil caulking as mentioned earlier. The maximum plank length will be 90mm.

 

I drew this plan a while ago and as you can see I’m intend using a three butt shift pattern, except down the centre where the planks are short enough anyway.

 

I plan to have a waterway strip, which is not shown on my plan, but this will be a flat affair and not sloping as shown in the FFM books.

 

I also want to have a go at some fancy plank joints around the acute curves. I’m not sure what these are called specifically but I think they are hooded planks but I’ve seen other terms used such as, nibbling and joggling but here is a picture of what I will actually be attempting.

 

I wish I could find a single resource on the different types of edge planking used and the timelines when they were typically used, does anyone know of such a resource?

 

I’ll go with the term “hooded planks” until someone corrects me. The only problem I have with these joints is my boxwood stock consists of 3.4, 4.5, and 8mm (limited) but I’ll have a go using the 4.5mm for the Hooded planks. I think really it should be about 1.5 times wider than the standard width so 5mm would have been better. If it doesn’t look right it will be hidden anyway so no big deal.

 

First plank down is along the full length of the deck to make sure those either side will be lined up correctly.

 

I started the shift pattern once clear of the smaller coamings. Note the ladder-way hatch lining and the visible decking below.

 

All furniture dry fitted to check they covered up my plank edges

 

Fiddlesticks (**&&&***!!!) Just when I thought things were going well. That’s the second time I’ve knocked this one off so it’s stopping off for now

 

 

Here is the decking done as far as I can for now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

With deck furniture, dry fitted

 

 

 

I really enjoyed the decking but I was glad to finish, if that makes sense.

 

The Chuck guns and carriages have now arrived which didn’t take as long as I thought they would (11 days not 20 as I was told). I had to pay VAT and a customs charge as expected.

 

The laser cut parts look really clean and a lot better than the Amati upgrade ones.

 

 

I will build one of these up to do my comparisons with the Fly supplied and Upgrade ones and check the gun heights for the gun ports.

 

Hope to have another update soon.

 

[paulsutcliffe]

Hi John

Nice work on the planking, apparently it is called joggling and there were two shipwrights rules regarding this

1. The square end of the joggled plank must be half the width of the plank

2. A plank must be joggled when the snipe is more than twice the width of the plank, the snipe being the diagonal cut across the width of the plank made to fit it into an angle

 

hope you didn't get to stung on the customs charges

Regards

Paul

[popeye the sailor]

I think it's more like nibbing....joggled planking is in regards to the hull planking. the other joint you saw going aroung the margin,  is called a scarf joint.   very nicely done.   you also made mention about the center planking on the deck.  depending whether you do two planks or a single,  would be called the king plank,  they are usually a tad thicker {depending on the ship your building},  and are usually laid as one continuous plank..... no butt joints.

 

looks very good                       

[alde]

Your deck looks really nice. The caulking is perfect. 

[Johnnyreg]

Thanks Paul, Denis, SpyGlass & Al for your kind words and thanks also to all who hit the like button

 

Thanks Al (alde) & Jobbie for following and welcome aboard.

 

Paul - thanks for clarifying the shipwrights rules for sizing. I’ve just ordered some 6mm boxwood from Original Marquetry here in the UK for when I come to do the two upper decks so that should be better than the 4.5mm I’ve just used and should give a more realistic looking edge joint. The 16 Syren/Chuck guns and carriages were £71 plus £19 import vat and handling fee so there not cheap. I just hope I end up using them

 

Denis - according to the FFM books the centre king plank is thicker on the gun deck but the extra thickness is recessed into the underlying beam and is level on the top. If I said I had done it that way would you believe me? 

Typically, after searching for ages on information about the edge planking and timelines for usage, I have just spent 10 minutes and found a lively discussion here

 

Also check here on page 9 of this pdf

http://modelshipworldforum.com/resources/Confed/Chapter10.pdf

 

SpyGlass - thanks for the warning about part 38 or did you mean part 43. Either way I will be careful.

 

 

 

[Johnnyreg]

Thanks SpyGlass for clarifying which part is vulnerable and the warning about the bits problem, I will check with the drawings hopefully tomorrow. Yes I’ve noticed part 38 has to be slid on horizontally not vertically because of the tongue & groove angle.

Edited March 25, 2018 by Johnnyreg

[Johnnyreg]

I’ve checked with both the assembly and part drawings and it appears to be between 4 & 5mm to high but the lower cross piece height appears to be ok. Not sure at this time what it needs to be related to height wise so will leave out until I know. Thanks for the warning.