Breech-loading swivel guns on armed longboat 1834

[tkay11]

I am considering whether to arm my 'armed' longboat of 1834, and while doing so I'm looking at the type of swivel guns used. In all the models of this I've seen a standard muzzle-loading swivel gun is depicted, as it is in the plans of M.Delacroix from which I am working. However, I was wondering whether this type of longboat might have used breech-loading swivel guns as these were popular at the time and provided more rapid fire than could the muzzle-loaders although they were less reliable.

 

So if there's anyone who's knowledgeable about this please do chip in with your opinions. It may be that I don't end up putting any armament on the longboat, but I'm still interested in the question as may others be when considering the type of swivel gun to use on their models.

 

The following is an illustration of a breech-loader that was put up on Pinterest by Brian Walters

 

 

Thanks

 

Tony

[wefalck]

To me that looks like a late 15th century swivvel gun. I don't recall seeing any such breech-loading guns in the early 19th century. The only 19th century guns that were loaded according to a similar principle that come my mind are the French mitrailleuses of the 1860s/70s.

[davyboy]

Hi Tony,I agree with wefalks comment. This pattern of swivel gun called Falconets were at least in English navy ships obsolete by the early 17th century. I would imagine the French navy was much the same.

 

Dave   

[druxey]

I agree that this style of gun was a very early one and abandoned, as Dave mentions, by the early 1600's.

[tkay11]

Thanks very much, druxey, dave and wefalck. Sorry for the delayed reply but I've been having surgery and am only just out.

 

All of you I know are far more knowledgeable than I am both in modelling and historical understanding, but I thought I'd let you know why I asked the question just in case there's a bit more to be said about it.

 

It all hinges on the definition or the practical usage of the word 'pierrier'.

 

All the french modellers who have posted logs have used the term 'pierrier' to refer to the swivel gun on this boat. All of the builds I have seen show muzzle-loading swivel guns.

 

I looked the word 'pierrier' up just out of interest and both English and French Wikipedias seem to suggest that the word 'pierrier' specifically refers to the a breech-loading swivel gun, and in addition suggested that this type of gun was used until the 19th Century.

 

I have no idea whether the French use 'pierrier' for both muzzle-loading and breech-loading swivel guns so perhaps someone could enlighten me on the French usage of this word. I personally haven't done any more detailed research on this yet, for example in discussions of French naval artillery. Perhaps I can do that during my recovery period while I have to avoid modelling.

 

The following is from the French site at https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierrier :

 

"Un pierrier est un canon, utilisé jusqu'au XIX^e siècle notamment sur les navires ou les canonnières, et qui lançait des boulets de pierre. Il pouvait également lancer des boulets de fers ou de la ferraille¹.

Un pierrier se charge par la culasse, au moyen de cartouches² ou boîtes."

 

In translation this is:

"A 'pierrier' is a canon, used until the 19th century mostly on ships or gunboats, which shot stone balls. It could equally shoot iron balls or shot. A 'pierrier' was loaded through the breech using cartridges or boxes."

Looking at drawings of breech-loading swivel guns I could see that there was a steady evolution of styles from the 15th century onwards and just picked one at random to indicate the style.

 

So I understand your answers about the breech-loading types may well be correct in that they were outdated by 1834. The suggestion that they were used 'until the 19th century' would be consistent with that if it means 'until 1800'.

 

The interest may therefore focus more on the word 'pierrier'.

 

Thanks for any further enlightenment!

 

Tony

[amateur]

The last breechloading gun the Dutch Rijksmuseum has in its collection is dated 'before 1740'. The others are muzzle loading, or much older.

 

Jan

Edited March 2, 2019 by amateur

[wefalck]

Cotgrave's French-English dictionary of 1672 notes that the term 'perrier' seems to be a corruption of 'pierrier'. Canon perrier describes a large caliber gun throwing stones. Perrier as such is translated with 'fowler', i.e. a gun used to hunt (water-)fowl. These guns were often breech-loading in order to be able to be loaded, when under cover. More modern dictionaries refer to the breech-loading variety as 'perrier à boîte', i.e. perrier with a can (the loading chamber). A perrier as such then is a plain swivvel-gun.

 

By the beginning of the 17th century 'perriers à boîte' went out of fashion largely, because they were balistically inefficient and sometime more dangerous to the gunners, than to the enemy. The chamber frame was a dangerous weakness at a time, when materials properties where not understood well enough.

 

Breech-loading guns only became a viable proposition, once the machining technology was advanced enough to produce parts with adequate tolerances and stronger materials, such as cast steel, became available around the middle of the 19th century.

[Roger Pellett]

A major problem with breech loading guns was obtaining an effective gas seal. In designing a pressure containing mechanical joint the designer must consider two different factors.  Containing the forces from pressure, and creating a seal to contain fluid leakage.  The wedged can technology might have been sufficient to withstand explosive forces from black powder  but would have leaked badly.  Although as Welfalk points out breech loading required precision machining, another advance for many calibers was the brass cartridge that would expand against the barrel.  German major caliber guns at Jutland used brass powder cartridges.  The Royal Navy used silk bagged ones, relying only on the machined screw threads at the breech for a seal.

 

Roger

Edited March 2, 2019 by Roger Pellett

[jud]

This is an interrupted thread Breech Plug. It is the Gas Check Pad that seals the Breech, it's protected and reinforced by the rings, Notice the cross section of the Mushroom, it moves rearward from chamber pressure because of the greater surface area, that means that if there is 50,000 pounds of chamber pressure against the face of the mushroom, there is nearly a 20 % larger force squeezing the Gas Check Pad forcing it out against the chamber walls, they are a heavy live rubber pad, it is that greater force than the chamber pressure that seals the breech, the passage being blocked, hot gasses don't act directly on the rings and pads to burn them. Good System, that is what the 8"55's aboard the Helena CA 75 used, was a GM in Turret 2. a couple of years, transferred up there from the 3"50's when I made E-4. Might be of interest, we fired those guns using 45-70 blanks sending a flame through the Stem and against the Black Powder ignition Pad sewn to the rear of the powder bags.     

Edited March 3, 2019 by jud

[tkay11]

Thanks a lot, Wefalck.

 

I had not thought of it before, but the derivation of 'pierrier' might more simply be from 'pierre' (i.e. 'stone' in English).  I am ashamed to say that I had not thought of that obvious link but your thought gave the clue.

 

It is clear that 'pierriers à boîte' (i.e. 'stone throwers with a box') refers definitively to the breech-loading swivel guns whilst 'pierrier' may well be the generic one for swivel guns.

 

The Wikipedia articles are therefore misleading in using the term 'pierrier' as referring only to those 'à boîte'.