Chuck

MANDATORY MUST READ
**Banned Kit Manufacturers on MSW - Pirated KITS Prohibited **

195 posts in this topic

Janos.

 

i dont see the ban on pirated kits as MSW being dragged into a fight against them. Its a site rule agreed on by the administrators. just like the rule that this is a site for ships not other models.

 

and i think its a rule that most of us here totaly agree with. dont give these crooked manuafaturers a forum to show off there ripped off kits

jml1083, edmay, WackoWolf and 2 others like this

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Janos, I do not think you and Chuck are going to reach agreement on this point.  At this point, perhaps it is best to say, "Comments noted in the log" and get back to operating the ship. 

 

Regarding eBay policy, card model designers have been waging war for years trying to get that site to take action on sellers of pirated paper models, with nothing to show for it.

 

Regards,

WackoWolf likes this

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My first model ship was a ZHL product too.. (as in the profile pic)

I still done it anyway, but the process was struggling and torturing..

the instruction was really awful.. here's an example

C360_2012-08-25-22-21-40+(960x1280).jpg

first 3 words really epic..

Please Costa Rica...

 

All I can say about those "Instructions" is :omg:  :D .

 

:cheers:  Danny

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Hey Guy's

I think that everything that had to be said, has been said. We are only repeating what has been said before. Statements have been made, opinions ventilated, and now things are turning emotional and personal. Since nobody can ad a new angle to look at it, it would be nice to end/close this discussion. 

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Nothing more of value can be said on this topic and if you feel that strongly on it then take it to a pm. Locking..

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I do want to clear something up that is not true.   Janos wrote

 

I expressed my opinion before that I find it unfair that this site bans those who (unintentionally) bought one of those products and now feel completely abandoned also by this forum. Again, I find it not fair but I accepted it. 

 

 

We will not and never will ban someone for buying these products.unknowingly or even knowingly....we never have done that.  That is a complete fabrication.   A lie.... We just prohibit the starting of a build log with kits from these Manufacturers.  We will delete them if started.  

 

Janos....looks like we are in agreement then.   We banned the products and not the members.  The only time we will ban the member is if they do not respect our rules for not allowing these products and continue to create a build log after being repeatedly asked not to.   Read the first post in this topic again. Its a lie started by folks who want to make us out to be something we are not.......if someone bought one of these unknowingly.....it is a shame....but we will not give these kits any kind of exposure.

 

Chuck

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I do not see the constant need for this topic to reincarnate every 6 months. This site is ruled by the owners and administrators. Hence, what they say is the bottom line. If you don't like it, get your own forum...

WackoWolf likes this

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As a businessman, I fully agree with Chuck's position.  It is a shame when someone unknowingly purchases one of these kits, but inclusion of their build logs on this site is a form of advertising and continued support of those manufacturers.  Actually any form of discussion associated with a build log, which would be along the guidelines of our site and not filled with negatives, serves to add legitimacy to these manufacturers. 

 

It is my understanding that there is a basic cultural difference between Chinese and the other members of this site.  In their culture if you can screw someone and get away with it, then it is viewed in a favorable light.  The only negative associated with fraud is if you get caught.  Huge difference between what most of us think as "right and wrong".

 

IF I AM AWARE THAT YOU ARE PURCHASING MATERIALS  FOR A BUILD FOR ONE OF THESE MANUFACTURER'S KITS, I WILL NOT HONOR YOUR ORDER.

 

Have wanted to say that for a long time.  If you think that Chuck has strong feelings on this subject... just get me started.

 

Jeff Hayes

HobbyMill

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 but inclusion of their build logs on this site is a form of advertising and continued support of those manufacturers.  Actually any form of discussion associated with a build log, which would be along the guidelines of our site and not filled with negatives, serves to add legitimacy to these manufacturers. 

 

 

 

100% correct.  It really stinks for those who have purchased pirated kits not to be supported, but if a build log is created for said pirated kit, it just adds legitimacy to the kit and helps to advertise it.

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Crackers,

 

Let's not turn this into a discussion of economics vs. politics, etc. It really has nothing to do with "putting more effort into manufacturing".

 

Piracy is purely greed based and results because everyone wants things cheaper.  To that end, the designers, companies, etc. get screwed.  In the end, the consumer is the one screwed because all the original and higher-quality (and higher-priced) items are gone from the market, be they clothing, household goods, etc.  Model ships are just one small bit of the iceberg.

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Though I was born and raised and live in the US, I don't think the problem is only here. I am sure there was at least one person in Germany or the U.K. or Denmark who may have purchased the knock-off ships. I also don't blame the Chinese culture. There are thieves and pirates in every country around the world. It's really not a political matter. It is more of a moral issue.

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To me it's a financial and business problem.

 

When I design, build and sell a product, and somebody (not just the Chinese) get that product, reverse engineering it (or just copy it) and then sell it back to my customers at 50% of what I need to charge to keep my business going, that would likely put me out of business. And once that happens, I would be very gun shy to try again, because the same thing could happen, and I have no recourse. :angry:

 

Will MSW banning build logs of these knock off kits put them out of business? I doubt it. Will it keep legitimate business going? I doubt that too. But it does send a message to the community here that we don't condone the purchase of this merchandise. And since MSW is probably the largest on line model ship building community, I feel it sends the proper message to our constituents.

 

Okay. . . off my soapbox :o

 

Thanks,

 

Harvey

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thanks for the heads up, these guys have pretty shady websites too from what I saw.  I think I have seen a few ZHL's on Ebay though, that's too bad. 

 

When I was seeing if these crap sites were still online, I noticed that JD Models has a  famous 15th Century ship called the Sanda Mania.  Classic piracy move, just like software.

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  racouch 444 here.  I never came across these kit mfgrs, but glad  I am aware of them now.  After building only two Model expo`s kits ( both incomplete so far ) I don't want to go back to some of the others I`ve tried - which weren't bad or rip - offs, but just not as good with the instructions, and plans.  Does anybody know of a kit manufacturer that offers a kit for the clipper ship " Sea Witch", 1794  POB, or the plans to build one ???   

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I must admit (shamefully?) that I also make armoured vehicles in resin and plastic and it not uncommon to see plastic kits of some things appear very shortly after what are usually extremely accurate resin kits come on the market. This tends to happen when the resin is of such an obscure subject that mainline plastic manufacturers would not see the R & D economically viable against presumed sales. Sometimes the (presumed) knock offs will come from more than one company although the source usually appears to be China or Korea.

I therefore support the ban against these rip-off merchants and I would sooner pay the extra or scratch build (in either format) than purchase their models.

Please note that there some very good armour kit manufacturers in the Far East that do produce original models, therefore I see no reason why the others do not.

 

Mick Pallas

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I'm in for the ban. And all out boycott of those mfgs. You can tell by their website that they are bad. (I also won't buy used video games). If the makers don't get paid we won't get new kits.

 

Racouch.... Try the book ship models and how to build them ($10 amazon) says it has sea witch plans (never read it so no personal experience) might get you started

 

Romm

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As a model making website, we may indeed have negligible impact on the ultimate fate of these companies, but I still think that it's important that we stand up for what we believe.

 

John

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GRJAX,

 

The ban here may not have any deep market impact.  However, it's just one part of our policy.  We also prohibit copyrighted material being sold or infringed upon.  We have kit designers and book authors here as members and many members have been in industries that have had their work pirated. While many places either don't enforce anti-piracy policies (and some seem to encourage Intellectual Property theft) we're not one of them. 

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No excuse for buying anything that you know is pirated. It only hurts the hobby and what is available to us. It also upsets me when things that are public domain are hidden or suppressed. Anything that helps the hobby should be promoted.

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No excuse for buying anything that you know is pirated. It only hurts the hobby and what is available to us. It also upsets me when things that are public domain are hidden or suppressed. Anything that helps the hobby should be promoted.

 

Can't argue with your thoughts but think there are better things to use bandwidth for than promoting a ban that has no impact.

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We are a principled site....it may not have a great deal of impact...but we wont allow any posts or logs from that company.   We are proud to be on the right side this argument and debate.   Looking the other way and allowing folks to post logs from ZHL kits would be far worse. Good luck building the piece of crap kit you bought on Ebay.   The Model Ship Builder site does look the other way.  They couldnt care less who rips off a design or a kit.  They will allow you to post it.  That's immoral and just plain wrong in my opinion.   But that is what makes us different here.  I personally dont care if anyone should be offended by this decision.   Just saying!!!

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You don't even have to have a company producing items, I have personally been pirated for something completely different. It's nothing to do with this amazing website.

But I understand and recognize all the issues coming with a pirated item. Taking legal actions would had cost me so much I just let it go.

At the end the company taking my idea and pirated it, doesn't exists anymore nor the product. So at the end I feel like a winner, because they didn't know how my idea was to work. Think it hurt them more at the end than for me..... :P

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Please try to keep the thread from degenerating into a personal slagging match. The site will not back down on the issue so anyone arguing against is essentially wasting their time and effort. 

 

I should point out that should these banned manufacturers start appearing elsewhere in the site (i.e a link in your sig to a build by a banned manufacturer on another site or posting on another otherwise legal thread that 'I am working on a ....  kit shame this site wont let me post) then we will just ban.

 

Cheers all,

 

Joss.

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Funny how this comes up on a regular base, usually from members with little active posts ...

 

dnftt

 

Completly with Chuck!

 

Daniel

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I had a rant on here this morning, left it posted for couple of hours then deleted it, its a real shame that people cannot take a hint

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Some may buy, not having any idea that they have bought a pirated kit as a first wood kit and then find it wanting in quality and lacking complete instructions. They are probably upset about those things and the lack of support from the manufacture so they start looking around for help and find this site. Discouraging the act of knowingly purchasing pirated kits is a worthy cause, but what taste does it leave in the mouths of those who are innocent of intentional and knowingly buying a pirated kit who come here for help and advice. Perhaps helpful guidance and education would go further to getting the word out to more people than an outright ban. If there is knowledge of anyone intentionally purchasing a pirated kit and then wanting to be active with their build here, by all means ban them.

Not my decision to make. I have willingly agreed to abide by the rules of this site and have no wish to pursue this subject further.

jud

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Mark, while I will support the ban ,it is not on your say so. If the kits are junk then let the marketplace dictate their success or failure. But you raise an interesting topic. After scrolling through many members logs I can only find one whose work ( at least the photos ) are copyright. That would be Dirk ( Dubz ) from Hamburg. Exemplary work on his part and he is well justified in protecting his talent.  Cannot be said for the countless others that just put their work out there for anyone to grab and exploit. Was very taken aback when Mr. Passaro's practicum on his Confederacy could be downloaded in one minute and not a copyright to be seen.    Chris

 

Chris,

It's not "my say so"...it's a site policy just like some of the other policies in place. 

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i have lived in a world of rules and responsibilities all my life (having been in the armed forces)

i joined this group on the understanding of rules and i adhere to them, so why cannot others, to me these kits are banned and reasons given, what is so hard to understand 

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i have lived in a world of rules and responsibilities all my life (having been in the armed forces)

i joined this group on the understanding of rules and i adhere to them, so why cannot others, to me these kits are banned and reasons given, what is so hard to understand 

What I don't understand is that we have been given access to an invaluable resource FREE of charge started and run by people who's only interest is providing a place for like minded souls to gather, learn and enjoy each others work.

 

Yet some people feel they have a god given right to complain and argue about rules, policies and how the site is run.  I think you should see being a member here as a privilege not a right and as Kevin says these are the rules, follow them.  If you don't agree with the site's policies then perhaps best to move on.

 

I try to avoid these type of threads as they just put a dampener on my limited hobby time.

 

Slog

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