Chuck

MANDATORY MUST READ
**Banned Kit Manufacturers on MSW - Pirated KITS Prohibited **

195 posts in this topic

Chuck's posting of those manufacturers that rip off others is a service. It tells all of us who we should avoid. Note that even thou someone else has done the work, these copied kits are garbage anyway. Refer to the banned list and don't buy from those that copy others.

 

Tom R

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Hi Chuck...Thanks for the skinny on these Rip-Artists...Nothing lower, or worse than a thief...!!!

bgarden likes this

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I passed on a Jefferson Davis model boat kit on eBay.  It said it was by Blue Jacket Shipcrafters but listed the country of manufacture as the United Arab Emirates. 

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Smart move and good eye.  All BJ kits are made in-house in Maine.

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As I stated in MSW V1, I support this ban completely, even gone to the extent trying to stay away from other products coming China, which is hard.

But I prefer to pay for items that comes from the original manufacturer.

Was in need of a new chain saw, the majority of them came from China, I went for a Husqvarna chainsaw manufactured in Sweden exported to USA.

Want to buy a Volvo but now Volvo cars is majority owned by a chinese company, maybe it will be a BMW or MB.

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Just curious, after finding this board again, post crash...  Shouldn't Pyro plastic kits be on this list?  And Smer, even though they bought the pirate/copy Aurora molds from some British company.  The ban seems pretty draconian to me, coming from a science fiction modeling background where wherever someone comes out with a kit of the same subject the torches and pitchforks come out with cries of "Recaster!", and a good portion of the time that's just not the case.  Is there a thread here showing some proof?   Most of these kits are based on public domain plans anyway.

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Ah... wrong.  A lot of their kits are rip-offs from copyrighted works.  Such as the Hahn and Ancre plans.  Also there's the Confederacy ripped off from Model Expo.  Rather than allowing the non-rip-off kits, we're banning the whole line. When they stop selling pirated kits, we'll lift the ban.

 

Why would Pyro and Smer be on the list? I'm asking this not as a moderator but as a modeler. I've not heard of plastic/resin kits be pirated.  Maybe the other moderators or admins have.

 

The Pyro line, per Wikipedia: Eventually, the Pyro toolings were acquired by Lindberg Products, Inc., and were re-issued with new box art many times, well into the early 2000s. (Lindberg subsequently became part of J. Lloyd International, which was, in turn sold to Round2 LLC of South Bend, Indiana in 2013.)

 

As for Smer, they seem legit in that they bought the tooling/rights from Aurora and other companies including Heller. 

 

I could be wrong on Pyro and Smer.

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Pyro came out with some plastic versions of Model Shipways kits in the same scale, but obviously they had to do a lot of work to make a steel mold for molten plastic from a wooden pattern, or the sketch that passed for plans in the 1950's-

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&q=pyro+%22pirate+plastics%22&oq=pyro+%22pirate+plastics%22&gs_l=hp.3...1352.11111.0.11533.22.22.0.0.0.0.102.1636.21j1.22.0...0.0.0..1c.1.17.psy-ab.ojIsYMtOuI8&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.48572450,d.cGE&fp=51ae5c004d1402cc&biw=1821&bih=857

The Smer kits  of the Viking Ship and Black Falcon were pantographed off of Aurora kits and put into production by some english firm, and sold to Smer after that company went belly up.  I'll have to dig up a reference for that if you need one.  I would like to see a side-by-side comparison of how the Asian kits are a "rip off" of other kits.  Identical parts layouts, plan sheets that are obviously identical, etc.  If you are making a serious accusation, you need to back it up.  What is the base kit for the  ZHL Black Pearl?  Or their Dutch Yacht?  A quick websearch didn't find any kits of the same subjects. I'm quite willing to be convinced, but I need some proof.  And like the Pyro kits-take a look at the  Blockade Runner vs. the Harriet Lane- there is a lot of work involved in writing the program to laser cut parts and make a new assembly manual.  Even if it is in machine translated English.  And going back to Aurora WWI airplane kits, they were all based off of three views from one not very correct book about WWI aircraft.  Does that make them "rip offs"?

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Now this is going to turn into something I am going to watch just to see what is said. LOL

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Pebbleworm,

 

I followed your link and this needssome research...I've brought it up with the admins and other moderators. 

 

The reason their whole product line is banned is because we won't support pirating period.  Black Pearl, by the way, is copyrighted by Disney. 

 

I'm just curious.. what's your interest in ZHL's not being banned?

 

The other question is, from your link, the Pyro piracy happened about 40 years ago????  Are these kits even being made today?

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The reason their whole product line is banned is because we won't support pirating period.  Black Pearl, by the way, is copyrighted by Disney. 

 

I can confirm that you absolutely do need permission from Disney to produce and develop a true kit of this vessel. The costs involved are not small and of course, it has to be done under licence.

 

Or so I am told....

mtaylor likes this

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Disney have not granted permissions for any chinese company to make black pearl kits. 

 

If you have any particular wish for a kit manufacturer to be banned then contact an admin/moderator with your evidence. If a company/kit is already on our 'banned' list then you could try and send evidence that they no longer are using breaking the law. 

 

Until that point then they are not permitted on site.

edmay, WackoWolf and mtaylor like this

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I think you guys are missing the point here.  The plastic kits are not ripp offs of the wooden ones.  They may be of the same ships but they are certainly not copies.  They dont use the same plans  and they dont use the same identical parts.  This is completely different where the companies banned actually took the plans and copied them verbatim.   They simply created a countrefiet version.

 

Its akin to making a copy of a book and selling it.  The MFGs you mentioned are not doing doing that.  Unless there is definitive proof then they will not be banned.  For example....simply taking my plan sheets for Confederacy and removing my name and Model Shipways and then printing them...thats what we are talking about here.  Unless there is evidence that Pyro or other plastic kit MFGs are doing this...it is best not to accuse them.   But if you do have proof then send it to the staff by PM.

 

Chuck

Nirvana, WackoWolf, mtaylor and 4 others like this

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I don't want to ban anyone, I have no interest in ZHL, and I'm not a 50 cent party-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party

I was just curious if there was any evidence to back up banning the discussion of Chinese kits, and unfortunately I haven't seen any.  This is your sandbox though, and you can ban anyone you want to.  A model of the same subject in a different scale does not seem like a rip-off to me. The same ships get built and kitted over and over mostly because they are the few that have decent plans and drawings still extant.  I just brought up the Pyro/Pirate Plastics example because I thought it was fairly well known, and it sure irritated the Model Shipways people back in the ancient long ago.  This thread did inspire me to pick up a ZHL yacht kit to see what the fuss is about.  There's a build log in French at

 

LINK DELETED

 

 

but rest assured I won't mention it here...

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ok.. I just thought I'd ask about a connection.  Sometimes there's more to things than meets the eye, especially on the Internet. 

 

No evidence...hmm... Chuck, the designer of the Confederacy kit?  The posts about the Mantua San Felipe having Mantua on the plans?  The Yacht?   We had several examples on MSW 1.0 before the big crash about Hahn plans and Ancre plans being used. 

 

Let me ask you a question:  If you had put many many hours into designing a set of plans and some company produced a product using those plans and paid no royalties, would you consider yourself ripped off?  Or would you be happy that buyers are getting the product for a lot less money?

docidle and dafi like this

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I have seen the plans for the ZHL San Felipe kit and they are 100% without a doubt Mantuas plans. They just changed the scale.

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The owner of ZHL actually contacted Jim and I last year.  He defended the practice of ripping off kits.  He all but admitted it to us.  He said they do it because it is too expensive to ship them to china and its easier to just make the copies.   I asked him why then does he export these pirated kits.  Why then do they take the anatomy of the ship series and scan them so they can be offered for sale at pennies of the actual cost.  I asked why on the site they did the same to Ancre plans and Monographs.  He sent no reply. This is just an acceptable practice in China and they dont see anything wrong with it.   When the Confederacy kit first came out they actually had the balls to use a scratch built model by a California man as the cover art and on the website.  It had of course no resemblance to the kit.  The kit uses two different sets of plans copied as is.  Mine and Harold Hahns.  Literally no changes.  Until China in general stops ripping off other folks hard work the ban will stay in place.  I suspect you are somehow affiliated with trying to push these kits since you mentioned an organization that no one probably ever knew existed.  There will always be people that buy them because they just dont care...They would rather save a few bucks.   For the folks that buy them by accident...I am sorry,  but we will not support it regardless.

 

These are our rules and if you dont like them.....have fun!!  Other Forums turn a blind eye towards this.  We will not.  We actually have some ethics.  We support the designers and MFGs that invest so much time and $$$ for us.   You can feel free to spend time on the forums like SOS or MSB that would rather support these crooks than the hobby they supposedly love.  If you bought one of these kits knowing this, shame on you....if you dont see anything wrong with this practice....shame on you again :angry: .   When the actual kit MFGs start to go out of business...you can thank yourself for doing your best to help that along to save a few pennies.. For the few folks that disagree with this rule....we dont really care.  You probably wear a fake Rolex and carry a fake Gucci bag while listening to your pirated music.  

 

Chuck

dafi, bigpav, Jaxboat and 22 others like this

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People,

 

ANYONE who wishes to verify that ZHL etc are rip-off artists need only do a little research on-line.  Pics of their kits and plans are available, and the evidence that Pebbleworm asked for can be clearly seen in those photos.  We WILL NOT provide those links ourselves, because we do not wish to make it any easier for people to find those sites.  You don't want to take our word on this issue, then do your own homework.

 

As for Pebbleworm, your actions here are detestable.  You deliberately linked to a build log of a banned kit, then smugly announced that you wouldn't.  Juvenile, sir, and your post has earned you a ban.  These kits are real rip-offs of real people.  Chuck is being ripped-off.  Chris Watton is being ripped off.  These are my friends, and I will not sit idly by while you impugn both them and this site.

 

Sorry for the unusual tone of this post, but we mean business on this issue!  Thanks to those of you who are standing fast with us.

Chuck, jml1083, artitec3 and 25 others like this

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Well..... I had a quick look over there and these are from the top of my hat: 

Royal Caroline = Mantua Panart

Golden star = Mantua

Sovereign of the seas/San Felipe/Soleil Royal = Mantua Panart sergal

Requin= Corel

 

I rest my case

Chuck likes this

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I did not know about this site until the crash was mentioned on SOS. Unfortunately, because of this, I had no idea of the banned products. I like larger models and thus got caught up with the size the banned SF kit. Only after purchasing it, did I find out it was a banned product and the people on SOS told me about it. Now I am stuck with a kit that I have no desire to build. I had thought about dumping it on eBay but figured out that would be only doing disservice to the hobby. So now I know that bought a lot of spare wood for a high price, especially since not all of it is even good enouh to use as spare parts.

trippwj likes this

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i knew from the start this pebbleworm was nothing more then a troll thats why i didnt say anything before.

 

honestly i dont need to go look for proof as i trust in the judgement of Chuck and the other administrators/moderators

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Whats offensive about it.   Some guy was questioning our rules.   I said this not a public forum...we have rules.  If he doesnt like it then fine..

 

If there are folks who support crooks and didnt like what I said then I really dont care if they get offended.   We will do the right thing here at MSW.  There is NO wiggle room for these folks.  The rule will not change...period.  This has serious implications for the health of our hobby.  MSW will stand above the other sites that dont see it that way and think its just normal to expect or that we must accept the behavior.  I most certainly will not accept it.  What I find offensive are the folks that think this type of behavior or allowing it on their site is OK.  That is seriously offensive to the folks that design and produce these kits and plans.  Someone must stand up to these folks.

 

Chuck

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I support the MSW ban on pirated kits, plans, and etc. The only beneficiaries of pirated goods are those that produce those goods and those who knowingly distribute them.

 

I don't know if MSW has reached out to other ship sites and asked them to also to ban any and all forms of pirated kits promotion: advertisements, build logs, and so forth. If not, then it's an idea worth considering. If so, and other sites have decided to allow that sort of thing (a no response is no excuse and is tantamount to saying it's OK) then (1) it's worth letting that be known here on MSW and (2) it speaks volumes about those sites' management.

 

In the U.S. one can report manufactures, distributors, and sellers of pirated goods at:

 

http://www.stopfakes.gov/consumer-tools/report-fake-goods

 

If you see those goods being sold in the U.S., report it! Check your country for similar agencies/services, as most countries have now established reporting mechanisms along with stiff penalties.

 

Reporting web-based entities is more difficult and the protocols vary from country to country as well as the level of enforcement. Nonetheless, report it! The best safety mechanism is simply not to support these operations by spending your money on their ill-gotten merchandise. If the offer is too good or the price too low for a brand name kit, then beware.

 

eBay is a tricky place--they may or may not back you; likewise, the same may apply with their affiliate, PayPal. If you unwittingly purchase a fake, report the seller and seek a refund through PayPal. If eBay/PayPal refuses to take appropriate action, or if they weasel, let them know that you (in the US) are going to file complaints with (1) the District Attorney (DA) where their corporation is located and (2) with the above website. If the seller is phyically located in the US, you can use the same leverage directly with them--try tact 1st, as they may have also unknowingly bought pirated goods, and if that doesn't work, then take off your kid gloves.

 

DA offices have fraud units and other consumer protection units under their umbrella. Let eBay/PayPal know that you're filing a formal complaint with their state DA's office about their allowing illegal activity to take place in the US (or your country). You'll be surprised at the results you'll get when you throw down that card and then follow through with it. Be mindful though, the burden of proof will initially be on you: You may have to prove that you were sold pirated goods.

 

In the end, not buying or supporting pirated goods is just good, clean ethics. Pirated products usually are inferior, and the people who knowingly deal in them are nothing more than thieves. Doing what's right isn't always easy, but in this case it is: Support legit companies and the people who bring these great products to us--it's that simple!

 

Jay

Script, docidle and Chuck like this

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I actually was successful with Ebay on ZHL kits for a while...but its not for ever.  One needs to constantly check the site and report it when you see it.   I havent done that in  while.   It takes a lot of time to do that. But yes....I have contacted many of the other sites and forums.  Many of themjust dont care.  There are several forums that the members of this site know about.  They have very different ideas about this stuff.   By allowing them on their sites they are actually supporting crooks and helping to hurt the legitimate makers and kit designers.  They are either stupid or are just cut from a different mold.  

 

They just simply dont care in an effort to get members.  I really dont care that much about possible members wanting to openly buy or build those kits after they know they are pirated.  I much prefer to take a moral stand.   I can sleep well at night because of it.   If you agree.....dont support those sites until they get the message too!!  Its too important...and I am passionate about this as you may now know.   Copyrights and protecting the work of others is crucial to the survival of the hobby.  These Chinese companies might as well break into my home and steal my TV or my wife's Jewelry.   Whats the difference??  Its the same thing.  They are taking our livelihoods without even thinking twice about it.  Unfortunately there are consumers that wont think twice about buying from them too just to save a few pennies....I really dont care to have those folks as members here.  I would rather see them go to the other forums that support the criminals.  That is how strongly I feel about it.

 

I do understand that sometimes folks will buy them who didnt know they were crap...and pirated...I feel bad for them,  but the kits  are still not welcome here.  Try and return it...lots of luck with that.

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What is offensive about that...if you are willing to buy and support the folks that make pirated kits you are probably the same type that supports the buying of the other fake crap out there that takes money away from the folks who designed and brought the real versions to life.  The folks who willingly buy this crap after knowing about who they really are.....get no sympathy from me.  Sorry...and that statement was meant to offend them.   I believe and hope that most of the members here will not support these people.  And will not support the folks that do.  This is the last I will say on the subject..

knightyo, WackoWolf, bigpav and 1 other like this

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My first model ship was a ZHL product too.. (as in the profile pic)

I still done it anyway, but the process was struggling and torturing..

the instruction was really awful.. here's an example

C360_2012-08-25-22-21-40+(960x1280).jpg

first 3 words really epic..

Please Costa Rica...

artitec3 and Dan Vad like this

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