1683 Urca Derfflinger by Robert Lamba - Dikar - Scale 1:62 -

[robert Lamba]

This my 2nd thread on the same topic it was suggested it would be better if I move to the build log so I apologize for the double thread.-R

 

Only my 2nd wooden ship and with no experience at anything this complex and no instructions. I have the scale plans and some of the parts are sorted and identified but many are not. It's a giant 3D puzzle so I've a lot of questions so feel free to offer any advice or options.

 

To solve any puzzle you start with what you know and reduce the size of the puzzle a section at a time. The fewer unidentified pieces that remain the simpler the puzzle. The hull frame is assembled and partially planked, top decks are planked.

 

Today I began assembling the deck grates. There is one I can not identify nor can I find a clear picture on the web just one that's partially obscured. The obscured photo showed a corner of  partially lowered grate. The attached photo of the plans show a circle in the middle of a doted line square, what exactly am I looking at here? This is located on the forward deck. Here is a picture of a finished Derfflinger  it's also a Dikar like mine . you can see the lowered grate but that doesn't resemble what I see on the plan. My first thought was the galley may be under there and that the circular object is a smoke stack but there is nothing in my box of parts that resembles it, the parts list refers to it as 1A .  Should I stick to the plans or modify it as the builder of the ship above?

 

 

[robert Lamba]

The discussion we've had to now on the now abandoned  thread is the deck area in question is above the galley, the round circle could be the galley flue, but there is no flue in the partial parts list that I have.

It was suggested what I was seeing was an optical illusion or an obstruction. By clicking on the image I was able to zoom in and the grate(if that's the proper term) appears to have been lowered slightly below the deck level, but why? and why is the lowered grate not shown on the plans?

I searched for 1A and found an outline it on parts board, it's just a flat piece of material, no circular flue.

Searching some more I found the missing 1A!  Already in place inside the hull, it's the lower deck for the galley. It's difficult recalling where you put things 40 years ago 🙄. 

So the mystery is partially solved, I still don't have any idea what the circle represents, and why the other Derfflinger builder chose to install the grate slightly below deck?

[mtaylor]

The other topic is still there so you might keep an eye on it for answers and further discussion.  Sometimes multiple postings in a log and in a topical area are good especially for issues like this as more eyes should see it.

 

So it would seem that part 1A represents the "brick" base for the galley... so the question then would be fireplace or stove???  I'm betting the hole is either for the missing stack.  Below deck, the French used a steel plate over the top of the fireplace and still had a chimney.  A round hole indicates that it's probably a chimney.  I'd say do a chimney only since you don't know what the cooking place was.

 

The grate is lowered?   That seems strange as if anything they are either flush or raised.

 

BTW, here's a pic of the fireplaces for my model as a reference. The stacks are shown also.  They're from 1755 or later though and this particular ship had two units separately unlike many French ships that had them "back to back'.

 

  

 

[robert Lamba]

If you click on the image above it should enlarge. There are two halves to the grate opening with a supporting framework, so typically a full grate on each side. In the image it appears the grate on top is divided as well, the piece on the right still in it's frame and the left side below the grate frame. I don't know what to make of that.

 

You mention a steel plate, that would resemble the flue system we still use today. A collar of galvanized metal with the flue in the center, the collar isolating the flue from combustible material.

 

I'm going to open up the deck under the grate next and maybe get a better idea of how to proceed.

[ccoyle]

5 minutes ago, robert Lamba said:

A collar of galvanized metal with the flue in the center, the collar isolating the flue from combustible material.

This sounds like the correct explanation to me.

[robert Lamba]

Well the mystery of where part 1A went is solved I cut of the grate opening and 1A can be clearly seen below. A bit pointless having it there if a grate is cover is fully obscuring the opening below. I'll just paint it a flat black. Unless I can find a very small thin piece of copper for the the Flue collar I may use the soft metal from a wine bottle seal they're normally a steel grey, not sure what I'll use for a flue.

 

So Dikar has a lower deck for a place where I really didn't need one and then where there should be one at the bottom of a staircase to a lower deck there is none. Being very inexperienced 40 years ago that never occurred to me so now I have the pleasure of  maneuvering/fitting a lower deck up inside a partially planked hull.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[marktiedens]

Is it possible that it`s a knighthead for the lower yard halliard?  Some of the ships of this era had a knighthead fastened to the lower deck & passed through a hole in the upper deck - Vasa for example.  Those set-ups were usually offset to one side so as not to foul the stays.

 

Mark

Edited February 15, 2019 by marktiedens

[mtaylor]

I don't think they "galvanized" steel back then.  Stoves were either on a slab of iron or a layer of firebrick.  The chimneys were iron and black.  

[robert Lamba]

11 minutes ago, mtaylor said:

I don't think they "galvanized" steel back then.  Stoves were either on a slab of iron or a layer of firebrick.  The chimneys were iron and black.  

I only mentioned galvanized because that's what I'm familiar with. I have been looking for other examples from what was used in 1683 but no luck so far.

Iron is possible but that seems heavy for that application, tin, copper, brass or  bronze are all options.

[robert Lamba]

On 2/14/2019 at 10:11 PM, marktiedens said:

Is it possible that it`s a knighthead for the lower yard halliard?  Some of the ships of this era had a knighthead fastened to the lower deck & passed through a hole in the upper deck - Vasa for example.  Those set-ups were usually offset to one side so as not to foul the stays.

 

Mark

Thanks for the suggestion, I had to look up what a knighthead was. If you look at the plan I posted aren't there two just forward and offset either side of the area in question? Do you think there would be another on the lower deck?

[robert Lamba]

Assembled the stairs and fabricated a lower deck, stumped at the moment as to how I'm going to get it up inside the hull and glued at the correct height and angle to accept the stairs coming down.

 

 

[marktiedens]

Those 2 you mention hold the belaying pin racks & are used mostly for sail handling ropes & lifts for the yardarms(the ends of the yards). The one I`m referring to you can see in this picture of a Swedish ship from 1628.  The very large block has ropes going up to the mast head & fasten to the lower yard,holding it up.  If you have the rigging diagram,you should be able to see if this is the setup on your ship. The lower yards were very heavy,so very large blocks & heavy rope was needed to hold it up.

 

 

Mark

[robert Lamba]

I think you may right. I laid the rigging plans next to the deck plan and there is a large block pointing in the correct direction and the only thing there on the deck plan is the mystery circle and square.

I looked at other photos of Derfflinger by the other builder but has nothing there, it's possible he didn't know either as it's not on the plans.

So what do you make of the plans, how should I interpret that circle and dotted line square, what do they represent?

[marktiedens]

Well,I am far from an expert on rigging these old ships,but my best guess would be that the dotted square may indicate the item is below the level of the upper deck. I have no idea what the circle would represent. maybe some sort of decoration?  It was common back then to put some sort of decoration on top of the knightheads.  Would it be possible to contact Dikar to clarify exactly what it is?  They may have some instructions they can send you.  Does the parts list have a name next to the 1A designation?   It`s always been irritating to me that most kit plans have things that are poorly described - or not at all in your case. Do your plans have a side view showing the inside of the ship? Here`s a side view of the interior of a German ship of 1680 - the Friedrich Wilhelm -  it shows the knighthead mounted below the level of the upper deck(number 5 on the plan sheet).  Hope this helps.

 

 

 

Mark

 

 

 

 

[marktiedens]

.........and a top view of that same area - 

 

[robert Lamba]

Dikar has been gone for a long time so there's no one to contact.

There is no side view plan of ship interior and I as yet haven't found an unidentified part that resembles a knighthead. There a single knighthead for the rear mast.

I did finally did find a clear view of the opening,  on the side of the Dikar box🙄, it's very small picture I needed a magnifying glass, but sufficient enough to see there was no knighthead protruding. Whatever was used is invisible below the deck.

I'll need to fabricate a part, placing it securely below deck will not be easy nor will be attaching the rigging. An eye head screw would be simple and secure but not an aesthetically ideal solution.

 

[amateur]

All derflingers are build according to the same plan: a plan drawn by RolfHoeckel , a German wirter on historic ships. The plan is drawn somewhere around the forties, and is notquite historically accurate.

 

the internet is full of it (eg here https://www.westfriesmuseum.info/critical-look/ )

there is definitely a knighthead in that position,, just as Mark shows. Whatever Dikarmade f it,it is not a galley for sure: ships in that period had there galley amidships, and is was just a brick box, nothing fancy.

 

Jan

[marktiedens]

One thing you might try is contacting piratepete007 - he is writing prescriptive instructions for Euromodel kits,one of which is a derflinger.  He may have a good idea of what you have there.  He is a member of this forum & has been very helpful to me in the past.  He is located in Australia,so if you send him a personal message(PM),it may be a day or so to reply to you.

 

Mark

Edited February 17, 2019 by marktiedens

[robert Lamba]

4 hours ago, amateur said:

All derflingers are build according to the same plan: a plan drawn by RolfHoeckel , a German wirter on historic ships. The plan is drawn somewhere around the forties, and is notquite historically accurate.

 

the internet is full of it (eg here https://www.westfriesmuseum.info/critical-look/ )

there is definitely a knighthead in that position,, just as Mark shows. Whatever Dikarmade f it,it is not a galley for sure: ships in that period had there galley amidships, and is was just a brick box, nothing fancy.

 

Jan

thanks that leaves no doubt I'll have to bookmark that page for future reference

[robert Lamba]

Thanks Mark I'll get in contact with pirate pete and see what he can tell me.

[robert Lamba]

The knighthead is shown in this plan below the deck, reading some of piratepete's notes he extended them deep into the hull like the masts so as to be secure. Which is good plan but the two in my kit are deck mount, I could glue them to a longer shaft but that isn't going to any stronger than gluing directly to the deck.

Is there a super glue for wood? I could attempt two fabricate new longer knightheads, I'm not sure how that will go.

Accessing the knighthead below deck for rigging will be difficult to say the least, the hole to access it will only be 10x10mm. In the picture below just behind the mast is that a Knighthead, if it is then the builder either made an extended knighthead to bring up from the lower deck or he mounted the shorter knighthead that came with the kit onto the deck.

 

[robert Lamba]

I did't think making a longer knighthead was possible with the tools I have but my first attempt when better than expected. Here it is next to the the kit supplied version, it's a little crude but I wasn't expecting to succeed at all.

I'll take my time on the next attempt.

 

[marktiedens]

Hi - I have a couple of suggestions that may help.  As far as glueing items to the deck,drill a hole in the bottom of the item & glue in a brass pin. Then drill a hole in the deck where the item will go. The pin will strengthen the glue joint considerably. I usually use a brass pin 1mm in diameter. As far as rigging the knighthead,if it is at or below deck level,you can pre-rig it with the proper block before glueing it in place. Then you can glue the knighthead into position & just let the pre-rigged block lay on the deck until time to finish the rigging. As far as which glue,some people use wood glue & some use a medium viscosity super glue.

 

Mark

[robert Lamba]

Excellent suggestion on the pin in the knighthead as there still access to the deck from underneath I may have look at seeing if I can drive a pin through from underneath. Or glue a block under the deck drill a hole in it to fit the pin from above more giving it more surface area to be glued.

 

Leaving the knighthead on the lower deck unglued until the rigging stage, I'd considered the same but wasn't sure it was a good idea but now that you confirm what I was considering I'll do that as well. I'll leave the grate unglued as well since the rigging needs to pass through it.

 

thanks

R

[robert Lamba]

I added four filler blocks to both the bow and stern, checked the curves with my contour gauge, shimmed any low spots with balsa, filed and sanded them till they blended in with curvatures. Skimmed both ends with wood filler and sanded smooth. Then I checked both sides of stern and bow with my contour gauge again removing any high spots with a file and sanding stick.

 

A few little details to attend to below deck and I think I'm ready to finish planking.

[robert Lamba]

Studying at the hull wondering where to start planking I researched other postings and came across a couple that said I should rabbet the false keel for the planks to recess into and then be covered by the actual keel.

Well I don't have a false keel, the garboard for the most of it's length lies flat to the keel only at the bow and particularly the stern does it twist. How do I handle that?

In one picture I've drawn a curved line the width of the planks where the keel meets the hull, on the upper stern it's 90 degrees so planks would butt nicely except for 41mm between that vertical and the bottom keel. What should I do for that 41mm? Do I need to carve out a channel in the keel or can I just taper the planking to fit?

 

The second picture I drew an extended line for the garboard at the stern where it begins it's upward, do I have placement correct?

[robert Lamba]

I tapered and beveled the garboard but haven't bent or glued it down. In the picture I have the garboard where it will end on the bow, is it to far up? I'm not sure how to bring it lower other than to reduce it in it's entire length. I

 

I read elsewhere not end with less than half a plank, does that apply in this situation as well?

[vossiewulf]

That looks a little far up the stem to me. 

[robert Lamba]

I managed to shortened things up a bit on both ends, when compared to plans underneath it still seems a bit long. I'll experiment with some scrap pieces and see if I can get it shorter.

[vossiewulf]

That looks better.