CharlieZardoz

Frigate USS United States stern detail

107 posts in this topic

Ok that makes sense, and yeah I will scan the stern of plan proper and post it once I get a chance. Interesting to hear about the Constellation painting, do you have more info on it?

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1 hour ago, uss frolick said:

A stern with seven real windows, like I believe the USF United States had, has eight counter timbers, (interestingly like the USF Essex had following her 1809 rebuild). If you planked over windows numbered 1,3,5,7, and filled in the spaces between the counter timbers, then you would have the USF Guerriere/Potomac's stern. There is a postwar stern-view painting of the USF Constellation driving through a storm, which shows that she too was fitted with the Guerriere's stern.

 

Frigates with four windows were all either built, or later re-fitted, with round or elliptical sterns. 

 

As far as I recall, there were no refits with round or elliptical sterns, just the new-builds of the Brandywine-class (minus Potomac) and Congress.

 

I don't recall the painting of the frigate Constellation with the Guerriere stern. Which one was that?

 

EDIT: To illustrate what frolick is talking about, you can see the solid 1, 3, 5, and 7 windows here on that style of stern.

1406299292242.jpg

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The Constellation was alleged to have had her square stern replaced with an elliptical stern prior to her 1854 rebuild/replacement. Her 1829 sail plan is said to show this. 

 

The alluded to painting is now lost, but a photo of it appears in Evan Randolph's famous article on the Constellation in the old quarterly magazine The American Neptune. I'll see if I can find which one.

 

I believe William Dougherty was responsible for the Guerriere's stern. The first of the new 44-gun class, the 1814 Essex II/Columbia I, the 1829 Potomac, the 1812 rebuilt Constellation, and possibly even the 1809 rebuilt Essex I (eight new counter timbers listed by Fox), all got their new or rebuilt sterns in the Washington Navy Yard. You could call it the Dougherty Stern, or the Washington Navy Yard Stern.

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True... it was alleged.  As I understand it, they pulled the old one into the yard, and started tearing it apart.  The new one was started right next to it.  There was an edict from Congress on no new ships.  So.. the Navy cheated.  They used four (some say six) beams from the old one and called it a "rebuild".  The scantlings and dimensions are different.   
A good read about this is:  Fouled Anchors: The Constellation Question Answered (you'll need to Google for it).  A pretty fair summary is here:  http://www.comicbookbrain.com/a_uss_constellation_history.php

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Fouled Anchors: The Constellation Question Answered

This report indeed demolishes many of the specious arguments used to justify the contention that the vessel built in 1853 was the same vessel built in 1795.  The report concludes that some of the documents used in justification were forged or otherwise altered, and that the logical progression followed was flawed.

 

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Constellation Macedonian and John Adams were all obviously new designs with no relation to their predecessors however if not for the erroneous history Constellation would likely not still exist today. :)

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Certainly it's far sexier to be able to say 'the original 1795 frigate that was the first launched of the famous six frigates' than to say 'the last purely sailing frigate designed and launched by the US Navy in 1853'.

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53 minutes ago, jbshan said:

Certainly it's far sexier to be able to say 'the original 1795 frigate that was the first launched of the famous six frigates' than to say 'the last purely sailing frigate designed and launched by the US Navy in 1853'.

'last purely sailing /sloop/' ;)

 

The last sailing frigates launched were Santee and Sabine after that, and the last designed was the second Congress. I do vaguely remember mention of Constellation being specifically ordered as a sloop built to frigate dimensions, almost like a purpose-built alternative to the Cumberland-style razee.

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Ahhh, but if you correctly call it a sloop, you give up all your arguments that it is the original frigate.  P-)

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1 hour ago, jbshan said:

Ahhh, but if you correctly call it a sloop, you give up all your arguments that it is the original frigate.  P-)

Not necessarily, Cumberland and Macedonian (ii) were frigates and Independence a ship of the line, after all. They just argued it was a razee.

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Those folks didn't have a very warm and fuzzy relationship with the truth, so I guess anything goes.

And that's probably enough hijacking of the thread.

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Nah, it should be fine, just a related detour. Though now I wonder about United States being rebuilt. I imagine the main reason they didn't was because of the historical reasons, like Constitution. Though had they done that, we might not have gotten the CSS United States, which is just amusing.

 

With regards to sloops, as I recall Constitution was operated as a sloop in the era of the razeeing too, with her spar deck guns dismounted and a reduced crew. Even had a Commander in charge, instead of a Captain, if I recall correctly

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2 hours ago, uss frolick said:

Speaking of sloops, Talos, what's up with the John Adams reconstruction drawings? Hint, hint ... :)

Last I was messing with it I was drafting out the sail plan. I need to get with you and figure out the specifics you want and the thoughts you have on the first razee. The basic frigate side view is basically finished, minus the rigging of course.

 

I did get these done recently though. Most are self-explanatory, though the Floyd sloop is the design John Floyd did for the 1820s sloop competition that ended up with the Boston class. It was noticably larger than the final design, which took the bigger armament and stuffed it in a smaller hull. HMS Jupiter was for a write-up on 50-gunners I did elsewhere and I needed an illustration.

 

EDIT: Don't mean to hijack the thread though, sorry about that.

USS Brandywine Size Comparison.jpg

Floyd Sloop.jpg

HMS Jupiter.jpg

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I heard something about the United States being a favorite ship of some head of the Norfolk navyyard hence why she was given a quiet retirement prior to her capture. I doubt she would have been razed though if 1861 capture of norfolk and the whole ironclad debacle hadnt happend Id imagine Columbia and Raritan might have. No worries w hijacking those images above thats the Boston class and underneath the macedonia?

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Constitution wasn't razeed, they left her upperworks on, just didn't arm them. I haven't looked to see if United States was ever operated that way in that era too, which was what I was referring to.

 

Thanks. In the one with the Brandywine frigate at the top, that's HMS Macedonian underneath it, and St. Mary's below that. I took measurements from those photographs of the latter ship and drew up the spar deck she recieved as well. I only have one of the three final Boston class designs drawn so far, Barker's. I did Floyd's preliminary one just because of how different it is.

USS St Marys.jpg

Barker Sloop.jpg

Unnamed 14-Gun Schooner.jpg

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