HMS Dragon build by Siggi52 - Scale 1:48, English 74 Gunner 1760

[Siggi52]

Hello,

 

the workers where busy and have already planked the deck and the walls. Today they have build the bench seat and the hood for the rudder at the stern of the upper gun deck.

 

Regards,

Siggi

 

[dgbot]

Fantastic build I enjoyed your log immensely.   What kind of woods are you using?

David B

[mtaylor]

Wow.. that crew has been busy.     

[SJSoane]

 

Siggi,

 

Very nice! good progress.

 

Mark

[Siggi52]

David, for most parts of the ship I used black alder, only for the carvings boxwood and for the decks pear. My turnings I made with maple, but the soft sort without curl. I tried for the bench boxwood and for the hood pear, but I think I would use for further panelings pear. 

 

 

Yes I'm busy, but the weather outside made it possible. It is wet, cold and often stormy, in my basement it is dry and warm 

 

Regards,

Siggi

[Siggi52]

Hello,

 

while I brewed yesterday a good stoud for the workers, they painted the back of the upper gun deck.

 

 

I build the door for the side galleries after the plan, it's in reality 1.35 m high! Behind that door it goes a real step down. It's only something for artist and nothing for me 

 

 

And because the gun deck is now ready, I made the official pictures. 

 

 

 

When I saw the first picture, there comes the question, what did you do against dust. 

 

Regards,

Siggi

 

[Jeronimo]

Hi Siggi,

very good work.

Karl

[druxey]

Lovely work, Siggi. You've trained your workers well. Prost!

[Siggi52]

Hello,

 

I could't see it any longer, this little door to the side gallery. First a picture of the plan with the door I build first. Here you could see also that the doors at the quarter deck are even smaller (25mm =1,20m). But these openings I build larger, I cut there the deck clamp because above is no cannon deck. At the Superb they cut the lover deck clamp and so I did now the same.

 

When I build this part of the ship, I had't these pictures. Here we can see, that even the original draughts not always right. At this plan the quarter deck has the lowest high after the orlop deck! The sheer plan shows the, I think, correct highs of all decks. But before I realized that, I had cut the cannon ports.  At last, the shipwright had to build a ship that was functional.

 

 

 

So with sharp chisels and a saw blade I enlarged the openings and build a new door.

 

 

With these two pictures I would show, that above is no more space to enlarge the openings. 

 

 

 

Regards,

Siggi

[Siggi52]

Hello,

 

I need some help from the experts. When looking at Lavery's plan for the wardroom in his Bellona book, it's looking quiet easy. In reality it is't so.

 

When I arrange the cannons as usual, it would look so:

 

 

The large paper in the middle is the pantry, the small stripe the bulwark and the scribing on it , the doors.

 

 

Lavery had the muzzles of the cannons within the gun ports. That would look so:

 

 

I arrange the pictures so that you could better see the difference. The small wood stripes are the outline of the cabins.

 

 

When I lower the cannon muzzles down, I could earn 5 mm/ 25 cm more. But also then is the passage between the pantry and the cabin only 75 cm in reality. The smallest part of the open space would be nearly 2,60 m wide. There is just enough space for a table and benches on both sides. 

 

What I did't like on these two versions is, that the cannon muzzles rest against the port lids.

 

 

Or did they store the cannons at the walls? But then is there no more space in the cabins. It is't very high there under the beams. 

 

 

The cabin in front of the bulwark at Lavery's plan I would skip. I think Lavery used the decks plan and did't think about the fact, that the walls there rapidly go inside. Also is the decks plan at the bulwark 10 mm broader then my ship and also the body plan and so Lavery's plan. 

 

Many thanks in advance,

Siggi

 

 

 

 

[druxey]

Usually the guns would be secured with the muzzles hard up against the deck clamps, just above the port openings. (The quoins would be removed to do this.)

[Siggi52]

Hello Druxey, that is the version in the first two pictures. But then you would have only 50 cm between the cannon and the pantry and the doors are useless because the cabin would close the way. The space between the last two cannons would be c. 2 m! 

 

That is the dilemma.

 

Siggi

[druxey]

Perhaps shorter cannon of the same calibre were used?

[SJSoane]

 

Siggi,

 

You are certainly finding the complications many steps ahead of me!

 

My first thought is that the cabin panels would be removed during a battle, so the clearance when the guns are run inboard would not matter, assuming the pantry panels would have been removed.

 

So then there is the problem of when the guns are stowed as druxey described, and the third gun from the stern is mostly blocking the door to the cabin. I seem to recall that the Bellona/Dragon drawings show the doors swinging forward, not astern, and so the outer door of each pair would indeed hit the gun. Could it be that only the inner door of the two would be used, leaving the outer door for decoration (like many french doors on houses, one uses one while leaving the other closed)?

 

And then the final puzzle is the short distance between the two sternmost guns. It does not look like a lot of room for recoil if they had to fire both broadsides at once!

 

I think I read somewhere that the shorter guns were used one deck up, but druxey's question is worth looking into. Something does not quite fit here!

 

Best wishes,

 

Mark

[Siggi52]

Hello,

 

Druxey, there are only 18 pounders of 9 feet recorded (Lavery, for 1761 and 1812). The 12 pounders have a long and short version. What I'm puzzle about, what have corner stones (quoins) to do with cannons or cannon ports? Or did you mean tampions (a wooden stopper for the muzzle of a gun).

 

Mark, there would be enough space for firing the cannons. They where allowed to roll so far back, that the muzzle would be 50 cm inside of the ship and then also the last cannons would't meet in the middle. 

 

That the bulwark and even the pantry, in the case of a fight, would be stowed in the cellar is not the question. The question is, how did they arrange the cabins and cannons when not fighting. 

 

The doors are swinging backwards and I don't think that they build doors just for the optic. Some ships have doors only at one side. The only solution is the version in the last picture. The cannons where stored along the walls. Then you could stretch the canvas walls for the cabins and could use both doors. 

 

I worked a little this morning. The highs are not to scale, but you can see that even a cod (1,90 m long) find place in this arrangement. And most important, the officers could dine and party with enough space   

 

 

 

Robin, many thanks for this hint. But it says nothing to this problem, except that there is no rule when the weather is rough.

 

So the question remains, how did they handle that? And when they did it as I think, how did they secure the cannons?

 

Regards,

Siggi

 

[druxey]

The quoin is the wedge under the rear of the cannon, Siggi.

 

There were 18 pounder guns cast to the Blomefield pattern that were 8' 0" long, but only after 1787, so that isn't the answer, now that I looked it up!

[SJSoane]

 

Siggi,

 

Your study shows without a doubt that the men lived very, very closely with the guns, the main purpose of their activities!

 

Have you made a paper layout of the table and benches in the center? It would be interesting to see how much space is between the back of the benches and the guns.

 

Mark

[Siggi52]

Mark, the pantry is 2 m broad and Robin, I have bookmarked the side.

 

Siggi

[Siggi52]

Hello, Mark you wanted a picture with the table and benches. So over the weekend I build them.

 

At picture one you could see the version the french used after Jean Boudriot. They run the cannons out and closed the port with two half port who had a hole for the cannon in the middle. 

 

 

And so it would look with the guns stored in there normal position with the muzzles against the upper sill of the gun port. The white paper stripes are the wings of the doors. You see there is not much room to go between the cannons and the pantry. When then also the canvas for the cabins is there stretched out, you could go only sidewards and the door is blocked!

 

 

And that is my solution for this case. The cannons are stored sidewards agains the walls. Then the cabins are large enough and you could walk normal into the ward room. Also for the table and benches is enough space to walk around them. 

 

 

 

 

I'm searched the whole weekend, but could't find anything about this case. So, if there is someone who knows more about this, your answer is welcome. 

 

Regards,

Siggi

[Siggi52]

Hello,

 

now the beams for the quarter deck are ready and at there place.

 

 

 

 

When I'm right, there are no carlings and ledges to be build for the quarter deck.  But a lot of knees

In the NMM I saw, that here stanchions are only under every second beam. Is there a special order under which? 

 

And the great question with the cannons is not solved till now. Did really no one knows anything about this? 

 

At least I'm building as I think it could have been. An other question in this case is, did they store the accessories for the cannons also in the cabins, or in the hold?

 

Many thanks in advance,

Siggi

[cog]

Siggi

 

I googled for you and went through the books I have which could possibly have an answer, but unfortunately ... nothing. We need a jump back into time and have alook for ourselves it seems.

[Siggi52]

Thank you Carl, Goggle must be red hot, because I searched also for the last days. I found also some more old books online, but nothing to the interior. 

 

What I'm wondering about this and other things is, there must exist photos of these ships, not from the 1760th but from the 1800th. I saw photos from ships as early as 1861 under full sails! Did no one take pictures of the inside? The captain and his staff in gala &c. And all these training ships for the youth. Did no one made a picture. I saw some, but all on deck. 

 

Regards,

Siggi

[druxey]

I suppose with limited light, slow exposure plates and before flash photography, it would have been impossible to take a good photo of the interior of a ship.

[cog]

I suppose with limited light, slow exposure plates and before flash photography, it would have been impossible to take a good photo of the interior of a ship.

That and maybe they didn't want to show off the spacious quarters the officers and crew lived in ...

 

On the other hand, you might try the British naval history museum ...

[SJSoane]

 

Hi Siggi,

 

I am starting to think about how to paint my gun carriages, and thinking about whether I should paint the wheels or leave them natural. I see you painted both the carriage and the wheels, and it looks quite good. Did you see some contemporary models with the wheels colored, or did you just decide to do this because it looks good?

 

Best wishes,

 

Mark

[Siggi52]

Good morning Mark,

 

I think they panted all things. I'm working in this case mostly after this model of the Royal George.

 

 

At this model they painted the running surfaces of the wheels black. I don't think that this are iron hoopes, but only for the optic effect, so I left it.

 

This picture is from the Medway, 1742. Here the wheels are painted brown.

 

 

This a ship from the 1720, all is painted brown.

 

 

I think that most of the models not always painted after the original ships. Best examples are the white stanchions, wheels and window frames, because they are made from bone. Many parts made from brass, original made from iron and therefore painted black, are left in brass and so on.

 

In this case you have to make a decision if you would build a shipyard or original model. 

 

Because I do not really know what to do with the cannons, I'm working at the moment at the stanchions and gratings. 

 

Regards,

Siggi

Edited February 21, 2015 by Siggi52

[druxey]

Seagoing gun carriages did not have iron 'tires' on the trucks: this would have worn the decking rapidly. Only land-based fort guns had iron bands.

[SJSoane]

 

hi Siggi,

 

That model of the Royal George convinces me. I will follow you and paint carriage and wheels the same. Thanks!

 

Mark

[druxey]

Also note the pin rack in the mizzen chains on Medway!

[Siggi52]

Hello,

 

today I build only that stairway and this time without any trouble! The last time my table saw made trouble. Made in Germany is't anymore what it should be. Especially when you buy one without having a long meeting with your bank!

 

Because this is the stairway the lieutenants take when going to the captain, I made it a little more fancy.

 

 

 

Tomorrow I will go and buy more pear wood. The next thing would be then the bulwark and the pantry. 

 

Regards,

Siggi