Martin W

HMS FLY by Martin W - Victory Models - 1/64

373 posts in this topic

Actually Spyglass the projection of my coamings above the deck is still too high even with the inset. According to the FFM it should be about 2mm at 1:48 and I'm at 2mm at 1:64. 

 

Martin the beauty of insetting, if done accurately, is that you get a very clean line to the coaming and it looks correct. You need to cut the planks back from the false deck cut outs to give the coaming a little ledge to fix to. Up to you of course - I note that B.E lays his on top of the planks rather than insetting them and who can question his results!!!

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Yes on reflection about 4 inches above the deck is about right which is roughly 2mm at 1:48

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Thanks for checking in, folks, and I appreciate both the likes and the advice. 

 

Alistair, I have studied your procedure at almost every step, since your log is nicely detailed.  And I've actually gone back and forth about whether to set the coamings in or lay them on top of the planking.  If I recall, on my previouis build I did the former.  I had originally planned on doing that again for thd Fly.  Then I started thinking about how I would probably need to cut a rabbet along the outside of the coaming frame so it would fit snuggly inside the planking with a bit of overlay.  No big deal, I suppose, since it wouldn't have to be terribly neat and I could do it with an x-acto.  But since I think there also needs to be a rabbet along the inside top to accommodate the grating, I felt a major spell of the lazies come over me.  More study is in order here, which is fine, since I'm still at the prototype stage.

 

There's also this personal detail:  I bought a micro mill that is now sitting in my workshop.  I should be able to knock out rabbets with it in a heartbeat.  But it's tool that requires practice and understanding.  So far, I've practiced, and have NO understanding. I have to admit to being a touch intimidated.

 

Spy -- Thanks for that photo.  I like the nice smooth lines you got on that coaming along with matching the curvature of the deck.  Do I see a slight chamfering along the outer edge as well?  I also have to say I like your deck.

 

But the issue of the height is still a bit foggy for me:  the athwartship pieces are supposed to have a curve, right?  at the peak of the curve they would be what, something like 2.5 mm?  then the sides would be a bit under 2 mm?

 

I'm now going to work out a second prototype, with the rabbet.

 

Till then,

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

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Hi Martin

I don't use a rabbet. I just butt the deck planks to the edge of the coaming. I set up the planks first and make the coaming fractionally larger than the set up. I then gently sand the coaming back until I get a really tight fit. I don't use a rabbet or ledges to support the grates either I just make that a super tight fit as well. I also have very little curvature on the coaming such that you couldn't even measure the difference between the high and low point. I know people put much more curvature on them. I'm not sure which is more correct.

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Hi Martin, I used 5mm starting depth for the head ledges and 3mm for the coamings as I recall; it was a conscious decision as I wanted to achieve a visible curve in the gratings without making them too thin on the outer edges which would create problems with them breaking up. The grating sit on a 1mm square ledge glued around the inside of the ledges/coamings; the head ledges were rounded down to meet the coamings and the gratings now in place were carefully sanded down to meet the round in the ledges. I think the head ledges finished up at around 3.5mm at the central point.

 

If you intend to have open hatches it is worthwhile gluing some square stock beneath the deck openings to represent the  hatch framings and give a little depth to the hatches.

 

Cheers,

 

B.E.

Martin W and aliluke like this

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Thanks for your deck compliment Martin.

 

That coaming/grating of mine is way over-curved only a teeny bit of sanding should be used for the deck curve - I now have to take out most of the bottom curve to fit!

 

One advantage of insetting is that you dont have to bother about the bottom edge - it sorts itself !

 

I do chamfer the top edge a little  but it is way over scale  I just like the little diagonal curve on the top corners that results - dont ask why its just my fancy!

 

I do curve athwartships a bit but that is a nightmare I found - it is so hard to do without chipping bits off the grating "teeth".

 

I did on my "lost log" try a few experiments in "bending" the grating to a slight curve.  Soak and clamping the completed grating didnt work too bad.

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Thanks for the comments, guys, these are all very helpful.  I spent about 3 hours last night just trying to think of how to measure a rabbet and still get the right dimensions for the joints etc.  I decided -- after butchering some nice boxwood -- that the aft hatch will probably sit atop the planking.  Now I've started the ladder way, which be without grating, of course.  My notion is to do all the coaming/ledges, and then do the gratings. 

 

Alistair -- the sanding process you describe sounds absolutely obvious; I'm shaking my head, saying, of course, why didn't I think of that?  Duh!  Did you sand that much before or after putting the grating in?  My little square keeps threatening to collapse whenever I work on it, so I would imagine that the grating would stiffen it.

 

BE -- I've checked out your hatches from the "Early Years" over on the other site.  They're simply gorgeous.  Hearing that you put that 1mm ledge around the inside answers a question I've been meaning to ask you.  Did you make your own grating, or use the kit's?  -- It would seem that the gratings would need to be sort of thick to get the curve you have, eh?

 

Spy -- I hadn't thought at all about actually bending the grating.  Hmm, that's something to consider.

 

Meanwhile -- the Missus mentioned that she couldn't see the lake any more, and I pointed out that it was because the brush had grown up.  After 3 minutes of silence, I slowly understood that she was describing the view but making a hint.  So my afternoon will be spent with a machete. 

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

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Just found a couple of bad pics of slightly mangled curved grating trial from the scrap box (not glued) - you can see that bending doesnt really open up the grid significantly as might be feared

 

post-905-0-51020700-1403379427.jpg

post-905-0-97275500-1403379427.jpg

 

Just soaked for a couple of hours and then clamped between two lathes bent to the required curve with g clamps

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Hi Martin

No I don't install the grating first when sanding the coaming to size. I don't have any problem with them breaking up as I find the corner box joint to be very strong. I'm not sure about the curvature thing. I asked Dan about it in his Vulture log and he reckons the curvature should be much greater than the deck camber. To my eye the flatter version with only a slight curvature looks better even if it is historically inaccurate....

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Hi Martin, I used the kit gratings.

 

Once I had got the round in the head ledges I was happy with I inserted the made up grating and and simply sanded it from the centre each side to match.

 

Here's a link to how the finished one for the Fore hatch looked.

 

http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/332-hms-pegasus-by-blue-ensign-victory-models-enhancing-the-kit-a-build-log-of-sorts/page-2

 

It doesn't really matter that it is too thick  because once in place it doesn't show.

 

Cheers,

 

B.E.

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Thanks again for the tips, everyone, they're helping me enormously.  The kit's gratings looked better that I had expected, so I decided to use them -- and they look good in everyone else's build as well.  They go together very easily, and they hold up under sanding much better than I'd expected.  Here's what I did.

 

post-1223-0-56067000-1403621035.jpg

First I just roughed out the frame of the coamings at about 3mm & head frames at about 5 mm.  I wanted to try to do the rounding -- and at this stage I am still thinking very much in terms of prototypes, seeing which procedure works best and looks best on my main deck.

 

post-1223-0-90934400-1403621205.jpg

I started sanding, and here you can see where I've gotten about a third of the way.  I began with 180 grit paper, laying it flat on the table and moving the head frames over it in a slight rocking motion.  I soon decided 180 was too, too aggressive, so switched to 220, and then 320.

 

post-1223-0-15456900-1403621317.jpg

Here's pretty much where I ended up (I still have to round off the corners, and sand the sides).  The sides (coamings) presented a bit of a problem here, since geometrically I couldn't get the grating to round down to the coaming, or the head rails to round down without also rounding off the edges of the coamings.  I got a tiny piece of 400 grit paper and lightly sanding the gratings to get them just about where I wanted.

 

post-1223-0-15849500-1403621575.jpg

Here's the piece in place:  this prototype is the "Lying atop the Planks" version; others will follow.  To get this one to fit the curve of the deck, I laid a piece of 320 grit paper on the deck, then slid the hatch back and forth to conform to the shape I wanted.

 

Tonight, I'll start on Prototype #2:  the "Fitting within the Planks" version.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

 

 

ccoyle, realworkingsailor and dafi like this

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Well, I didn't manage to work on Prototype #2 as planned (someone brought home a bushel of basel from the farmer's market, so I made pesto instead).

 

I did manage to put in some trenails.  This time the gods smiled on me (it must have been the pesto), and I got the Swiss pear down to #21 on the drawplate, which enabled me to use a 79 drillbit.

 

Here's how it looks:

 

post-1223-0-14797100-1403730815.jpg

 

I also want to say thanks for the link, BE.  I haven't looked at the early pages of your log on this site for a while.  These seem to have a few different details, which make me think I should spend some time looking them over.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

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Hi Martin

A couple of thoughts...

 

I don't think you want the grate to project above the coaming. This applies to the side of your grates. They should sit fully inside the coaming and the exposed edges of the grating on the sides is awkward.

 

If you can, try and set out and cut the gratings so you form a full frame at their perimeter. I managed this with all my main deck gratings but failed to so on the QD gratings. That was just the way they worked out and I think I had my eye off the ball a bit as well.

 

I'm still not convinced by the heavily curved grating and coaming versus a flatter version. I guess that is just a matter of taste.

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I hear what you're saying, Alistair.  At first -- in the mind's eye stage -- I thought curved lines would look good.  Last night, as I got down to working on the ladder way, the image of curved head rails began to seem out of place, at least for that particular opening & frame (if nothing else, a heightened frame to accommodate a curve would give something for busy sailors to trip over).

 

Your critique of the grating is also appreciated.  I got them to line up as a frame on the athwartships sides, but since I was thinking about curved lines and sanding utterly neglect to think about the for & aft lines (ie along the sides).  You're right that they look awkward, and I think that in a redo it will be an easy detail to correct.  Right now it's still just sitting there without glued permanence, so another version won't hurt me, especially while I still have the muscle memory of making this one.

 

But here's a question that came to me as I was beginning the ladderway.  First off, I notice that neither you nor BE has a ladder way on the main deck -- and I really only noticed that last night.  Next, I looked at the NMM plans, and they do show a ladder going down from the main deck to the lower deck.  BUT the entire series of ladders -- from the QD to the Main Deck and then to the Lower Deck -- is AFT of the Capstan, not fore as in this kit.  Probably all of you have already noticed that, but it surprised and puzzled me.

 

Hmmm.

 

Martin

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I'm not sure I follow your understanding of the Ladderways Martin. :unsure:

 

There is a ladderway at the fore end of the Upper deck, and another one behind the Capstan on the Upper deck both leading to the Lower deck. I have fitted the fore hatch ladder, but the aft hatch ladderway is covered by a grating, and I saw little point in fitting a ladder, particularly as the whole set up is covered by the Quarterdeck.

 

The ladderway from the Quarterdeck to the Upper deck is, as on the plans and the kit, forward of the Upper Capstan.

 

Regarding the coamings and head ledges; to finish those off the grating has to be removed, and to get the grating edges flush with the coamings they also have to have careful final shaping  out of the framing.

 

When I made up my hatchways I first  made the gratings to the closest full segments, and then built the framing around them. This avoids having those niggling little stubs sticking out of the edges.

 

Cheers,

 

B.E.

 

 

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Lovely work. I enjoy your attention to detail and can learn a lot from your build techniques. Many thanks.

 

Donny A

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Thanks for checking in, BE & Donny.  Your kind words are encouraging.

 

BE -- I've pretty much faced up to doing the aft hatch coaming & grating over again.  I think I have plenty of boxwood in this dimension, so a few mistakes and redos won't break the wood bank.

 

As for the relation of the captsan to the ladders, my NMM plans show the capstan pretty far forward, almost to the edge of the QD.  It, along with the ladders, are shown in red ink.  Right now my scanner doesn't seem to work with my new (unexcitingly new) computer, so I can't show you -- and am not even sure I would be legally able.  I only have the lines & profile, so the deck plans might show something different.  Here's a link to the plans in the NMM site, so perhaps you can bring your experience to bear in telling me what I'm not seeing:

 

http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/84458.html

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

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I've looked at the plans for Fly Martin, they are essentially the same as Pegasus.

 

As far as I can see the ladder way from the Qd down to the upper deck is forward of the capstan on the QD. The railings just forward of the Capstan can clearly be seen.

 

B.E.

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Och! BE -- I've just been staring at my plans (wait a minute, don't I have some work to do?), and here's what I understand:  the ladder from QD to the main deck is forward of the capstan, just as you say.  Then the ladders from the main deck to the lower deck and from there to the orlop (?) are aft of the capstan.  Yes? 

 

I hate to be a pill, but I've started worrying that I was seeing backwards.  In fact, I wasn't seeing the ladder from the QD.

 

Thanks for being patient, BE.

 

Martin

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That's how I see it Martin, although on my Pegasus the after hatch is battened down and covered by the grating.

 

ps: I have too many senior moments these days not to be patient.

 

Cheers B.E.

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I'm in full agreement with B.E. here Martin. I have also made the ladder at the fore end of the main deck just haven't installed it yet.

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Thanks for the input, Alistair.  When I get to the QD, I'll do my best to put the ladder where it belongs.  And in the meantime, maybe I should take an adult-education course in reading ships' plans.  :huh:

 

And thanks to everyone else for the likes.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

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Thanks for checking in, BE & Donny.  Your kind words are encouraging.

 

BE -- I've pretty much faced up to doing the aft hatch coaming & grating over again.  I think I have plenty of boxwood in this dimension, so a few mistakes and redos won't break the wood bank.

 

As for the relation of the captsan to the ladders, my NMM plans show the capstan pretty far forward, almost to the edge of the QD.  It, along with the ladders, are shown in red ink.  Right now my scanner doesn't seem to work with my new (unexcitingly new) computer, so I can't show you -- and am not even sure I would be legally able.  I only have the lines & profile, so the deck plans might show something different.  Here's a link to the plans in the NMM site, so perhaps you can bring your experience to bear in telling me what I'm not seeing:

 

http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/84458.html

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

 

Martin,

 

thanks for that very informative link to the Swan Class decks and interior, (here for HMS Fly) I wish I would have had that before I was planing the interior Fitting out of my Pegasus...

 

Nils

Martin W likes this

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Hi Folks -- Here is my latest effort with the hatches.

 

                    post-1223-0-74676800-1404505435.jpg

This shows all of them dry fitted into the openings.

 

                    post-1223-0-61401200-1404505491_thumb.jpg

And this is a close up of the foreward hatch.  You can see, Alistair, that I've taken your comments to heart, in that there is still a very slight curve to this, but so slight as to be almost imperceptible.

 

There are still some details that I'm not particularly thrilled about, for example I wonder if the corners might need just a little bit more rounding off.

 

Your comments have been most helpful, and so are more than welcome.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

 

(In previewing this posting, I see that my photos are anything but crisp.  I'll either have to get more light or a better camera!)

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Looks darn good to me Martin. I hardly rounded the corners at all. Just a little snip on the top leg of the box joint.

 

Are you putting a ladder in that fore hatch?

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Thanks for checking in, Alistair, and thanks for the likes, guys.

 

I hadn't planned on putting a ladder in this lower hatch, Alistair.  I thought I would only do ladders from the foc'sle & QD down to this deck.  After my utter confusion last week involving the aft ladders, I realized the aft hatch/ladderway actually sits atop the keel extension.  But your question is going to make me wonder now.  Hmmm, maybe I shouldn't rush into building the bulkheads just yet.  Everything is dry fitted, so I can always do them over.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

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Martin

Certainly that fore hatch is a ladder hatch. I've built one for it and that is how I will portray it. That is the only ladder I'll be showing from the main deck downwards. The aft most hatch is also a ladder hatch but I have put a grating in that one.

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Thanks for checking in, Scott.  This build isn't that much harder than the Rattlesnake, but it is different.

 

That's good info, Alistair -- I do have a ladder on hand that I built while waiting for my wood, so that would be a good use for it.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

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Martin,

 

What are all of marks on the decking for?  Not the lines, I get those, but the notes.

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