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How much space does White and Yellow glue take up.


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While building the 18th century long boat I was putting three pieces together that were 3/32nds wide.  When done they were more than 9/32nds wide.  I concluded that the majority of the problem was that the wood was not uniform and some portions along the 3/32nds sheet were wider than the others and that the two sheets of 3/32nds were not consistent with each other.  However, it got me to wondering how much space the white glue I was using was taking up.    After all, 1/64th of an inch in ship modeling can look like a mile sometimes.  Does anyone have any thoughts?

Phil Roach

Former Director, Nautical Research Guild

Member Shipmodeler's Guild Southwest Florida

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First off:  the glue space is determined by the clamping pressure used.

 

But, way back when 17th C. Naval Board style framing was first presented as

something we could do, the add-on effect of the glue space was speculated as

having a measurable effect, since the timbers meet continuously fore to aft.

 

Using a mechanical micrometer I measured the following:

Titebond II   0.001"

white PVA    0.0004"

liquid hide glue  -0.0013"  not sure how this came to be

 

The video instructions on the Gerstner & Sons site suggest that too much pressure

can produce a "glue starved" bond. If both surfaces are coated prior to the join,

with PVA, since it bonds by internal polymerization reaction, I do not see this as a problem.

With older glues, such as hide or casein this could be a problem.

NRG member 45 years

 

Current:  

HMS Centurion 1732 - 60-gun 4th rate - Navall Timber framing

HMS Beagle 1831 refiit  10-gun brig with a small mizzen - Navall (ish) Timber framing

The U.S. Ex. Ex. 1838-1842
Flying Fish 1838  pilot schooner -  framed - ready for stern timbers
Porpose II  1836  brigantine/brig - framed - ready for hawse and stern timbers
Vincennes  1825  Sloop-of-War  -  timbers assembled, need shaping
Peacock  1828  Sloop-of -War  -  timbers ready for assembly
Sea Gull  1838  pilot schooner -  timbers ready for assembly
Relief  1835  ship - timbers ready for assembly

Other

Portsmouth  1843  Sloop-of-War  -  timbers ready for assembly
Le Commerce de Marseilles  1788   118 cannons - framed

La Renommee 1744 Frigate - framed - ready for hawse and stern timbers

 

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Wood breathes... and you're in Florida.  Is humidity in the building area stable?    Are all the pieces out of "spec" by the same amount?  I also know that I can run 5 planks through my plank sander and they are never the same thickness.   Close but not exactly the same.   

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD           Triton Cross-Section   

 NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit                                                                            HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

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Well Mark, I follow your posts and have great respect for your talents and your attention to this site as a special contributor.  I have to disagree though, that wood does not 'breathe'; wood does not have lungs nor gills.  It does expand and contract with changes in humidity.  That expansion and contraction is extremely small but does affect the hull over its length, so special care is needed to avoid the adverse effects.  

 

For example, I made a wooden steam engine (approximately O scale) here in Connecticut and sent it to my granddaughter in El Paso TX.  The cab dried out and split several seams, which I could not properly fix.  I should have allowed for the contraction.  

 

Many old Admiralty models have cracks in their hulls due to shrinkage.  

 

So, use only well seasoned wood, never use wet planking and use lots of trunnels because the glue will eventually fail.          Duff

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Another factor to consider is that wood movement is greater across the grain than along it. That will affect any empirical measurements you might make.

Be sure to sign up for an epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series  http://trafalgar.tv

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Methinks Mark meant breathing as expanding and contracting??????

John Allen

 

Current builds HMS Victory-Mamoli

On deck

USS Tecumseh, CSS Hunley scratch build, Double hull Polynesian canoe (Holakea) scratch build

 

Finished

Waka Taua Maori War Canoe, Armed Launch-Panart, Diligence English Revenue Cutter-Marine  Model Co. 


 

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Yea, verily.  Humidity in the air and moisture from the usual wood glues both affect dimensional changes in wood pieces. Judicious application of the glues works well.

 

Just remember, neatness counts.

Ken

Started: MS Bounty Longboat,

On Hold:  Heinkel USS Choctaw paper

Down the road: Shipyard HMC Alert 1/96 paper, Mamoli Constitution Cross, MS USN Picket Boat #1

Scratchbuild: Echo Cross Section

 

Member Nautical Research Guild

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Sorry about the word choice, Richard.   

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD           Triton Cross-Section   

 NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit                                                                            HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

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That is really a small space that the glue takes up.  For my issue the past two weeks the vast majority of the issue(99.9996) must rest with wood.   As for my Florida Humidity, this model is being built inside my house were it is a constant 74 degrees with correspondingly low humidity.  I live in Southwest Florida.  I like my indoor weather.  For outside weather I do not invite it in.  I go outside for that.

Phil Roach

Former Director, Nautical Research Guild

Member Shipmodeler's Guild Southwest Florida

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Hey Mike, not to worry.  Many people use breathe when they mean expansion and contraction.

I guess I have some OCD about wood, but I also try to dispel misconceptions and incorrect information.  When I make mistakes, please correct me.   That is one of major strong points of this forum.          All the best.                   Duff

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12 minutes ago, Richard Griffith said:

When I make mistakes, please correct me.

I think you want Mark not Mike.:D:rolleyes:

 

Back to my corner now.

Lou

 

Build logs: Colonial sloop Providence 1/48th scale kit bashed from AL Independence

Currant builds:

Constructo Brigantine Sentinel (Union) (On hold)

Minicraft 1/350 Titanic (For the Admiral)

1/350 Heavy Cruiser USS Houston (Resin)

Currant research/scratchbuild:

Schooner USS Lanikai/Hermes

Non ship build log:

1/35th UH-1H Huey

 

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I actually read a paper or some kind of study some time ago. It showed that in response to changes in moisture, there were minimal dimensional changes in wood along the grain but very significant across, sometimes with changes in width up to 20%. Different species behave differently, wood database report this as "movement in service". Where I live there are dramatic differences in ambient moisture between summer and winter. In my previous home, all the nails in the walls were coming loose and the doors would not close during some months! Interestingly modified woods like akoya will not shift. As we use pieces that have a huge surface to volume ratio, I would expect they easily adjust to ambient moisture. 

Really PVA glue should not take any measurable space. 

 

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I tend to think that in a well-done glue-joint the glue does act more like a tenon between the two pieces of wood; it sort of keys into the surface roughness, while the high points touch. The glue should not form a separate layer between the pieces, as if you were glueing say two pieces of platic with a contact cement.

wefalck

 

panta rhei - Everything is in flux

 

 

M-et-M-72.jpg  Banner-AKHS-72.jpg  Banner-AAMM-72.jpg  ImagoOrbis-72.jpg
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I'm inclined to agree that residual water from the glue and ambient humidity changes would account for the dimensional changes.   I would suggest some testing.

 

1. Dry some pieces of stock in an oven at 225F until the weight is stable.  

2. Note the relative humidity in the shop, and try to keep it constant.

3.Glue some pieces together as you usually do, and then weigh and measure the pieces. 

4. Weigh the pieces daily until the weight and dimensions are stable.

5 Dry them again in the oven, then weigh and measure.  

 

This will give you some idea of how the glue and ambient relative humidity effect changes of dimensions.

 

I don't know if I published this pic in this forum of a 'shopbuilt humidity indicator', but here it is.  To demonstrate how extreme changes in humidity can adversely affect acoustic guitars, I glued a 1" width of crosscut elm to a 1" width of longrain mahogany with hide glue at 47% RH (about ideal RH for acoustic guitars).  Then I 'calibrated' it against a hygrometer over several seasons.  To my surprise, it's accurate enough for practical work in the shop.

 



 

hygrometer .jpg

Edited by Bob Blarney
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7 minutes ago, druxey said:

Bob: what a great idea: a bi-species hygrometer!

By the way - the elm is ~0.10" thick, and the mahogany is veneer - 0.024" I think.  The elm is quite lively and porous but is very resistant to splitting because of its interlocking grain, whereas the mahogany veneer is  stable.  Thus the mahogany constrains the expansion and contraction of the elm.  The hide glue is somewhat sensitive to humidity changes as well. 

 

As a side note, the elm is an offcut from my first guitar - made from a giant elm tree that grew in my front yard.

Edited by Bob Blarney
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No worries, Duff.  We're good.  My dad always used "breathe" in this context so it follows that I would.   

 

 

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD           Triton Cross-Section   

 NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit                                                                            HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

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