ancre French Schooners (La Jacinthe Type): La Mutine and La Topaze by Gregor – 1:64 scale, 1823 / 1835

[allanyed]

Gregor

What was the real world overall length of the Jacinthe when rigged?  

Thanks

Allan

[Gregor]

The hull on deck measured 21 m, fully rigged from boom to boom the schooner totals about 37.5 m.

[aviaamator]

Great job!!! Do You have, Gregor, photos at the Assembly stage of taffrail?

Edited May 29, 2016 by aviaamator

[ofencer29350]

the real "recouvrance" will be an attract of the "BRESTparty" on july ,with  the "hermione" of course;

i will be there to enjoy it.

one day i had a  discus with the captain of the recouvrance and so i  had the honor to came aboard..

 

here is a link to have the best photos from it:

http://modelisme-naval-bois.lebonforum.com/t151-la-recouvrance

[Gregor]

Oh, how I envy you - I try to imagine the feeling of standing on a schooner's gently moving deck...! At least, I possess a book about the first voyages of La Recouvrance (Carnets de bord), which I'm reading slowly, with the help of a dictionary.

 

For the transom, as described I used the simplified method I learned with the Sherbourne kit (cutters and schooners are close relatives, after all). Maybe these images help? Enjoy.

 

 

 

 

Gregor

[ofencer29350]

I came back from the court and in passing the recouvrance was amarée for works on the quay of the construction sites of the guip, then I stopped...

[juhu]

Hi Gregor,

very nice progress. 2questions:

 

1. how do you make the "seats of ease" located fore? I assume there shall be also some holes through the bulwarks? I cannot imagine how it shall look like - I assume that the schooner sides may had then occasionally some not so nice "decoration", while there is no "overhang" as for the officer's seat....

 

2. How do you interpret this strange railing sitting on the top of the bulwark? - looks like some carved thin wooden rail tapered towards fore and aft. I cannot imagine what it was good for and why on plans it is carved only from inside! It looks like some addition to the bulwarks, but does not seem to have the same thickness

 

 

 

juraj

Edited June 6, 2016 by juhu

[Gregor]

Hi Juraj

 

1. I don't think there were seats of ease for the ratings. They had to relieve themselves over board; probably from the fore chains (there are reasons why these ships had smelly bilges). As was explained to me in a French forum, some French ships even had holes in the chains for that purpose. Alas, these schooners had nothing of the sort. The small lead basins (no. 36 in the plan) are there to store small equipment.

 

2. The basic open layout of the Jacinthe type schooners guarantees for a wet experience. Also, the bulwarks are relatively low, affording not much protection. That's why the Topaze has an additional line over the (almost closed up) bulwark. The Mutine's bulwark was built even sturdier and a little higher, with an additional plank set on the capping rail. On the inside, it was decorated in neoclassical style with an elaborate Greek pattern very much in fashion at the time. Most contemporary models of French ships show a simpler decoration with diamonds (rhomb) on the inside of the bulwarks. You can find this diamond pattern decoration also on La Recouvrance.

 

The capping rails and the additional plank have to wait till I have finished the catheads:

 

 

 

Gregor

[Mirabell61]

beautiful pair of schooners Gregor,

 

very nice work all the way....

 

Nils

[juhu]

Hi Juraj

 

1. I don't think there were seats of ease for the ratings. They had to relieve themselves over board; probably from the fore chains (there are reasons why these ships had smelly bilges). As was explained to me in a French forum, some French ships even had holes in the chains for that purpose. Alas, these schooners had nothing of the sort. The small lead basins (no. 36 in the plan) are there to store small equipment.

 

Hi Gregor, thanks for the answers, I accept the one for my Question  2, but for the first question, I am confused:

I do not speak French, have not read the description for the item 36 on the plans. But if you check the Monography La Jacinthe by Ancre, on p. 25, where La Mutine is described  (I have purchased English version)  you read :

"... Modest improvements to the comfort of the crew in the form of lead-lined latrines abaft the catheads, and on the starboard side aft a seat of ease for the officers..."

So if you are right, then the La Jacinthe monography is wrong (or vice - versa?)

Juraj

Edited June 6, 2016 by juhu

[Gregor]

Oh, Juraj, my mistake: "36. Bassins de plomb pour l'équpage" translates correctly into "basins for the crew". So we have to find a solution for the plumbing. There will be a hole somewhere between the deck and the basin...

 

 

 

Gregor

 

 

[Gregor]

It's a rainy weekend, and I'm still working on the railing caps. As you can see, the two sisters are slowly growing apart.

 

 

 

 

 

Enjoy,

Gregor

[aviaamator]

Two beauties!

[albert]

Wonderful work, very nice.

[mtaylor]

Beautiful work on both, Gregor.  I don't know how you can build two at once as one is pretty much my limit.   I'm in awe.

[Gregor]

Many thanks for all the support! I often doubt my decision to build the two schooners simultaneously. But you can view it from different sides: On the one hand, it's the price I have to pay for not being able to decide which one to build. It takes a little more time? It's my hobby.

 

On the other hand, they are so small I really don't have to decide; I even have more choices. There are so many differences in the details to enjoy (I childishly wanted a steering wheel this time); and almost no mass production. Compared to a medium sized frigate, there is still less deck space to plank, and less hull surface to copper. Once you figure out how to build an element like a bulkhead pattern, you can use it on both hulls. And as only La Topaze will be fully rigged, I have only two masts to do instead of the frigate's three.

 

Of course, it's an additional effort; I'm often confused between the two. But if I hit a wall I can put one aside and favour the other for a while. It might be a bit crazy to do a fist time scratch build that way, but I learn a lot for an eventual future project (HMS Beagle is the dream of the moment). Even with all the flaws and errors I've made so far, I quite like them sitting on the desk as a pair, patiently waiting.

Cheers,

Gregor

[kees de mol]

Those are beautifull ship! Nice build

[juhu]

Hi Gregor,

while eagerly waiting for your progress on these beautiful ships, one basic question came to my mind:

If I remember correctly, originally you wanted to build La Jacinthe as one of those two.

Have you abandoned this idea in favor of Mutine/Topaz for some specific reason?

Did you find anything during the research that made La Jacinthe less interesting?

I think you just wrote something about the research and then changing your mind, but if possible, I would be very interested in what have you found (Just a blind guess: maybe she was never really built with her bulwarks open as depicted on the plan and Mutine and Topaz are more real ships then?)

Thanks

Juraj

[Gregor]

Well, progress has slowed down a bit. But you are correct; originally I wanted to build a Jacinthe as shown by Jean Boudriot, in natural wood finish. Sadly I came to realise that my woodworking skills are not up to the task. And despite having given the impression that building two sister ships is easy, there are moments of doubts.

My skill level was one reason for changing the plan. The other was my "discovery" of La Topaze by Bruno Orsel, a French modeller. His build log showed a thoroughly well researched model, based on experience and archival sources of the kind that doesn't exist any longer for the Jacinthe (they were destroyed in the last war). I was impressed; the switch was tempting and easy at that stage.

We don't know how the Jacinthe really looked like in real life or even what kind of rigging she had (Boudriot based his reconstruction on the small picture of the Mutine, as he wrote himself). But we can safely assume it would have been in the region of La Topaze or its contemporary La Recouvrance, to make it seaworthy.

What I learned while participating in a French forum was how the French naval authorities really sent out a standard plan to several dockyards, each to build two schooners. But the authorities kept a tight control over the basic design (see more here: http://modelisme-naval-bois.lebonforum.com/t3821-deux-goelettes-du-type-jacinthe-la-mutine-et-la-topaze-env-1830).

As long as the dockyards respected the design, they could add individual details according to local customs or special needs. If you compare the contemporary model of La Topaze in Bruno Orsel's build log (in the same forum) with Jean Boudriot’s Jacinthe, you can discover several discrepancies: the position of the pumps, or the fore hatch (which had to be before the mast according to the ministry's specification).

Things like these made the switch to Topaze very easy. But I would describe my "research" more as "corresponding with an expert". First result: Ripping out and replacing the pin rails in the Topaze; it's looking ugly at the moment…

Gregor

[juhu]

Thanks Gregor,

I can imagine that building two siblings might prove to be challenging - wish you good luck and would watch the progress.

 

Thanks for the link, I came across that french forum the other day, unfortunately, I cannot read it due to my language barrier

Still you confirmed my thoughts: La Jacinthe as portrayed in Boudriot Monography may be the simplest choice to build, but well possible it does not reflect the real ship overall look (Those open bulwarks made me suspicious from the beginning)

 

If possible, what is the knowledge status of La Mutine? Is the kept plan sufficient proof of her appearance or is La Topaze the only of the three that can be documented thoroughly? Thanks

 

J.

[Gregor]

I've built some small stuff, and tried out different methods for coppering the hulls. When drawing the planking pattern of the decks, I decided to follow in both schooners the pattern of La Topaze (based on the contemporary model in Paris. The plan of La Mutine shows more, even narrower planks). 

As a historian I have to deny that the plan of La Mutine is "proof" of her actual appearance. Proof would require corroboration sources, such as a "devis d'armement", a document that describes dimensions and details and is part of the contract with the builder. I don't know whether the archives of Lorient dockyards survived WWII, but that's where such a document would be. 

But I think it can reasonably be assumed that her appearance as shown in the Atlas du Génie maritime, an official publication, could pass the scrutiny of critical eyes at the time. There are details open to interpretation or even missing, but in general it should be correct representation of a schooner of its type. For my project, thats enough.

 

Here's what they are looking like at the moment:

 

 

 

 

 

The pattern on  the plank over Mutine's capping rail was laser printed after I found paper of the correct colour. As always, several attempts had to be made...

 

 

 

 

 

The copper tiles are made from self-adhesive copper tape. In France, they were bigger than in England or Holland, and in 1:64 they are 25 x 8 mm. On a french ship, you start at the stern a bit above the waterline.

Cheers,

Gregor

 

 

 

[albert]

Hi Gregor very very nice work.

[Gregor]

Finally, the coppering is done! One advantage of building two sister ships is that you can apply on the second hull what you have learnt on the first. You can see the difference between the Mutine and the Topaze, where I laid the tiles much more carefully.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry for the quality of my pictures - they were made with my old smartphone. Now the rudders have to be attached, an then I will be able to turn them around in an upright position again...

 

Cheers,

Gregor

[tkay11]

They both seem great to me!

 

Tony

[Gregor]

Thanks, Tony, you are kind. The important difference is that on Mutine's hull the tiles overlap (historically correct), but on the model this has a three-dimensional effect. On Topaze's hull, I put the tiles precisely along each other, so the copper skin is flatter and smoother. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[albert]

Very nice work.

[Mirabell61]

beautiful work Gregor,

 

Nils

[Gregor]

... then I'm glad I can offer more than one hull, to please the diverse tastes of my viewers!

Gregor

[Gregor]

With a bad conscience, finally an update on my project. It’s slow going anyway, but some headway was made.

After both hulls were coppered, I embarked on a small holyday project: the cutters. Jean Boudriot shows on his plans a cutter of 6.5 meters (“petit canot” in French). The maker of the Topaze model I’m copying in smaller scale proposed a smaller boat of 5.5 meters, based on his research. In French, it’s called “Youyou”, which translates in something like “little darling” or other nice things you would call a baby.

I even started by cutting out the bulkheads when I discovered a nice little kit, made in Russia by Falconet (http://www.falkonet.ru/boat2). It has exactly the dimensions of my Youyou, and very easy to build (excellent explanations with enough pictures so you don’t have to understand Russian, which I don’t). But this is a scratch building log, so I made a semi-scratch French Youyou out of a Russion cutter. A cut at the stem and an addition at the stern gives a new silhouette, new rudders were made, benches altered, and after some other small changes I had two French boats as used in the 19^th century.

The little kits, by the way, are cleverly done, the planks are laser cut and perfectly fitting, the pear wood in excellent quality.

 

That’s it for the moment, another entry will soon describe the planking of the decks.

 

Gregor

 

 

 

[tkay11]

Wonderful to see your work here again! Thanks for the update!

 

Tony