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Rigging Question - Virginia Privateer


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Hello Everyone,

I've also posted this question in my build log, but thought I'd place it here as well. I'm restoring an old damaged model of a Virginia Privateer, which I understand to be an example of an American topsail schooner. I have a copy of the original plans and have been able to decipher most of the details, but one bit has me unsure. It's a yard near the top of the main mast and it appears to be mounted in an almost vertical position. It's not something I've come across before and it's unclear to me from the plan how to attach and rig it.

DSCN1758.JPG.a97ebdef14a6fe178b93128910a500ad.JPG

I do know that where it's marked "A" it's indicating blocks. There are four shown. The one in the lower right (which actually represents two - p/s) is unrelated, but I'm not sure how to rig the other three, which appear to attach the yard in two places and have two lines which belay somewhere on the deck.

 

If anyone is able to explain, or perhaps illustrate how to do this rigging, I'd be most appreciative.

Many thanks,

David


Current Build - St. Roch, Billing Boats; HMS Agamemnon, Caldercraft (on hold)

Previous Builds - Armed Virginia Sloop, Model Shipways; Constitution, Model Shipways; Rattlesnake, Mamoli; Virginia Privateer, Marine Model Co, restoration; Prince de Neufchatel, Model Shipways; Charles W. Morgan, Model Shipways; Pride of Baltimore II, Model Shipways, Bluenose, Model Shipways (x2); Niagara, Model Shipways; Mayfower, Model Shipways; Shamrock V, Amati; HMS Pegasus, Victory/Amati

 

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It looks to me like it is in fact a topsail yard, with some kind of attempt at perspective in the drawing.

 

I think you would be hard pressed to find any kind of rigging plan that included a yard/boom as drawn..

 

Here is a link to what appears to be the same model, which sports a topsail, and a top gallant.

Not a lot of detail but, using standard practice should get you by..

http://www.pielcraftsmen.com/ordimages/salemodels.htm

 

P.S.

There are reasons to be critical of some of the details in Petersson's  Fore & Aft rigging book,

however this over-all view  of a similar rig, might give a basic idea of a rigging plan.

 

Schooner1.jpg.464da303bd94e7ca4978e3ac8aa494ae.jpg

 

Edited by Gregory

Luck is just another word for good preparation.

—MICHAEL ROSE

Current builds:    Rattlesnake (Scratch From MS Plans 

On Hold:  HMS Resolution ( AKA Ferrett )

In the Gallery: Yacht Mary,  Gretel, French Cannon

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Hi Gregory,

Thanks for the quick reply, however I definitely don't believe that the plan is just showing perspective. The other yards are all depicted at 90 degrees while this one is shown at a steep angle. Also, in my web searching I can find pictures that suggest this position is correct for this type of ship, but they don't show how to rig it, which is my dilemma. I do have the Petersson fore and aft book, but the details are quite weak with respect to this yard.

 

Here are a couple of examples of what I mean.

tall-ship-lynx-square-topsail-schooner-interpretation-american-letter-marque-vessel-same-name-56646651.jpg.f4529a1e8b798d16c4d5cfab17e764e4.jpg

topsail.jpg.881672b3b9f4f447e99bdb4e5de5dd1b.jpg

Thanks again,

David

 

 

 


Current Build - St. Roch, Billing Boats; HMS Agamemnon, Caldercraft (on hold)

Previous Builds - Armed Virginia Sloop, Model Shipways; Constitution, Model Shipways; Rattlesnake, Mamoli; Virginia Privateer, Marine Model Co, restoration; Prince de Neufchatel, Model Shipways; Charles W. Morgan, Model Shipways; Pride of Baltimore II, Model Shipways, Bluenose, Model Shipways (x2); Niagara, Model Shipways; Mayfower, Model Shipways; Shamrock V, Amati; HMS Pegasus, Victory/Amati

 

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David, I see where I totally missed the boat on that, assuming it was a square sail ...

 

Here is what Mondfeld shows.

 

Your examples look like a flying configuration to me.  I don't see going aloft to set those sails..

 

 

 

5a6fd27a945cb_GaffSails..thumb.jpg.ed73fa8604035a9bce8b4bb6025adcd4.jpg

Edited by Gregory

Luck is just another word for good preparation.

—MICHAEL ROSE

Current builds:    Rattlesnake (Scratch From MS Plans 

On Hold:  HMS Resolution ( AKA Ferrett )

In the Gallery: Yacht Mary,  Gretel, French Cannon

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I am fairly sure it was not permanently hoisted. There was a small block seized around the main topmast at the upper shoulder. A line was seized around the jackyard near the middle. It was led through the block and down to a pin on a spider band around the mast at the deck or a pin-rail in roughly the same spot. The yard would be hoisted with the sail already bent to it. When the line attached to the tack was tightened it would cause one end of the jackyard to come down parallel to the topmast and the other end would swing straight up above the truck. Most schooners of the type would carry both of the topsails shown by Gregory in his last post: a regular and a larger "kite" with a jackyard for light weather. Some large schooner yachts in the late 19th century had jackyards on the fore mast as well, but I have never that in either naval or merchant service.

Edited by michaelpsutton2

Drown you may, but go you must and your reward shall be a man's pay or a hero's grave

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Hi David

I will not even pretend to have an answer to your rigging question, in fact I am looking forward to the answer just as much as you are.

 

Do you have the source of the first contemporary picture you posted? It looks like one of the newer replica ships, possibly on the East coast? If so then possibly you could contact them and present your question. Their ship is obviously rigged in the way you wonder about so they should know if anyone would.

 

Just a possibility.

 

Lou

Lou

 

Build logs: Colonial sloop Providence 1/48th scale kit bashed from AL Independence

Currant builds:

Constructo Brigantine Sentinel (Union) (On hold)

Minicraft 1/350 Titanic (For the Admiral)

1/350 Heavy Cruiser USS Houston (Resin)

Currant research/scratchbuild:

Schooner USS Lanikai/Hermes

Non ship build log:

1/35th UH-1H Huey

 

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Thanks for the suggestions Lou and Michael.

I'm beginning to believe that the rigging for this yard is actually simpler than I've been imagining. I think I'll seize a block to the mast near the top and seize a line around the centre of the yard. I'll pass the line through the block and belay it to a point on the deck yet to be determined. If I'm reading the plan correctly, it appears that there is a second block seized lower on the mast and a second line seized near the end of the yard, passed through the block and then belayed at the deck as well.

 

Although the plan doesn't show such a line, I may run one from the top of this yard to the end of the main gaff, which will put some tension on it, which may be necessary to for it to hold its position. The model in the example photo a couple of posts above does have such a line.

 

Thanks again,

David


Current Build - St. Roch, Billing Boats; HMS Agamemnon, Caldercraft (on hold)

Previous Builds - Armed Virginia Sloop, Model Shipways; Constitution, Model Shipways; Rattlesnake, Mamoli; Virginia Privateer, Marine Model Co, restoration; Prince de Neufchatel, Model Shipways; Charles W. Morgan, Model Shipways; Pride of Baltimore II, Model Shipways, Bluenose, Model Shipways (x2); Niagara, Model Shipways; Mayfower, Model Shipways; Shamrock V, Amati; HMS Pegasus, Victory/Amati

 

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Hi David

Thanks for the reply.

 

By the way in case you did not have the identification on the ship in your first picture, it appears to be the Lynx out of Nantucket. http://tallshiplynx.com/

 

Lou

Lou

 

Build logs: Colonial sloop Providence 1/48th scale kit bashed from AL Independence

Currant builds:

Constructo Brigantine Sentinel (Union) (On hold)

Minicraft 1/350 Titanic (For the Admiral)

1/350 Heavy Cruiser USS Houston (Resin)

Currant research/scratchbuild:

Schooner USS Lanikai/Hermes

Non ship build log:

1/35th UH-1H Huey

 

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I had a question with regards to the rigging of the fore t'gallant sheets on the Pride of Baltimore II. The sail is substantially shorter than the topsail yard and I did not understand how the sheets could lead to blocks at the yardarms. I emailed her captain, Miles I think, and rec'd a prompt and very informative reply. Capt Mile told me there are thimbles seized at the yardarms on long pendants that reach in to where the sail is.. The sheets lead through the thimbles down aft of the sails.  The t'gallant yard is hoisted with the sail already bent to it and set flying (no braces). The sail in never furled on the yard, instead the whole assembly is brought down on deck. This is why there are no pictures of her with the t'gallant yard unless the sail is set. Capt Miles said he in not an expert on how it happens. He just issues the command set the t'gallant and the crew takes care of it. More to your problem, the "Pride" also carries a jackyard on the main.

You could also try the crew of the Lynx that you pictured above.

Drown you may, but go you must and your reward shall be a man's pay or a hero's grave

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Thanks everyone for all the input; it's very helpful. I've looked at pictures of the Lynx along with many others. It seems that on a real ship when that sail is not hoisted, the yard is not there either. But on some, but not all, models without sails the modeler includes the yard. I guess is depends on how the modeler sees it. If the intention is to represent  a ship where its sails are not hoisted, then you would leave it off. If the intention is to represent a ship with its sails hoisted, but for the sake of clarity on the model the sails are "invisible" then you would include it.

 

I'll give it some more thought, but increasingly I'm leaning toward just leaving it off completely.

 

Thanks again,

David


Current Build - St. Roch, Billing Boats; HMS Agamemnon, Caldercraft (on hold)

Previous Builds - Armed Virginia Sloop, Model Shipways; Constitution, Model Shipways; Rattlesnake, Mamoli; Virginia Privateer, Marine Model Co, restoration; Prince de Neufchatel, Model Shipways; Charles W. Morgan, Model Shipways; Pride of Baltimore II, Model Shipways, Bluenose, Model Shipways (x2); Niagara, Model Shipways; Mayfower, Model Shipways; Shamrock V, Amati; HMS Pegasus, Victory/Amati

 

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No, no ! ... please don’t leave it off. 

I’ve  fallen in love with the Dapper Tom, Baltimore Clipper (fictitious), have completed one, but have two more in progress. My first has square topsails on the main mast, but I intended to have the gaff topsail on the next one. I, too, posted an inquiry about the rigging of this sail some time ago, with little success. Somebody called it a “Sliding Gunter” topsail, or something like that. It looks like you have a more responsive audience, and I’d love to see how you carry it to completion...so I can copy it. 

Steve

 

"If they suspect me of intelligence, I am sure it will soon blow over, ha, ha, ha!"

-- Jack Aubrey

 

Builds:

Yankee Hero, Fannie Gorham, We’re Here, Dapper Tom (x3), New Bedford Whaler, US Brig Lawrence (Niagara), Wyoming (half hull), Fra Berlanga (half hull), Gokstad Viking Ship, Kate Cory, Charles Morgan, Gjoa

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I would include the jackyard even if it was not normally deployed carried without the sail. It speaks to the loftiness of the sail plans that this class of vessel was noted for. Many models include items of rigging that are associated with sails even when the sails are not represented, buntlines and brails to name bit a few.

Drown you may, but go you must and your reward shall be a man's pay or a hero's grave

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  • 2 weeks later...

In the end, I decided to include the jackyard. I think it adds to the model. It appears to me from the plans, that this yard is rigging very much like a gaff with the equivalent of a peak halliard and a throat halliard. I added line running from the top end of the yard to the end of the gaff. I don't believe such a line would actually be there, but rather just the sail, but I needed to add it to give some tension and make the yard sit property.

 

Many thanks for input on this subject.

David

DSCN1775.JPG.085727ac85daae26b99f238eb5d1a07c.JPG

DSCN1768.JPG.0cc38b0edd03d54c5021867a32ddfbb3.JPG


Current Build - St. Roch, Billing Boats; HMS Agamemnon, Caldercraft (on hold)

Previous Builds - Armed Virginia Sloop, Model Shipways; Constitution, Model Shipways; Rattlesnake, Mamoli; Virginia Privateer, Marine Model Co, restoration; Prince de Neufchatel, Model Shipways; Charles W. Morgan, Model Shipways; Pride of Baltimore II, Model Shipways, Bluenose, Model Shipways (x2); Niagara, Model Shipways; Mayfower, Model Shipways; Shamrock V, Amati; HMS Pegasus, Victory/Amati

 

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Nicely done. 

Steve

 

"If they suspect me of intelligence, I am sure it will soon blow over, ha, ha, ha!"

-- Jack Aubrey

 

Builds:

Yankee Hero, Fannie Gorham, We’re Here, Dapper Tom (x3), New Bedford Whaler, US Brig Lawrence (Niagara), Wyoming (half hull), Fra Berlanga (half hull), Gokstad Viking Ship, Kate Cory, Charles Morgan, Gjoa

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