Chuck

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**Banned Kit Manufacturers on MSW - Pirated KITS Prohibited **

195 posts in this topic

I have asked some folks because I am far from being an expert on plastic kits.  So as soon as I hear back from these experts I will let you know.   The preliminary searches I have done dont turn up anything so it is looking pretty good that they are legit.

 

Chuck

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I think the situation with Chinese manufacturing of plastic kits is very different than the wood sides. Trumpeter is a major factor in the plastic kit area they use state of the art slide molding. They virtually own the 1/200 scale ship model market and their kits are high quality. I have never read that their kits were knock offs. The other factor that is different is that molds are sold legitimately to other companies. I will be very interested in what Chuck finds out.

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I believe this quote sums it up very clearly....

 

Dragon Models, Dragon, or DML as they are sometimes known, are one of the most respected manufacturers in the plastic hobby, next to the likes of Tamiya. Most certainly no pirated crap from them.

 

So this MFG is just fine!!!!  Enjoy the project.

 

Chuck

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Hello everyone,

 

I'm very new to this hobby and in fact I've just purchased a model ship (my first, link under) a few days ago from eBay at a price tag of 27 US$. I've not yet receive it so I've been educating myself on model ship building on forums. I started doing it so on reddit where someone told me about the MSW. Taking a look at the site I came across this post about banned kits.

Bottom line I just wanna to ask if the model that I've bought is one of this banned kits and why. Don't mean to upset you but I'm new to this hobby and also buying online was my only option, and sense I am in Portugal it's very tough to get kit from other sites rather than eBay or Amazon, and even on this sites anything that is not from Asia as an huge (I mean really huge) shipping cost.

An other topic can you tell me where to find like a modelshipbuilding 101 thread in where, please.

 

Thanks a lot, a sorry for anything.

Cheers.

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Yes indeed...you have bought a very poorly made pirated version of the Harvey kit.   The real authentic kit was developed by another company ARTESANIA LATINA,  from SPAIN.

 

I am sorry to be the one to tell you.  The owner of the Chinese company (ZHL) is well known here and pretty vile.  I am sure you can find a real kit version on EBAY or Amazon at a very reasonable price.

 

I would also add that as a new member entering the hobby you didnt do anything wrong.  Sites like ours just need to do a better job educating folks about them.  Unfortunately EBAY, Amazon and the like are not serious about removing them as sellers because nearly 30% of all good on Amazon are counterfeit according to reports by stopfakes.gov

 

 That is a lot of revenue and they really dont want to give it up.  But I see that you can return yours and I recommend that you do,  as building such a poor quality kit as your first will make the hobby much less enjoyable.

 

Its also sad that there are many forums that embrace ZHL and scam companies like this.  Many have embraced these crooks and not only welcome build logs but also rolled out the red carpet for Max from ZHL.  The biggest crook out there.  But they will do anything to get more than five posts per day.  So if you truly support what we are doing please feel free to voice your opinions on those other sites.  Many are members that were not allowed to post logs here ......  and support theft from the hard-working folks at companies you know and love including Ancre, Caldercraft, Amati, MSW, Artesania Latina, and many others.  

 

s-l1600 (2).jpg

 

ancre.jpg

For example....Any person that tells you the above was NOT stolen is not telling the truth....

I will repost the list of banned kit MFGs as this is a long topic and I want the list to be easier find.  And we are adding new ones all the time.

 

 

 

Please make note that no build logs from these MFGs will be allowed on Model Ship World

 


ZHL 
Snail Model 
JD Model 
LHQK 
ShiCheng 

woodenkit (RussianMFG)
YengFan 
Unicorn Model 
YQ 

CN

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I am glad you will Husky....many sites and people do not...:)

 

I would ask any of these folks to look Caldercraft in the eye and tell them they didnt steal this....they must have just liked there logo, LOL  I welcome any of them to tell me the same....or better yet since Max is a royal member of that site ...just ask him why he is using this logo on a kit he did not pirate.....what would he say?  My guess from reading that garbage is that they condone it pretty readily as nobody...not one had an issue with him.  Nor do they have the courage to simply ask him.

rippoff.jpg

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Bearing in mind the "NRG's MSW" banner under which we sail here, does the Nautical Research Guild hold (and publish) any official viewpoint on copyright/patent issues?

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indeed there is Brian...and it is one that I agree with 100%.   

 

 

Taken from another topic on copyright and it is the official NRG Policy.

 

Reminder....Official NRG/MSW Policy

 

Photos and plans etc. If you don't own it, or you didn't take the photo yourself........seek permission to post it.  

Or don't post it....  

 

Please give the photo owner credit and post where you got the image from....  If it has a watermark....don't post it unless you include a few words on how you have received permission to post it.

 

If you spot a post that looks like a copyright was violated...please report the post so a moderator can take a look at it. 

Please dont copy and paste photos from other sites without doing your due diligence first.

 

Thank You very much in advance.......repeat offenders will be warned....or worse

 

Kits/Plans/Parts:  If a company/individual is known to have pirated either plans or designs from another source in order to profit from the original authors work...stolen really.  Use of those plans, kits or parts is prohibited on MSW.  Promotion of those pirated plans and or kits and or companies that sell them is also prohibited.  No links may posted to sites that sell or promote pirated products unless approved by admin.

Thank You very much in advance.......repeat offenders will be warned....or worse

 

You can agree with it or not.....but please respect the rules adopted by the NRG and MSW.  When in doubt, contact admin or the NRG board of directors for clarity.  

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30 minutes ago, probablynot said:

Bearing in mind the "NRG's MSW" banner under which we sail here, does the Nautical Research Guild hold (and publish) any official viewpoint on copyright/patent issues?

Yes, Kurt Van Dam published it in Copyright Beware some time back. But it seems to have been lost during the upgrade .

 

Note to Kurt & Chuck - can you repair the lost post Kurt made on MSW Policy regarding Copyright - it was on the last page of "Copyright Beward" according to a search I just performed.

 

Update: Oh, never mind Chuck just reposted it here.

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Yes, the NRG has a position - posted below.    We take copyright matters very seriously. 

The moderators and Chuck are not doing anything against the Guild's position regarding copyright and the posting of such stuff here.

It is not the quality of a ripped off kit that is the issue - it is the fact that the intellectual property was stolen.  It's no different than somebody putting their name on a photographers work.  Maybe it's not a big deal elsewhere but in the US it is a serious matter - and very expensive when legal action is taken.  The NRG will always protect the rights of the creator and their wishes and not those of the profiteer. Members can have a different opinion but understand that all members not adhering to the policy and choosing to post or use copyrighted material obtained without proper compensation or permission from the authors...... will be warned and then finally banned if repeatedly in violation.

 

Kurt

 

 

 

Photos and plans etc. If you don't own it, or you didn't take the photo yourself........seek permission to post it.  

Or don't post it....  

 

Please give the photo owner credit and post where you got the image from....  If it has a watermark....don't post it unless you include a few words on how you have received permission to post it.

 

If you spot a post that looks like a copyright was violated...please report the post so a moderator can take a look at it. 

Please don't copy and paste photos from other sites without doing your due diligence first.

 

Thank You very much in advance.......repeat offenders will be warned....or worse

 

Kits/Plans/Parts:  If a company/individual is known to have pirated either plans or designs from another source in order to profit from the original authors work...stolen really.  Use of those plans, kits or parts is prohibited on MSW.  Promotion of those pirated plans and or kits and or companies that sell them is also prohibited.  No links may posted to sites that sell or promote pirated products unless approved by admin.

Thank You very much in advance.......repeat offenders will be warned...and if repeated banned.

 

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Again, it's not the quality of a ripped off / copied / stolen kit / book / photograph that is the issue - it is the fact that the intellectual property was stolen, so it will not be welcomed here.  Allowing it to be shown is promotion by the act of condoning it to be shown or discussed.  No problem if it's done elsewhere - just not here.

Chuck, Passer, MEDDO and 6 others like this

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I support the efforts of MSW to ban copied kits and will personally never buy one.  However, and it's likely been discussed before, how can a new comer to this hobby go onto Amazon or Ebay and compare kit prices.  They see a kit from say Model Shipways for $200 + $40 shipping or the "same" kit from XYZ Manufacturing for $25 including free shipping.  We here all know the difference, but the newby's have no idea.  It's a tough battle to fight and one that you will never likely win.

 

Luckily there are sites like MSW that "hopefully" most new builders will look for when starting their first build and eventually clue in to the pirated kits.  I would say that their second kit wouldn't be from a knockoff company. At the very least, you're definitely making a bite in their profits.

 

Luckily for me I found this site before I bought my first kit so didn't make that mistake, but I easily could have.

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I will just add my little bit.

If you want people to see a photo, provide a link to it and promote

the other persons site as well, I don't think that 

they will mind having extra visitors.

Cheers Chris

 

PS the new site looks great, and appears to be working very well.

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Gemma, it's just a touch of reality. It's incredibly time-consuming to police every single user post that might have a photo linked in it. It's not as hard to police a specific build log of a pirated kit. Given that this is a mostly volunteer organization, I'm fine with focusing the moderators/admins' efforts where they do the most good, i.e. suppressing pirated kits which are a guaranteed harm to the original designer, vs. suppressing linked photos which are only potentially a harm to the original photographer (since many people don't really care what happens to a photo they post on the internet).

 

Ideally MSW could police it all equally and be 100% in compliance with ethical standards, but that's not realistic. In the meantime, I see no hypocrisy in focusing on addressing/preventing the most egregious cases of copyright violation and showing good faith in that regard. It's my understanding that photograph owners have contacted MSW in the past about their work being used unfairly, and MSW has always responded right away by taking down the offending photo when notified. And a few particularly egregious members have been warned or even banned because they were so aggressive about violating copyright. That's as good as it's likely to get unless we all want to chip in and hire a full-time photo-ethics editor or hire a software person to rewrite the site's code so that every time you embedded a photo you had to check a box saying "I have permission to link this photo". Not a bad idea, actually, but not going to happen right away.

 

Quote

A classic example that is often discussed is the 'programmers dilemma' if they read a book on programming can they use the code? Or is it prevented by the copyright of the book?

 

This mis-represents the situation. I'm free to use code, or plans, or anything else I find in a book for my own use. I can build a model with someone else's plans if it's my own model. What I can't do is pass that code off as my own and sell it to other people (like in my own book on coding), or copy those plans and present them as my own original research. It's the difference between citation and plagiarism in scientific research. You can build on others' work, and you can cite their work in your own reports, but you can't take their work and reproduce it without significant alteration or unique contribution while passing it off as your own. It's really very simple: do the research to design your own unique kit, or pay the original designer a licensing fee to use their work. The only reason not to do one of those two things, if you're manufacturing kits, is to cheat. And that's why MSW is so strict about this. I fully support the way MSW and NRG handle this.

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21 minutes ago, GemmaJF said:

 

Derek, I enjoy your posts and think they are always considered. Your current build is Bluenose? Do some research, are there any kits of this ship that have official sanction of the original designer? A can of worms if ever there was one. 

 

No can of worms here.  

 

Read page four (4). 

http://www.modelexpo-online.com/images/docs/MS2130/MS2130-Bluenose_Canadian_Fishing_Schooner-Instructions.pdf

 

 

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Hey Gemma

 

I understand your argument and agree with you.  This is a subject of much debate and there is a passion on this forum dealing with it.

 

I have no idea what the answer is.  You make very valid arguments but Chuck does as well (and he is the one that was personally ripped off). I too am a photographer and understand copyright issues.  If I post a pic on the net then I use a resolution that doesn't print nicely.  Watermarks can easily be removed with Photoshop.

 

I think, like i previously said, that this issue will never be resolved.  It's a question of us against them.  Let's go back to examples of things like, say, photocopy machines. It used to be that if you wanted a copy made you would Xerox it.  Now a days most people wouldn't know that expression.  But there are several companies selling copy machines.

 

This is a huge problem that is over my head but obviously a great subject of debate.  I don't think any of us has an answer.

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Nice, Dee Dee. Precisely. M-E clearly documents the source material for the kit and the permissions they've been given to use all source materials. That's the difference.

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The NRG and myself do not pretend that what MSW/NRG established as a policy will solve the problem.  That is just crazy.  But we can do something, even if its just a little.  And that is to discourage the buying of this stuff from known offenders like ZHL.  It is to educate using facts.   Gemma, you can try and throw legit companies under the bus but you havent been part of the business for a long time like the NRG....like me.....we talk to these MFGs.  We know them.   I dont understand where you are going with this argument....but these companies are legit under the law.  Good kits and bad, unlike ZHL.   No Chinese prejudices.   We love Dragon plastic kits.  They are legit. 

 

The difference is that ZHL and Max are not legit.  It is a known fact.   I would never welcome him with open arms without even asking him why.....or Is it true....or for an explanation....or to put him up on a pedestal to set my site apart from others......    for the purpose of getting one or two members visiting or joining my site.   I am just saying,  find out the truth for yourself instead of trying to tear down legitimate folks that are at least doing some small part to protect original artists and designers.  We are NOT the bad guys here and feel very badly that some folks like you have bought these products without knowing.   Your new at this.   Its not your fault.   Others however buy the stuff even after they know the truth.  

 

You cant buy an Ancre book on Le Requin and say wow, this would make a great kit.   Take the Ancre plans and copy them so you can make all the parts....use the hand drawn illustrations by Boudriot and put them on the cover of your box and in your instructions and not call it stealing.  It would be like a major movie studio reading a Stephen King book and saying wow.....I am going to make this into a movie and make it exactly like the book without giving the author any acknowledgement or royalties.    It doesnt work that way.  You can try and find blurred lines with other companies and apples vs. oranges to rationalize.....but none of the legit guys would ever dream of doing what Max at ZHL has done.

 

So please dont try and legitimize what Max is doing.  Or try and compare any blurred small possible issues with other companies you know nothing about to make a comparison.  That is in fact what this other site is doing.  What those other members on that site were doing.   No questions asked.   Its just bad for the unsuspecting new folks who have yet to discover what he is about.  Here we educate.....and we have rules to discourage....some will hate us for it,  hate me for it.  But we will never welcome that practice fearing its too large to fix so lets ignore it and embrace it.     

 

That is just wrong.  But that site is celebrating MAX and ZHL and his practices while demeaning legitimate companies and organizations who choose to discourage and not embrace it.  Without even acknowledging the blatant and undeniable truth.   They cant even say the words.....its like they are trying to convince themselves and rationalize it all.  

 

No hard feelings towards you....once again....build your kit over there....but for heavens sake dont defend ZHL here when you just have no idea,   just ask MAX yourself.  I think you currently know the truth but now rationalize it somehow like many of the others.      

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7 hours ago, GemmaJF said:

 

Chuck it is difficult to respond when your posts undergo multiple edits. I think though the key to our differences is in your statement above.

 

The line 'Or promote their products here'.

 

I am not in the business of promoting anyone's products. If I post a build log in my mind there are three objectives. One to share what I do, because I like to do so, two if someone has the same kit they may find some helpful content in the build log, three it invites comments from other modelers that are generally helpful, occasionally life changing and always food for thought or just plain sociable.

 

There is no intention on my part to 'promote' a kit if I have no vested interest in it. If I did have this intention, I would say so under a company name. (As I have done a zillion times on other model forums)

 

You know also that you have my sympathy regarding your own material that was copied so am not "looking the other way".

 

However I do feel we need to be realistic regarding globalization and challenges it brings. It is not going away and our response to it should be measured and considered. Plain censorship does not meet this criteria.

 

Reading this thread the vast majority of posts stating "the stuff is crap" appears to be rhetoric on the part of posters who have not even seen or purchased one of the kits. I stated I had not read a review that said bad things regarding ZHL kits. Not that I had not read negative comments regarding their kits, both on this forum and as a 'ripple' effect on the internet which appear to have its roots here. Again I state the people making these statements generally do not appear to have either purchased a ZHL kit or built one.

 

Any way, we all have opinions. I have started on the pirate's rum so a good place to wish all well and hope that some resolution and common ground can be established. Both for the good of the hobby and all the wonderful people involved. 

 

PS I just noticed the admin edit of my signature. LOL fair dues. 

 

 

Gemma,

 

Yes, globalisation is here to stay, but would you like to find out that your cigarettes were cheap copies with bad chemicals in there, or that some warehouse down south was copying your daily bread and cutting the flour with cheaper and poorer ingredients. I somehow doubt it. What if you then found your iPhone actually slipped through the system and was in fact a Chinese copy, and had a dangerous battery or defective screen? You would put up with that in the name of globalisation?

 

Just because globalisation is here doesn't mean we need to embrace stuff that blatantly rips off another product, right down to their logos and drawings, let alone design.

 

 

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10 hours ago, Worldway said:

how can a new comer to this hobby go onto Amazon or Ebay and compare kit prices.  They see a kit from say Model Shipways for $200 + $40 shipping or the "same" kit from XYZ Manufacturing for $25 including free shipping.

 

Well, common sense will suffice. "There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

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I haven't seen this particular aspect mentioned.

Suppose there are 100 possible interested parties in a particular vessel.  This is enough to induce a company like Bluejacket or Model Shipways to bring out a kit.  They locate plan for that particular vessel at a private (non governmental, non public domain) source.  They are able to work a deal to use the plans for a commercial purpose, do the conversion from plans to 'hardgoods', work up instructions and produce the vessel as a kit.  Their total costs are $15,000 which they can amortize over a certain number of kits and make some profit.

Another company decides this would make a wonderful addition to their line of model ship kits.  They buy one kit, do all the copying of plans and set up their manufacturing machinery (or contract it out), finally being able to offer 'the same kit' for a third of what the original company can offer, their development cost being about $1,000.

The original company sells only a quarter of the number of kits needed to break even, since 75% of that 100 customers has bought a pirated kit on ebay or amazon  In Heaven's name, why would that original reputable company, which did everything right, continue to lose 75% on every kit they produce?  Well, they can't, and if the trend continues they'll soon go out of business and we'll have nothing left except to scratch build, and most on here don't seem to feel they are up to that challenge.  I guess we'll have to switch over to railroads or just go fishing.

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Sorry Gemma,

 

You can't be an apologist for pirated stuff, simply because the originator might not have the money to sue the pirate company and then say 'there is nothing to gripe about'. I can't even begin to believe that I have to reiterate this to anyone. Your pirate kit would never have existed without the initial work of the originator. 

 

Think about this...the more pirate stuff floats about (no pun), the bigger the disincentive there is for companies to risk any investment in new stuff. The result is that you have less to choose from, and that harms the hobby.

 

I doubtless think that you'll have some strange oblique answer to counter that argument, but this is becoming just that...an argument, and our position is that we will not tolerate build logs of rip-off products on MSW. Other sites may oblige you to boost their lacking content and low membership. We won't. If you want to build a pirate model, then MSW is not the place to do that. That is our decision, and irrespective of your own stance, it will not change ours. MSW/NRG staff create the rules here, and not members.

 

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I am a bit confused by all this but maybe someone can answer a question for me. I was about to buy a kit on ebay of a Royal Holland Yacht manufactured by a Chinese company. I have looked hard to see if any other company makes this model and I can find no other. My assumption therefore would be that it is not 'pirated' so, would I be able to do a build log on the forum ?

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Firstly, and for the avoidance of doubt, I accept and applaud the decision to ban build logs of pirated kits.

That more than one member/company has had their work stolen in this manner has been clearly demonstrated.

The discussion remains interesting if only to ensure that we do not (through ignorance) break the law or produce that which may be pirated.

I have taken professional advice on this matter and the information is, at best, inconclusive. Thus the clarity of the forum ban makes things easier for us all.

Of the three elements- copyright, patent and intellectual property rights- copyright is the oldest and relatively straightforward- you may not make copies of another's work nor pass it off as your own nor profit from either without permission of the copyright holder. Permission can be assumed. If you buy the book- "Plans and Instructions for the building of a model of the Cutty Sark" you are free to build (and sell) any model(s) that you make from this source.

Patent was the next to be introduced in law, and is unlikely to apply here as it used to protect a device or process hitherto unknown (or sufficiently developed to be new).  In the UK (I cannot speak for other countries) you apply for a patent and the decision to award such protection is made by officials, copyright you can do for yourself.

Intellectual property rights are the new kid on the block (introduced to cover all else not covered by copyright and patent) and not yet wholly enshrined in (UK again) law and regularly tested in the courts.

I'll repeat, the ban on pirated kits makes things clear to all.

I will write no more unless there is a demand to continue this aspect and permission to do so granted by Admin(s).

 

Ken

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2 minutes ago, Mike Dowling said:

I am a bit confused by all this but maybe someone can answer a question for me. I was about to buy a kit on ebay of a Royal Holland Yacht manufactured by a Chinese company. I have looked hard to see if any other company makes this model and I can find no other. My assumption therefore would be that it is not 'pirated' so, would I be able to do a build log on the forum ?

 

Ask on the main forum area. Someone here is bound to have an answer.

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