Jump to content

Brook in the book "The Naval Cutter Alert" by P. Goodwin


Recommended Posts

Hello community,

the breeching rope in the drawing, it is imao guided very strange.
As it can be seen in the drawing, the rope is kinked during recoil and hence destroyed.

Is that right, or am I somehow blinkered

Source: "The Naval Cutter Alert"  1777 by Peter Goodwin 1991

 

post-3335-0-01043100-1392158319_thumb.jpg   post-3335-0-35710600-1392158331_thumb.jpg

 

 

post-3335-0-59129500-1392158343_thumb.jpg

 

 

The topic has been discussed in a German forum.
Unfortunately, no clear result.

Now, the suggestion was made to ask this question in the MSW with the hope, here to learn more.

cheers    :cheers:

 

Robert

 

 

And when the workaholic grabs me, I sit quietly in a corner and wait until the attack is over

 

Into dockyard:   HMY Royal Caroline 1749 made from Bone

                        74 Gun-ship 1781 (engl.) Admiralty Model M 1:50 by M. Stalkartt

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would think that most would run the breeching rope from front to rear instead as shown.  There might be a reason for it being done this way, however.

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD           Triton Cross-Section   

 NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit                                                                            HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think so too. But what reason there may be the rope to lead such art.
Or is it just plain wrong :angry:

cheers    :cheers:

 

Robert

 

 

And when the workaholic grabs me, I sit quietly in a corner and wait until the attack is over

 

Into dockyard:   HMY Royal Caroline 1749 made from Bone

                        74 Gun-ship 1781 (engl.) Admiralty Model M 1:50 by M. Stalkartt

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Robert,

 

I don't see anything wrong in the drawing. As far as I can see, the breech rope is naturally kinked, due to the gun's being in the 'run out' position. If you mean the way the rope is passed through the side ring, I can't see that as a problem either, as the ring is free to move with the rope on the recoil.

Kester

 

Current builds: Sherbourne (Caldercraft) scale – 1/64th;

 

Statsraad Lehmkuhl (half model) 1/8th" – 1'.

 

Victory Bow Section (Panart/Mantua) scale – 1/78th  (on hold).

 

Previous build: Bluenose ll (Billings) scale – 1/100th.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Robert,

The breech rope does appear that it will cause the rings to flip and jam the rope.  It  is also highly unlikely that  the running tackle on cannon on a cutter, would have a double and single block on each side.  Two singles on each side were the norm except on 32 pounders according to the History of British Sea Ordinance 1523 to 1875  Volume II,  by Adriana Caruana. 

 

Allan

PLEASE take 30 SECONDS and sign up for the epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series.   Click on http://trafalgar.tv   There is no cost other than the 30 seconds of your time.  THANK YOU

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Having a closer look at it again, I can see there is a discrepancy between the first drawing (where the side tackles are hooked over the breech rope) and the second (where they are hooked under), Surely the second is the right way? Probably a mental blip on the part of the artist, but probably not in reality!

Kester

 

Current builds: Sherbourne (Caldercraft) scale – 1/64th;

 

Statsraad Lehmkuhl (half model) 1/8th" – 1'.

 

Victory Bow Section (Panart/Mantua) scale – 1/78th  (on hold).

 

Previous build: Bluenose ll (Billings) scale – 1/100th.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Robert

 

The breeching rope certainly looks to be going through the breeching ringbolt the wrong way in the 1st image, in 'Anatomy of the Ship, The Frigate Dianna' the breeching rope is clearly shown going through the ring the other way.

 

And as Kester has pointed out the breeching rope would go over the gun tackle ring bolt as shown in the 2nd drawing not under it as depicted in the first drawing, if it went under, it would not only unnecessarily increase the strain in the rope and twist the ring bolt it could also flick the gun tackle out of the ring bolt with some force as the tackle is only hooked in, not shackled.

 

I think they are simply a couple of artists errors.

 

Mark D

 

Edit : Just had a look at 'Anatomy of the Ship, Endeavour', on the 4 pounder carriages illustrated there the breeching rope ring bolt is actually below the gun tackle ringbolt, presumably to get the guntackles up to a better working height. So in that situation the Breeching rope does run under the gun tackle.

Edited by Mark D

 

Mark D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My first impression was that the breech rope is too long. The recoil would be tremendous and the cannon could end up past the tackle that hauls the cannon midshipwards.

 

Then I noticed also that the breech rope goes under the tackle in one picture, as pointed out by others.

 

And third I agree that the breech rope goes through the ring the wrong way. The sudden jolt of the cannon would draw the rope tight from the back forward and flip the ring the wrong way.

In fact, there should not be a ring in the first place.

 

Here is a picture of what it looks like on the USS Constitution.

post-246-0-61184900-1392236967_thumb.jpg

Jay

 

Current build Cross Section USS Constitution  http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/10120-cross-section-forward-area-of-the-uss-constitution/

Finished USS Constitution:  http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/103-uss-constitution-by-modeler12/

 

'A picture is worth a  . . . . .'      More is better . . . .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Robert. Do believe that the breeching rope should  be going through the ring bolt the other way, so have to agree with the others, that the artest is just a tad wrong. Here is a photo of a page in Adrian B Caruana book, Volume 2, The age of the System, 1715-1815, which should set things right. Gary

post-264-0-24803900-1392251807_thumb.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello folks,
thanks for the prompt and extremely knowledgeable answers.

Until next time ............ :)

 

Have fun

cheers    :cheers:

 

Robert

 

 

And when the workaholic grabs me, I sit quietly in a corner and wait until the attack is over

 

Into dockyard:   HMY Royal Caroline 1749 made from Bone

                        74 Gun-ship 1781 (engl.) Admiralty Model M 1:50 by M. Stalkartt

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 years later...

I also think the rope goes the wrong way through the ring. I also question the use of that ring, which, in my humble opinion is more likely to be used for lifting the entire assembly, being suspiciously close to the apparent centre of gravity. Also, if you follow the line of the breeching rope, routed through that ring, then at full extension, then there would be an unwanted lift to the carriage, with the possibility of either the rope and or the ring parting!

Has anyone actually seen one of these guns fired, fully loaded with shot? The recoil is extremely violent, much more so than when fired with only a wad, during demonstrations for the tourist. It makes me laugh when this is shown in the movies, usually a big bang, a lot of smoke and the gun trundles backwards.

As far as the hoo haa about this feature, I think the artist may be forgiven, after all, his depiction is admirably very clear in all other respects.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The ring that the breech rope passes through prevents the rear trucks from inadvertently running over the breech rope during recoil. if this happened it would overset. Having the rope though it in this manner would stop it dropping slack between the button and the ring but like others have said, full force would be applied to this ring as the breech was fetched up tight. To reduce the force on this ring the breech ring in the bulwarks would have to be fixed above the front trucks, this would allow more force to pass through too the button of the cannon. The carronade, as shown in the constitution, was mounted on a slide so did not have the issue of the breech getting trapped under the trucks and as such did not need the ring.

 

The real problem here is that the tackle is both outside and lower than the breech rope. Great for traversing the piece but if just wanting to run it out most of the effort would be used against the other tackle and forcing the cannon trucks into the deck. It also looks that the bulwark fixings go into a belaying pin rack instead of through the planking and into one of the beams.

Also, remember you are probably going to want to remove the tackles before firing as you will only need the breech rope when the tackle bolts fail or rope snaps if you leave it in place.

Current Build(s):

  • H.M.S Diana 1794 - Caldercraft 1:64 Scale

 

Completed Builds:

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In my view there is a very common problem in many reference materials concerning the fall of tackles. (The Falls are those parts of the line between the blocks, neither the hauling end or the standing end but the “middle” that goes back and forth over the sheaves of the blocks. The person reaving the line through the blocks  has choices to make that will effect the legitimacy of the tackle. For instance where the hauling part of the line emerges from the final swallow on the last block will greatly effect its usefulness to the sailor. It will have no effect on a model with tackle that is never run, but there is usually only one “right way” to reave the line and many “wrong” ways, made more complex with addition of more sheaves and more falls.

those doing the illustrations of rigging details very often fail to be specific about the exact sequence of how line is rove through tackle. An example we’ve all likely dealt with are the multi-part purchases on spanker sheets.

this reaving confusion manifests very often in cannon tackle illustrations. The relation of the falls of the training tackle to the run of the breaching rope is depicted many different ways. I tend to believe that the breaching rope should be run entirely outboard and/or above the training tackle, not between the training tackle and the carriage. But when there is a ring through which the breaching rope passes on the side of the carriage you need to look at how the recoiling gun can foul the training tackle. If it’s run inside of the training tackle it could conceivably tear out the ring bolts securing the training tackle blocks to the carriage.much of this issue will turn on the exact location of the ringbolts on the bullwarks: how high they are mounted on the bullwarks in relation to the heights of the cascabel on the gun and the imaginary line representing the lead of the falls of the training tackle.

 

  

Quote

 

 Niagara USS Constitution 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What we realy need is for someone to set up and fire a real world 32lb long gun on an actual ship. With a powder charge calculated for maximum range.  I’m not sure anyone he’s done this with a full size gun firing a real solid shot in a hundred years. I know the Erie Maritime Museum has done this on land with smaller guns, there is video of this on YouTube. But I’m curious to see something realy big and powerful under at-sea conditions. Exactly how powerful is the recoil? How fast is the recoil of a gun of that weight, rolling on iron-shod wooden trucks on a wet slopping  deck on a rolling sea? Maybe it wouldnt recoil very fast or very far, due to the weight of the gun? Or is it more likely it’s going to jerk back with astonishing speed and violence? 

  

Quote

 

 Niagara USS Constitution 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fascinating informed debate.

It's so long ago now, I can't remember when I saw a tv documentary demonstrating the firing of a naval cannon. Part of the 'drama' was about proof firing the thing, I think the feature include actually re-manufacturing and testing the gun which was relatively small ('Bounty' size). When it was deemed safe, they aimed it at a substantial baulk of oak from about 50 yards. It went straight through, making a nice round entry hole but the other side was ripped to pieces, showing how dramatic the shower of splinters was. See attached photo, which I believe is displayed on HMS Victory. It looks remarkably like the one I saw on tv.

Given the data it would be possible to calculate the forces involved without even seeing a gun. 'It's all in the maths'. Like most things these days, that would be beyond me, I'm afraid.

Use sunscreen.

5984497388_5c440952e1_b.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/27/2018 at 5:41 AM, JerseyCity Frankie said:

What we realy need is for someone to set up and fire a real world 32lb long gun on an actual ship. With a powder charge calculated for maximum range.  I’m not sure anyone he’s done this with a full size gun firing a real solid shot in a hundred years. I know the Erie Maritime Museum has done this on land with smaller guns, there is video of this on YouTube. But I’m curious to see something realy big and powerful under at-sea conditions. Exactly how powerful is the recoil? How fast is the recoil of a gun of that weight, rolling on iron-shod wooden trucks on a wet slopping  deck on a rolling sea? Maybe it wouldnt recoil very fast or very far, due to the weight of the gun? Or is it more likely it’s going to jerk back with astonishing speed and violence? 

I recall there's also some video of firing a gun from the Vasa era.  A rather big brute but all things considered, the recoil wasn't that violent in that the gun didn't buck or jump... just rolled backwards.  There's also a video or two of a gun being fired in the desert (strange place) at a mockup of the Constitutions hull.  Yes, I'd love to see some video of a 32 lb gun.

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD           Triton Cross-Section   

 NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit                                                                            HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...