allanyed

Tennfox

As she was captured off Sandy Hook by the British, RMG might have some information as the British often took the lines of captures.   Perhaps Mystic has some helpful information.  Where were you able to find out about the number of lights (windows🙂) on the stern?  Could that source lead to more information?

Sounds like a fun research and build project!!!

Allan

Hi Dave,

If you referring to the Carronade from Caron and other private foundries I just  read a good bit of the chapter in Volume 2 of The History of English Sea Ordnance on these guns and can find no charts discussing the breeching rope sizes.  Sorry😕    There are a number of drawings that might be useful though.  The problem is that most of the drawings, while contemporary, the caliber is not given so the size of the gun and the bore are unknown.  A few do show the bore and the rope but I have no idea how accurate they are.    The bore to rope diameter ratio is from about  4.4  to 2  in diameter  to 3 to 1.   The length appears to be sufficient to allow the slide come inboard such that the muzzle is about a foot inboard of the bulkhead.

As to recoil, there were a lot of broken carriages in the early days and the slides were fiddled with, first to make them with less friction (defeating the purpose) and then going back to more friction, but not enough to cause wreckage on the recoil.  The carriage itself of course did not move, just the barrel on the slide.

There is an interesting section that describes non-recoil carriages which to me is a misnomer as the slides were inclined and the gun and slide rose up and inboard when fired.

Wish I had more info for you.

Allan

On 3/24/2024 at 7:49 AM, S.Coleman said:

As the decks on the original ship's sort of followed the lines of the hull.

Hi Scott

Are you speaking about the line of the hull planking?  If so the decks of galleons and even later vessels normally did not follow the lines of the hull. You can see the deck line on the plan below as well as the line of the hull planking via the wales.  The inboard profile below is from circa 1695 so a bit later than the San Francisco, but is hopefully a good example.  The deck lines are highlighted in red and follow the deck beams which can be seen on the plan while the hull planking is on a different line.  For the purposes of the cross section model, any curvature fore and aft midships would be barely noticeable at our scales.

Allan

3 hours ago, Wawona59 said:

They also would not be happy with the inaccurate fittings and oversized belaying pins.

Seems they follow a theme in this regard.  The other offerings you mention have shown these problems are not without solutions.   

Allan

17 hours ago, DaveBaxt said:

I just wonder at 1/64 scale would the difference of 1/2" make any difference but then again may as well get it spot on.

Dave,

I doubt anyone will notice, but as a rule, many builders feel it is better to err by being a little too small rather than too large.  1/2" is about 0.2mm and the human eye can see the difference of about 0.1mm (if next to each other)

17 hours ago, DaveBaxt said:

Unfortunately measuring the bore would probably not be very accurate, so where could I find the Calibar of the gun to work out the circumference/ diameter of the rope. 

Diameter/Caliber - I believe the Artois class carried 18 pounders and 9 pounders so the bore diameters would be about 5.25" and 4.25"  The chart on the following site might be a little help for diameter of the shot.  It shows shot diameter and bore diameter.  https://www.arc.id.au/Cannonballs.html

Length of the bore - For argument sake maybe go from the touch hole to the muzzle.  At 1:64 it will be really close.  What I did not find is whether the length of the breech rope is from the bulkhead ring to bulkhead ring or does that include the loop of rope through those two rings and the ends that are seized.  

There is also the following chart, but I forget where it came from or the era.  It might be from Simmons' Vade Mecum which came out in 1812.  There is a second chart below that I put together a while back but it only gives barrel lengths at various scales.   If you do not have Excel I can send as a PDF.

  Length chart.xlsx

Hi Gregory

That was my thought as well but then I looked at drawings in The Galleon by Peter Kirsch.  I have no idea if his drawings are correct but he identifies the bitt pins at the fore and main masts as knight heads.  It could be because these old ships often had carved knight's heads on top of the bitt pins.  I cannot find this term in any other source but would be interested to know if this was a common term for the bitt pins in the days of the galleons.  Richard Endsor identifies them in The Master Shipwright's Secrets on the later galleons of the 17th century as bitts,, same as in later years, not knight heads.  Maybe the terms were interchangeable at some point.

Allan

And so your metal work is every bit as well done as your wood work.  Beautiful!

Allan

Bill,

 Are you looking for which lines go through and belay to the various knightheads?  There is scant information on belaying points on later ships in the days of sail, so finding information based on contemporary sources for older vessels such as galleons could be difficult.  There is some good rigging information in Richard Endsor's books but they are English not Spanish.  Lees gives good details, but again  it is for English ships and only from 1625 on.

Allan

The breech rope is sometimes too short on the models we see.  There is scarce information on this but Caruana gives a little.   For a 9 foot 18 pounder for example the breech rope was gun was 27 feet long (5 inches at 1:64).  This is also consistent with the figure of 3 X length of bore that Dr. Phil wrote in AJohnson's topic above.  Interestingly, the breech rope, while made of the best available hemp would stretch as much as 15% after only a short period.  The gun tackle was 6 times the length of the bore and from 2" to 3" circumference depending on the caliber.  The chart below for breech rope may be helpful.  It is from Adrian Caruana's, The History of English Sea Ordnance Volume II page 385

Allan

Love the looks of your kit.  I have great admiration for Vanguard bringing out models that are quite different than the few choices available for so many years before Vanguard.  The passion that goes into designing these is quite evident.

Allan

What kind of wax? There is some discussion on wax here at MSW.  One thread can be found at https://modelshipworld.com/topic/34942-black-rigging-wax/#comment-1027227     According to the American Bee Journal, bees wax has a pH of 7 so is neutral thus a safe choice.  Others have stated that it is below 7 thus acidic.   https://americanbeejournal.com/beeswax/

Paraffin is on the alkaline side of neutral with a pH of 9 to 10 so maybe not a great choice. 

There are proponents and detractors of using wax.  It will waterproof the rope but if you use poly rope I am not sure there is any benefit.   

Allan

Had to do more than checking off just a "like" ....... truly fabulous build Daniel.   

Allan

Hi Marek

Regardless of the kit instructions, did Spanish ships have wooden hoops on top and bottom of the wooldings so they would not slip on the mast?   This was always done on British ships so I thought this might have been the case for other nations as they would have had the same problem without them.

Allan

This alternative might help.  https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-86227  The painting you posted appears to have a similar offset sprit that lies next to the stem not on top of it.

Allan

13 hours ago, ECK said:

I am amazed at your intricate knowledge of these building issues!

ECK, Thank you for the compliment but I owe it all to others, and especially one in particular.  I do not remember 90% of this stuff and it gets worse with age, but I do have a decent library that I have built up over the years that I use daily.   I had only a few books back in the day then had the fantastic opportunity to visit with David Antscherl and saw his library of books.  The light bulb went on and I started the accumulation of useful books lo these many years. 

For me, the research is as enjoyable as the build itself.

Allan

Glad to see you signing on board with this motley crew!!!

Allan

Hi George,

The Ferret 1711 was not a Bermuda rig, but rather a cutter rigged sloop built at Deptford, not Bermuda, so may not be apropos for your project if you want a Bermuda rig vessel.

Allan

9 hours ago, Erik W said:

The copper/liver of sulfur you mentioned sounds intriguing.

Erik,

Ed Tosti (author of Naiad and Young America) went into detail on LoS in his build logs at MSW and books and made a convert out of many, myself included.  I still use brass if I need hard material, but copper whenever I can.

Allan

On 3/19/2024 at 3:08 PM, ECK said:

This model plan has the iron hoops but no woldings mentioned.

According to James Lees in The Masting and Rigging English Ships of War, page 2, on the lower masts the wooldings were made of rope and the hoops on the top and bottom of the wooldings were wood that was about 1.5" wide.   The rope wooldings and wooden hoops were superseded by iron bands on ships built starting in 1800, which went under the cheeks and rubbing paunch if they were present.  In addition, when the use of iron bands began there were also, 3" wide iron hoops and these went over the cheeks, but under the paunch if present.   By the same token, there always seems to be exceptions so perhaps Flirt was indeed an exception.

Allan

You are welcome Mike.  Your comments on research are spot on!   There are great articles here at MSW in the Articles Database that will be helpful.  In addition to the great planking article by David Antscherl in the database, you may find the four part video series by Chuck Passaro on planking using strip materials (if that is what is in your kit) beneficial.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCWooJ1o3cM

Allan   

Hi Sid

I have a friend that builds railroads and full blown villages.  When he was building some new trestle bridges and buildings he bought poplar boards at Home Depot and he brought them to me to cut into various stock sizes on my mini table saw.  Took less than 20 minutes and he had enough for a year.   Hopefully someone with a small table saw is near you.  Check out if there are any ship model clubs in your area.  Sorry I can't be of more help.  If you are anywhere near SW Florida come on over and we can get it done. 🙂

Allan

Beautiful metal work Erik.

You mention painting these black which is a good choice as is blackening the brass before installing the pieces.   Some have gone to copper instead of brass as it can be blackened after being installed with liver of sulfur without discoloring the surrounding wood.  Check out McMaster Carr for sheet and strip stock of brass and copper.

https://www.mcmaster.com/products/strips/?s=brass+strips

https://www.mcmaster.com/products/strips/?s=copper+strips

Allan

1 hour ago, tom q vaxy said:

is there a species of wood which has tight grain, accepts paint well, and readily available in a variety of sizes?

Boxwood, Castello, Swiss pear, holly and Alaskan cedar are favorites for many builders.  Basswood is OK, but is relatively soft compared to the others so does not hold an edge as well if care is not taken.   There are more, but these are just to name a few.  Where are you located? There are suppliers around the world but a US supplier will not work so well if you are in a different part of the world.

Not sure what you mean by a variety of sizes.   There are thousands of pieces and sizes on any given model.  The hull alone will have nearly a hundred strakes on a larger ship, everyone of which is different when tapered and pre-shaped by heat bending or spiling.  The best kits these days seem to have all of these laser cut, but if you are scratch building you will need a few cutting tools from saw to chisel to scalpel.

Allan

3 hours ago, Gregory said:

Any idea how the lay of the rope affects the use/handling of the rope?

Hi Gregory

I have no idea if this was a traditional thing or there was some "scientific" reasoning behind this.   Lees mentions cable laid versus shroud laid rope regarding shrouds but gives no information as to why cable laid was sometimes used.  If they are indeed interchangeable, I would guess there is little, if any, effect.  Hopefully some member will have some historical information.

Allan

48 minutes ago, Blue Ensign said:

a step too far given that little of it will be seen once the thwarts are in place.

 

Hi B.E.

Understood🙂.  Hopefully this would be an easy fix for them.  The below is the Bounty launch replica and the keelson is pretty visible, but I doubt the majority of viewers of your model would notice this feature.  

Great model, great build log, thanks again for sharing.

Allan