HMS Bellerophon 1786 by AON – scale 1:64 – 74 gun 3rd Rate Man of War, Arrogant Class

[AON]

It was September 25th when I tore all the frames off back to the transom and filler pieces.

Today is January 28th and I have finally caught up and installed one frame beyond with another set glued together and drying.

It has been slow going.

 

The gunport has been cut out, filed to size, checked with my port gauge and will be filed to receive the timbers (upper and lower cills) to finish it off as soon as I get the mating frame in and they have had time to set.

Edited January 29, 2018 by AON

[cog]

Perfectionist ... Your redos do have an advantage for us watchers .... we can enjoy your craftmanship to the full. Looking rather spiffy ... and your are certainly not a "dead fish"

[mtaylor]

Redos are good, IMO.  You realize where you went wrong and usually end up fixing that one and others you didn't know about.   I'm looking forward to the rest of the frames now.  

[druxey]

Well (re)done, Alan! She is going to be a lovely model.

[SJSoane]

Hi Alan,

 

Looking nice! I remember just how slow it felt to be gluing on one frame after another, and the length of the hull looked so long in the unfinished part. The center frames were most tedious for me, because the shape was not changing much to make it interesting. And my frames were much less work than yours! It did seem to speed up towards the end, perhaps because one could sense that the end was near...

 

Mark

[druxey]

Yup, framing is a long game. No instant gratification, for sure!

[Mike Y]

Wait for it - the satisfaction you are going to get once the fairing is complete - is priceless!

[AON]

Thank you all for the encouragement.  After the slow go of it (too many irons in the fire... one being a four letter word - WORK), I welcome it all.

I try to concentrate on others claims , it is not a race; treat every part as a model.  I hope I never loose sight of those words.

As for fairing... dare I think of the time. It seems to be ages away but there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

I retire on November 30th so I like to think I'll have all the time in the world then.

But alas the retired fellas in the modelling club tell me I'm wrong.

 

Thank you for visiting.

[SJSoane]

Alan,

We will welcome you into the retired classes, starting the countdown to November...

Mark

[MEDDO]

Looking real good. (Retirement looking real good.  Only 6200 or so days to go...)

 

[AON]

It was a very busy weekend and I didn't get to put in the time on the ship I had thought I might.

 

After transferring/marking the four corners I filed and sanded one gunport.  Double checked it with my gauge which nearly slides in.  I fear if I work at it much more it might be too large.

 

I then worked at a trial for the gunport upper cill using a piece of scrap hemlock.  The height thickness is 6" (0.094" or 2.4 mm).  I cut the length a bit longer and then placed in on a strip of rough sand paper to hold it in place while I sanded it from above using a sanding stick, checking the thickness with my caliper as I went along.  I wasn't worried about it being exact thickness, having it a wee bit thicker is better than too thin.

 

I bevelled one end and it seemed to fit well but it could not be inserted because the piece was still too long.  I transferred/marked off the length and then sanded it down while bevelling.  I kept trying the fit until I had the length correct... but you can see the bevel is all wrong.

 

I need to work at this to get a better fitting cill.  Once I figure this out I have the joy of the lower cill.  I will not shaped the port gunport until I get this one figured out.

 

[AON]

getting better.

[druxey]

You can make life a little easier on yourself by fitting the toptimbers above the port after fitting the upper sill!

[AON]

That was my original plan but at the last MSoN meeting they suggested this method.  I forsee other cutting out issues at the moment and may flip back on the third set of gunports

[cog]

I personally wouldn't use the initial template, as with sawing and/or sanding it will never end up similar. You could make a trace, with a piece of paper and use that to cut and shape the sill ...

 

just a thought ...

[AON]

Good morning Carl.

I only use the template to check layout and check the gunport opening.

The cill is beveled slightly and checked for fit, sharpened a bit and checked again, and repeated.

Once it is close I mark off the length and start the bevel process on the other end, keeping the length a wee bit proud (too long).

When that seems correct then I shorten the length sanding at an angle and checking the fit very often.

Once I have that then I sand the thickness.

This last one was exactly 6" thick... I almost went too far.

[SJSoane]

Hi Alan,

 

I would either use a small adjustable bevel, or a card template (old manila file folders work well), to obtain the correct angle from the hull. Then you can transfer this to the cill to give you a pretty close idea of the angle you need to cut on the end of the cill.

I then use the following method for refining the first cut. Putting graphite paper between two surfaces you are trying to join or fair, squeezing tight, and pulling the paper out, gives a very clear indication of high points needing filing or sanding.

 

Sometimes I use small files to remove the high spots. Sometimes it is easier to use sandpaper mounted on a 12" X 12"  piece of plywood with 220 and 320 grit sandpaper spray mounted to it on either side. You gently slide small pieces of wood against this sandpaper to make small adjustments to sizes and angles. The advantage of moving the piece against a stationary sanding surface is that you are less likely to round the corners or edges as long as you keep "feeling" the flat of the wood. If you are having to adjust the bevel slightly, put pencil graphite on the surface and tilt the surface slightly for the first few passes, and then check to see if you are evening sanding the new adjusted bevel.

 

I find I can creep up on a fit very precisely this way, although it can be tedious. It is check and file, check and file, numerous times.

 

Your build is looking great!

 

Best wishes,

 

Mark

 

 

[garyshipwright]

Hi Allan.  Thought I would give you my way of how I did the gun ports on Alfred, which may help you and give you some ideally's that might help when it comes to getting your ports right. What I did with Alfred is completed all of her framing and sanded the hull to shape and made sure every thing was right with her framing. I just could not see cutting  out the gun ports as the framing was being put together. To me there is just to many varables to contend with in getting the ports just right from the stern to the stem. Once I was happy with her hull and she had the gun deck and main wales in place for strength, figure it was time to work on the ports and was worried about not getting them right. After marking off the upper  and lower  cills along the hull, I took a batten and pin it in place on those marks along the hull giving me the lay out of the cill's. You can also use the gun deck clamps to help in laying them out height was, but found that using the base board a better place to measure from. What I also did was put those battens lower by the thickness of the cill and then made up some planks to fit the spacing of the frames,and went from side to side that was the height of the port from the bottom cill to the top of the upper cill. You can also make the planks the size of the cills them self and use that to set on the battens to mark out you cills. Then one can mark the inside of the frame with a level line on both sides showing were the cills will lay. If this doesn't make sense let me know and I see what I can do to make is make sense. Hope this helps. Added a photo sir, hope it makes sense and forgive me for being long winded. Gary 

Edited February 5, 2018 by garyshipwright

[AON]

Mark and Gary,

Thank you for the suggestions.  I understand both... your explanations were very clear.

 

I find sanding on a stationary grit platform works well until the pieces get so small I start sanding my finger tips!

So I tried putting the tiny piece on the stationary grit and used a sanding board above.

Normally the small piece stays stationary if the bottom paper's grit is large enough to hold it and the sanding board above does all the work.

Some times the small piece rolls.  That is when it gets frustrating.  This happens with my tiny chocks that fit between frames as some are very thin.

 I've thought of trying double sided tape.

 

As soon as I started cutting out the gunport with one end open I started to worry about the top half breaking away.

My original idea was to assembly with a roughed in opening and then sand to a scribed line.

At least this way the gunport would be closed on four sides and better supported/stiffened.

I listened to people in our club that had some experience as I have none.

(Of course this was the day David Antscherl couldn't make the meeting)

It must have worked well for them, but leaves me worried every time I draw on the saw.

I had to go very very lightly.

 

I am committed with this method on this set and the one above but will revert to my original method on the next set to see if it is any better.

I really want to install the gunports as the timbers go up.

I will try the card stock method to get a better fit on the cill.

 

On another note.  The photo shows every deformity.

Looking at it in real life is a whole other story.  That last upper cill looks pretty darned good and I might keep it.

I'll work on the lower cill and see if I feel the same way by the weekend.

 

Edited February 5, 2018 by AON

[AON]

Well, it happened.

I made my lower cill (sill) and installed both upper and lower permanently.

Let the glue dry and set.

Shaped the next set of frames in readiness as they reach into the upper gunport opening (similarly to the lower opening) so when installed they will add support.

Then I carefully, very light strokes, sawed the frames for the upper gunport.

Cut through the first timber with out incident... the toptimbers snapped off with the next cut.

So, they are glued on and need to set before I attempt anything more.

I was going to take it to our club meeting tomorrow but I feel it is too delicate... particularly with the ice and more snow on it's way tomorrow.

Regardless, I am looking forward to the rope walk demo.

I will take it to the next meeting at Lee Valley Tools in Niagara Falls next month.

 

[druxey]

Um, maybe re-read post made by me last Sunday? See you tomorrow!

[Jaager]

With the ships that I have lofted, your port gauge would only work for the midship port.

The sills that I have worked with follow the angle of the deck.  The sides stay vertical but the

aft ports are higher on the after side and the fore ports are higher on the for side.

For my vessels the gauge would need to be a parallelogram and not an all right angle rectangle.

[AON]

Druxey

I understood your Sunday post clearly and planned to follow it (which was my original plan) once these four are done.

 

Are you suggesting that I should remove the installed frames that are chocked and glued, disassembling them, clean them, cut the ports, and then reassemble them?

This seems riskier than cutting one more upper gunport.

 

Looking forward to discussing this in person!

Alan

[AON]

Good evening Jaager

My aft gun ports are higher aft but the opening is square.  The draught I am looking at is a 2D image of a 3D object.  I read it to be a standard square opening with simple square port covers.  I have not seen one in real life so this is what I understood the frame draught to be showing me.

Alan

[Jaager]

The effect is subtle, but you may wish to investigate.  The decks followed the curve of the sheer - but

often not as extreme.  The guns would not be horizontal, so it makes sense that the sill would be in plane

with the gun traverse and not the horizon.

The door ways into the quarter galleries look to be horizontal.

[AON]

Good morning Jaager.

I have looked and see square and parallelogram shapes.  I believe the square is simplifying the ports.  I believe you are correct.

 

I could not understand how a parallelogram shaped port could swing open without binding.

Then I found the answer.

In The 74 Gun Ship, Volume 2, page 35 fig. 125 I found the following figure.

At the same time moments ago I received a private e-mail from Druxey explaining exactly the same thing!

 

The hinges are square to the vertical sides, not parallel to the skewed top.  You can see in the image that the left hinge is higher above the top to the cover than the right hinge.

 

I've looked and cannot seem to see how I might salvage my first ever gunport.  If I cannot, I will be tearing out four frames on the starboard side.  Having done it before (tearing frames out), I cannot say it is getting easier.

 

 

[druxey]

Not easier, perhaps, but quicker now!

[AON]

took them off

cleaned it up

walked away

Edited February 11, 2018 by AON

[druxey]

I feel your pain, Alan. Been there, done that - repeatedly. Tomorow is another day....

[AON]

Made (remade?) my frame: starboard 27 aft.  set it aside to dry and cure.

 

Worked on the port side gunport; filed the opening and installed the cills (sills).

 

I will prepare the new frame tomorrow (shape the chocks, sand to thickness, install the bolts) for installation, and I'll cut out the upper port side gunport.